Club with biggest amount of supporters in the world...

[kingkong]

Well folks,

I think this can be a quite interesting and certainly polemical thread...

To begin let's solely aknowledge clubs that belong to great national traditions in the sport (if we didn't do that we might have to accept unexpressive teams of China, India, Korea, Bangladesh, Pillipines, or Japan, or even United States, as being by far the most popular on Earth...)

1) In first place I think it's more than just priviledging the 7 World Champions: Uruguay, Italy, Germany, Brazil, England, Argentina, France
2) In second place the honorable vice-WChamps: Tchecoslovakia, Hungary, Sweden, Holland
3) In third, countries with no relevant titles but undoubtedly (in the present or in the past) important forces of world football: Spain, Portugal, Poland, Russia, Scotland, Servia, Croatia (any other that I forgot?)...

If we use as a criterion "the biggest amount of rooters within one city", as a Brazilian I could say that São Paulo, the third most populated city of the world, could claim that Corinthians is number 1, since it is by far the most popular club in town (of the 18 million of its inhabitants, one could say for sure that at least half of them are Corinthians supporters, what I think it is something very difficult to be surpassed by any club in any other "football town" of the world...)

If on the other hand the criterion is "the biggest amount of rooters in one country" also as a Brazilian I'd say Flamengo is the most popular football club in the planet, with its 35 million supporters (fact proved by nationwide accepted official pools - Corinthians supporters seem to peacefully accept second place with its 25 million)

Another criterion could also be the club with "the biggest amount of affiliated members", and from that point of view I would leave the battle to be fought among the European teams (Real Madrid, Barcelona, Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Bayern, Ajax, Milan, Internazionale, Juventus, you name it...)

However, if the criterion is "the most famous football club in all times and/or world wide in absolute terms" I'd say that Real Madrid (Di Stéfano's or Ronaldo's), Manchester United (the airplane crash team, or Beckham's, and specially because of the historical Brittish popularity in Asia), Beckenbauer's Bayern, Cruyff's Ajax, Puska's Honved (at its time), Garrincha's Botafogo, Eusébio's Benfica, or Pelé's Santos could be serious competitors...

What's the best criterion? Who's the most popular for you?: alea jacta est...


[For me , of course, as a Flamengo rooter, I think the "nationwide criterion" is the fairest, and I have good arguments, I believe, to defend my standpoint...]

P.S.: Click on the thumbnail below to enlarge it (the picture very possibly was taken either during the 1950 WC in Brazil or a few years later); Flamengo leads by far
the ranking for the biggest crowd ever in a club game: 170 000 people in the final of the 1962 Rio de Janeiro's Championship (Flamengo 0 x 0 Fluminense, the tie gave the title to Flamengo, and I...was there!); also, in the 1963 Rio x São Paulo Tournament final, played with open gates on May 1st of 1963 (a big final, in a holliday, and for FREE!) Flamengo beat Pelé's Santos by 3 x 2, the third goal with ten minutes left to the end...; that was certainly the biggest public ever in the planet (clubs or NTs): there were even people watching the game from the top of the gigantic roof (extra-officially it's said that 220 000 people were in the stadium that afternoon [a lot more than Brazil 1 x 2 Uruguay in 1950], of course many didn't even see the game: what the f**k, Flamengo won...)

[Ronni]

people in "less important football countries" commonly choose one among the most famous teams as their "second team" (or for some less live-football attached fans, even "first team"), and this gives teams like Real Madrid, Milan or Man-U more supporters than Flamengo or Corinthians.
You may say "these are not real supporters", but the way people in countries like Japan, China or India support these teams is the same way how people in brazilian states like Ceara, Pernambuco or Amazonas support Flamengo.
Everything just a media-dependent subject, and some kind of "glory hunting".

Anyway the same way Man-U "glory hunters" may be disappearing slowly, Flamengo's "glory hunters" are being anihilated day after day - and some surveys already start indicating Corinthians as #1 in Brazil (I don't support any of these three, so I don't care at all).

Anyway I wouldn't know the answer. Depending on the criteria, I could say the chinese Dalian, the egyptian Al Ahly or perhaps any other neither european nor south american team.

[kingkong]

I agree 100% with your 1st paragraph (people in Asia having MU, or RM or Milan (?) as a "second team" or even "first"), but absolutely not with the second...

In Brazilian territory, people in Ceará, Pernambuco, Bahia, or any other state in Brazil (even São Paulo), when they are Flamengo they are just Flamengo (very rarely have they'll even have their home teams as their second teams)...

When Flamengo plays there most of the times Flamengo's crowds exceeds in 60 to 90% the home crowds. Even in São Paulo State (excluding the city of São Paulo of course) Flamengo and Corinthians is a 50/50 split...

Very probably (I might be wrong) when you came to Brazil you adopted Corinthians as "your" Brazilian team, or possibly had some good "paulistas" friends...

However the polls that point them as nr. 1 in Brazil are nowadays disregarded even by them as absolutely unnofficial and obviously biased (the only valid one and widely accepted is the IBOPE, and that's where I took my numbers from)

In the same way and even funnier is the affirmation about the "annihilation" of Flamengo or MU's crowds (which to someone who doesn't know you could sound more like "progroms" or "concentration camps mass executions"; better take care with malicious "interpretation", isn't it?)

Corinthians crowds are very inferior nationwide (they don't fill stadiums like Flamengo outside of São Paulo) and what the "opportunistic" polls do is to take advantadge of the bad spell of Flamengo in the last years and the good one of Corinthians in the same period to convey numbers that don't apply at all to reality...

[Ronni]

Originally Posted by kingkong

I agree 100% with your 1st paragraph (people having MU, or RM or Milan as a "second team" or even "first"), but absolutely not with the second...

People in Ceará, Pernambuco, Bahia, or any other state in Brazil (even São Paulo), when they are Flamengo they are just Flamengo (very rarely have they'll have their home teams even as their second teams)...

You shouldn't underestimate the fact that we're already living different times. About 30 years ago in Brazil there was nothing but the big Rio media covering sports at higher level. Nowadays people do care more about their local leagues.
You mentioned Sao Paulo - ok, you can even consider the borders of the state of Rio de Janeiro. Places in Minas Gerais close to the border were widely dominated by fans of Rio's teams - Flamengo, Fluminense, Vasco and Botafogo. Nowadays this is still the case, but despite of being also physically closer to Rio than to Belo Horizonte, some years ago people in those places started being interested in the Minas Gerais league, and each one started picking their favorite team. Now you already have most fans having Atletico and Cruzeiro as 2nd team, and even some who have these as 1st team and the Rio de Janeiro team of their fathers as 2nd team. Of course Minas Gerais is a stronger influence center than many other states, but this is a trend in the whole country. You commonly find much more fans of teams from Rio outside the state of Rio under people who are not that much attached to football. People who really care about football are each day caring more about their own local teams.

This is the same as in the "minor football" countries. If you make a poll, you'll find lots of Real, Milan and Man-U fans in Japan for example. But if you take who really cares, you'll find much more Kashima, Verdy and etc. And the trend is that these ones finish by dominating the scene. The reason? Some years ago football meant Real, Milan and Man-U. A media thing. In Japan this is already changing, in other countries this change won't have started yet.

[kingkong]

Sorry, once more I had connection problems and only could finnish my post later. Read it over please...

In addition, I'd like to say that in spite of the natural growth of the minor centers, the cultural influence of Rio is still too big (at least in terms of touristic impact and football culture): whenver you have the chance to watch live on TV a game for the Brazilian Championship when Flamengo faces its adversaries at their home just listen to the incredible "roar" that comes from the tribunes (even if the stadium is the Morumbi, Mineirão or Beira-Rio, and the teams are Internacional, Atlético or Corinthians...)

[Majid]

I think its manchester united with biggest supporters world wide, Which is also the richest club in the whole world.

[Xikunahity]

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[SE7E]

Originally Posted by Xikunahity

well its inevitable that corinthians and flamengo have the biggest fans base in brasil

but they are not the best at all

i attended the game galo x flamengo once in Cerejão (a well known flamengo's territory), 3/4 of stadium packed with flamengo fans, the other 1/4 with enough galo fans, i tell you the latters (including myself) commanded the chantings in the stadium for most of the time in a tide game. i really felt that some of flamengo fans were like going to the cinema on sunday.

in 99, i went to the first 2 decision games agaisnt corintians. First in mineirao, they said to be about 90.000 ppl, but i never saw it so packed, we couldnt sit in that huge stadium. a week later, when i would see the 'great' corintians fans, they didnt filled it up, and got not impressed at all.

how many times i went to beautiful packed Mineirão, and when i would turn the tv i would see most of the time zoomed images of some certain concentraded fans of other teams avoiding the empty spaces, when they would only mention the Mineirão.

I might agree with you that Atl. Mineiro's fans are the BEST in Brazil along with CORINTHIANS' Fiel... but not better

[Xikunahity]

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[Xikunahity]

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[Xikunahity]

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[SE7E]

Originally Posted by Xikunahity

did you see remo fans this year?
they knocked the house down

Agreed too.

[SE7E]

Originally Posted by Xikunahity

they have more custommers, its diferent

Yup!

[inyourworld]

Yea United fans arnt really hardcore but they do sell 70000 tickets to evry game even in the league cup to be fair to them. Liverpool have really passionate local fans Anfield is one of the best Atmospheres around. I dont really get the opportunity to watch Brazillian football in England but from what iv hered on this forum I might try and watch more it sounds impressive

[Ronni]

Originally Posted by kingkong

whenver you have the chance to watch live on TV a game for the Brazilian Championship when Flamengo faces its adversaries at their home just listen to the incredible "roar" that comes from the tribunes (even if the stadium is the Morumbi, Mineirão or Beira-Rio, and the teams are Internacional, Atlético or Corinthians...)

I don't know where the "roar" comes from, but I've been in the stadium in Brazil, Argentina, Italy, Germany and France several times. In Brazil I watched to 3 Flamengo matches: one in Rio (against Botafogo), one in Belo Horizonte (against Atletico) and one in Salvador (against Bahia). Except for the one in Rio, in the other two the Flamengo fans were a normal visitors minority. I've been in a couple of similar matches in Belo Horizonte - Atletico vs. Corinthians and Atletico vs. Guarani (!!!!!), and the amount of Flamengo fans wasn't more than the first, and not much more than the second. I would say ... most of them should be Cruzeiro fans. Note that most polls say that in Belo Horizonte there are as many Flamengo fans as America-MG fans, but what I noticed is that you don't see as many Flamengo fans in the stadium against Atletico or Cruzeiro like America-MG fans (I've been in all these matches).

It's a different situation than the one I experienced with Internazionale and Juventus in Italy, and with Bayern in Germany. Ok, in Europe there are more fans following their teams in other cities due to their financial possibilities and shorter distances, but still the "home pitch" effect like on the matches I watched in Belo Horizonte or Salvador, against Flamengo and Corinthians wasn't the same.

I would say that a team like Juventus have a more impressive amount of "own" fans in Italy, or Bayern in Germany, than Flamengo or Corinthians in Brazil. I have no idea how it works in the UK or in Spain. In Argentina the big Buenos Aires teams have lots of real fans in the whole country, but Buenos Aires is already a large portion of Argentina - more than what happens in these other countries.

Originally Posted by kingkong

In Brazilian territory, people in Ceará, Pernambuco, Bahia, or any other state in Brazil (even São Paulo), when they are Flamengo they are just Flamengo (very rarely have they'll even have their home teams as their second teams)...

we shouldn't confuse people who are really involved in "football business" - i.e. going to the stadium, reading newspapers etc - with people who answer to polls. The clothing-washing aunt Maria in Pernambuco will say "sou Framengo", but her 16 years old son might be Sport Recife. On the poll they're 1-1.

Originally Posted by kingkong

When Flamengo plays there most of the times Flamengo's crowds exceeds in 60 to 90% the home crowds. Even in São Paulo State (excluding the city of São Paulo of course) Flamengo and Corinthians is a 50/50 split...

This is not my experience at all.
Is there any brazilian tv showing that? The Mangueirao, the Arruda, the Castelao, the Mineirao, the Independencia, the Fonte Nova, the Barradao, the Beira-Rio, the Olimpico, the Arena, the Pinheirao with 60% to 90% Flamengo fans against home crowds? No way at all!!!!
You don't get that even in the Serra Dourada.
Perhaps in the Boca do Jacare. But there you find also fans from Sao Paulo or Minas Gerais teams sharing the stadium with the host fans. But if you're brazilian you know as much as I do that Brasilia doesn't count.

Flamengo is that strong only outside the capitals, where the state specific media isn't yet strong like the national one.

Originally Posted by kingkong

Very probably (I might be wrong) when you came to Brazil you adopted Corinthians as "your" Brazilian team, or possibly had some good "paulistas" friends...

You are wrong. I was never in the Pacaembu or Morumbi myself, and the few paulistas friends I have (and I know their team) support Palmeiras, as far as I remember. And I know someone from the "interior" of Parana who supports Sao Paulo.
The team I like the most in Brazil is also Galo (Atletico-MG). Follow their fans a couple of times and you'll start liking them too.

Originally Posted by kingkong

However the polls that point them as nr. 1 in Brazil are nowadays disregarded even by them as absolutely unnofficial and obviously biased (the only valid one and widely accepted is the IBOPE, and that's where I took my numbers from)

The results of fans polls vary a lot from year to year, and the error thresholds are very high (you'd need huge samples) since there are too many variables. A "fan" is not a "fan" and you can't quantify this that easily. You may have fanatic people who never go to the stadium, and still have people who don't really care but still follow their friends a couple of times to a match. So even the presence in the stadiums isn't reliable if you don't take an enormous sample and make a pretty complicated questionnaire - what nobody actually does.

Originally Posted by kingkong

In the same way and even funnier is the affirmation about the "annihilation" of Flamengo or MU's crowds (which to someone who doesn't know you could sound more like "progroms" or "concentration camps mass executions"; better take care with malicious "interpretation", isn't it?)

indeed I wanted to sound funny.
We all know that there are lots of people who really don't care much about football, but who still would answer to a poll. These people are commonly fans of the team with the best visibility on the media (like Aunt Maria in Pernambuco). Flamengo - together with some others - was this one for decades. These Flamengo fans are disappearing from the map due to the pogrom of the bad football administration of the club.

Aunt Maria will continue being a "Framengo" fan until she dies. She has no idea if her Framengo is doing good or not. She just gets spotted by her son every now and then, but his team isn't even playing her Framengo, so he has no arguments for convincing her.

Originally Posted by kingkong

Corinthians crowds are very inferior nationwide (they don't fill stadiums like Flamengo outside of São Paulo) and what the "opportunistic" polls do is to take advantadge of the bad spell of Flamengo in the last years and the good one of Corinthians in the same period to convey numbers that don't apply at all to reality...

Flamengo fans don't fill stadiums outside Rio. Actually Flamengo fans don't fill stadiums even in Rio.

Wait a couple of years. They still won't fill the stadiums, since they won't win so many fans outside Sao Paulo, but there will be lots of Aunt Marias saying "sou Curintias". And their sons will still support Sport Recife.