Why isn't a Serbian representative allowed to speak at the UN Millennium Summit?

[Ivan]

Yugoslavia, one of the original members of UN gets no respect whatsoever! UN has gone down to gutter sh*t, and it isn't worth the damn building it has in its name! Kofi Annan is America's biggest ass kisser and UN has now become nothing more but just an extended hand of the US Imperialism! A damn shame if you ask me!

The world would be a much better place ako bi sutra neko samo bacio jednu vecu granatu i pobio sve u zgradi!

[seka]

"Away from soccer" should be your pick.


Since this is a legal issue, just to let you know:

1. There's no Serbia as a UN recognized member.

2. If you meant ZRJ, there's also no ZRJ as a UN recognized member.

3. The Yugoslavia you were talking about was SFRJ, which fell apart. This country does not exist anymore. Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia... have all asked again to be a part of UN and they were approved.

4. ZRJ has not issued that plea, since ZRJ wants to be THE SOLE LEGAL SUCCESSOR of the old SFRJ, which is not approved by inernational community (for more than 5 years already). So, ZRJ AS SUCH is not a member of UN. ZRJ was participating in the UN under the SFRJ flag - I guess this is over now.

4. The reason you want to be the SOLE successor of SFRJ is mainly because of MONEY that SFRJ had in foreign banks and is now frozen, since there's no agreement between the 5 new states on who the successor is - all of them or ZRJ only. If all 5 were legal sucessors, the money would be divided in 5 parts. That's what ZRJ refuses.

5. That's the exact reason why ZRJ and Slovenia still don't have official diplomatic contacts. SLOVENIA has already taken its share of former SFRJ DEBT and PAID IT, so we want our share of money (there's not only money, also real property of former SFRJ in foreign states), too. ZRJ refuses to have diplomatic contacts with Slovenia if Slovenia doesn't recognize that.

6. We don't recognize ZRJ as the sole legal successor of SFRJ. SLOVENIA claims ALL THE FORMER REPUBLICS (now: new states) are legal successors by 1/6 each, ZRJ having 2/6 as of 2 republics.

Ivan, this is international law and state interests, I don't want a political debate on it.

[This message has been edited by seka (edited 06 September 2000).]

[Ivan]

damnit seka! must you be everywhere! sheesh you are all over this board. I post on Yugo thread, you are there. I post on Cro thread, you are there. I post on anger thread, you are there! do you have a life? j/k

Anyway, mr.lawyer, I'm sure you'd like to talk law but the fact of the matter is that this is a political case. UN is a political tool/organization. Just like EU. They have other aspirations certainly, such as economical, but the major part of them is politics.

1)I know there is no Serbia as a recognized UN member. There is no Montenegro, there is no SRJ (or ZRJ as you like to call it), there is no SFRJ! Do you see a problem here? A country exists yet it has no status and no right in UN! That can't be! Arafat will speak at the conference and he doesn't even have a sovereign country! (I'm surprised they aren't letting Hashim Thaci speak)

This is what pisses me of in all of this. The whole world just wants to ignore Serbia/Yugoslavia and pretend like it does not exist! But that won't solve the problem. It never will! By putting crippling sanctions on the country they are basically creating a black hole, out of which everything bad comes out and affects everyone around it (imagine how it affects the people living in the 'black hole')

Basically, the point of my anger is that UN is not allowing a represenative of a sovereign country of 10 million people to speak! (and not like such person as Bulatovic or any other of Slobo's cronies would have anything smart to say, but that's besides the point) We are going to have to be defended by such people as Castro. (that's sad!)

And I think the former republics waived their right to get the money that belong to SFRJ, when they proclaimed independence from SFRJ. Serbian and Montenegro were the only republics that wanted to stay together in the SFRJ (by the way, how come you don't say ZFRJ?).

But like you said it's a legal issue. However, I might not be a lawyer or even a student of law, but this sure as hell does not look legal to me that we are not allowed to have a representative speak.

[seka]

Now go back and read my post again.

1. ZRJ (Z means Zvezna or Savezna in your language) DID NOT ISSUE A PLEA TO BE ACCEPTED IN UN as a sovereign country. They, well - you - want to be the legal successor of SFRJ (S means Socialistièna or Socialistièka in your language, F stands for Federalna here, not S) that means that ZRJ wants to take SFRJ's place in the UN.

2. There was a special comission of experts regarding this issue of legal succession. They (I think it was called Badinter's comission cause Mr. Badinter lead it) concluded - and you must know here that this was BEFORE any NATO shit or anything, I think it was in 1992 - that SFRJ FELL APART, which legally means NOBODY can be the SOLE successor of it.

It's like the states in USA would decide to go apart and North Carolina would want to be the successor of the whole USA...

In your language: Badinter je zakljuèio, da je SFRJ RASPALA a ne da su se republike OTCEPILE.

This is utterly important. If ONE state would decide to leave USA, it would be perfectly normal it goes its own way. But in our case, NOBODY WANTED A FEDERATION ANYMORE. Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia...

So, Badinter said each republic should get 1/6 of the former joint business.

ZRJ always refused to act so. Having more power than other republics, Serbian diplomats managed to get Macedonia's and Croatia's recognition as the sole successor and wanted to do the same with Slovenia ("Ako nas ne priznajeta kao jedine naslednike SFRJ, mi sa vama neæemo imati nikavih diplomatskih kontakta.") ZRJ even said it won't recognize Slovenia as a sovereign state (despite the fact that THE WHOLE WORLD already did) if Slovenia doesn't recognize ZRJ as a sole sucessor.


So, to go back to UN business. You could be there in a nanosecond if you wanted - as ZRJ, but not as the successor of SFRJ. That's why your politicians don't want to issue a plea (as every other new state has), cause you'd lose A LOT OF MONEY AND PROPERTY of the former SFRJ that hasn't been divided yet. That's politics, of course, but you choose it yourself.

Slovenia is, of course, obstructing you - on the basis of Badinter's commision and on the basis of the fact that we already took our share of former SFRJ debt and paid it. It's in our interest to get the $$$ as well as it is in yours. ZRJ has many supporters (cause, as you see, it's all politics), including Russia and France, but USA supports Slovenia.

This time, the whole world minus USA is on your side, despite the facts (Badinter, our share of debt paid), so you aren't no victim, quite the contrary - we are. This part is politics... Ljubljana is not that powerful than Belgrade... That's how you cracked Croats and Macedonians, cause they were in even deeper shit (Croats had Tudjman, who wasn't loved internationally so noone backed them up, Macedonians have a fight with Greeks and need Yugo as an allie, rather than enemy...). THIS IS POLITICS and you guys are damn good about it ...


Furthermore, Slovenia even invited Djukanovic to be there as our guest and he'll probably speak. We're backing up Montenegrians to get some kind of "Arafat" status... WE AIN'T SO BAD EITHER ...

What you can see is everybody is looking at his own interests.

[Ivan]

Thank you for clearing that confusion about the "S's" and the "Z's"

Who cares what UN decided! Whether Yugoslavia "fell apart" or just got smaller through several seccesations. The State Department last year said that there were 100,000 dead Albanians, which all of us by now was a big lie (some of us knew it back then).

Your analogy of North Carolina would best fit if we were talking about Slovenia wanting to be recognized as the sole successor of SFRJ. Its not very fair to use an example of USA, because USA has 50 states, SFRJ had 6.

As for that money that has been "frozen", I have my doubts if that money still exists. After this long.... like we would say "neko je chapio"

We might have a lot of friends, but none of our "friends" are brave enough to do anything, becuase our "#1" enemy is USA, the most powerful country in the world! So no matter what, after every single incident that happens, in which the result is the Serbian people getting screwed we can't help but not think that the world is against us!
That's why Bora Corba's song "CCCC" has so much meaning and emotions, when he says things like:

Ne ma gore tragedije
nego biti iz Srbije
Danas ceo svet navija
da se razbije Jugoslavija

By the way, you still haven't answered my question. Do you think its fair that a country is not allowed to have its representative at the UN summit?

PS: you are not doing Serbs any favor by "inviting" Djukanovic to speak. In fact its better if no Yugoslav representative speaks at all then Djukanovic speaking!

[seka]

To answer you:

1. No, I don't think it's right. Especialy since they didn't block you out by saying you (meaning ZRJ) are not an official member, but by refusing to give Bulatovic a visa to enter US. This is no way to treat ANY country, we're talking diplomacy here. My personal opinion of course is the same as Slovenia's official opinion - we have nothing against ZRJ in the UN, but we are against ZRJ taking former SFRJ's place. I think ZRJ should gave its place, but should ASK to get it AS "ZRJ, the new country".


You see, I'd love to see ZRJ there full time. But my country's own interests conflict with yours - we don't want you in the UN in a way that you'd like to be there, and you don't want to go in the UN in a way that we'd like you to... Kinda stupid, ha So, I would be the first to support ZRJ's decision to renounce its tensions towards the status of the sole successor of the SFRJ and enter the UN as a new country. But that won't happen.

BTW, Kostunica has 40%, regarding to public opinion measuring. Slobo has 20%. If Kostunica wins, you'll be accepted normally in a nanosecond by EVERY country. The same happened to CRO (changed Tudjman for Mesic). Did you know that Tudjman NEVER EVER officially met Clinton, despite that it was Tudjman's eterrnal wish. Mesic and Racan went to Clinton after 6 months in the office...


Furthermore: That explains that Bora is wrong - again. He's too pathetic and you'll realize that more each day you spend abroad. Nobody hates Serbs, USA hates Slobo. It was the same with Croatia.

Let me only tell you sth else: if it was true that everybody wanted YU to go apart, they'd back Slovenia and Croatia immediately. But it didn't happen. Americans and all other international community said their interests are that Ex-YU stays united, thus giving Slobo free hands to start the tanks...

Now, they see we all can be separated and still be friends, live peacefully and democratically (SLO, CRO for now), so they want to get rid of Slobo IN ORDER TO HAVE COMPLETE STABILITY IN THIS REGION... Cause Slobodan Milosevic is an element of instability, that's why they're holding all of your country on ice at present time.

You also have to know - if you care to be fair - that ZRJ has Russia as "big brother", which is in many ways very good for you, but you cannot expect you'll be adored by the US for it. ZRJ is not that "miracle" who would bring Russia and US together... Some countries have bigger friends here, others there. It's normal. If my friend X is your enemy, and I say I like X more than you, you won't want to be my friend... That's perfectly normal and there's no conspiracy in it. You'll never see Russians complaining cause USA doesn't like 'em...


2. I didn't mean that Slovenians are doing ZRJ a favour. If you noticed, our interests conflict, so we're not THAT stupid to do you favors... ZRJ country doesn't want to recognize SLO, why would we then help them?! The reasons Slovenia invited Djukanovic are two: a) trying to show the world that we support democratic forces in Montenegro over dictatorship of Milosevic; and b) to show Belgrade we're not a country to ***k with... Those two smileys I put in my previous post, meant "really bitchy, ha?", but diplomacy is a bitch, you see...

Slovenia supports Djukanovic thus showing Belgrade we're not pussies like other republics who renounced their claims to that 1/6 they are perfectly entitled to. But Belgrade "broke" Croatia and Macedonia, for reasons I mentioned in previous posts. I think Bosnia also bended down under the Belgrade pressure, cause Belgrad was more powerful and threatened this and that if they don't do as Belgrade says... Slovenia in the contrary, is making moves to show Belgrade they WILL NEVER GET US to renounce.

These are facts, not personal political beliefs. You can decide by yourself, who is right and who isn't - it won't matter anyway. If it was about right and wrong, they'd follow Badinter rule and everything would be over now. Everybody would have 1/6, ZRJ 2/6. Now, nobody has nothing and I guess it'll stay like that for quite some time... It's not about right or wrong, it's about POLITICAL POWER. Belgrade managed to crack CRO, MAC, BOS, but not SLO.


However, you think twice about this:
- do you think Slovenians are so stupid not to want to negotiate it and rather have nothing?
- do you think Slobo is willing to discuss anything with Slovenes?
- or do you maybe think the same as I do, which is we could solve this in mutual advantage by sitting down and starting a dialogue? When being stubborn brings you 0 now or 10 after ???? years, a normal person would use his brain and accept 8 now, don't you think?


[This message has been edited by seka (edited 07 September 2000).]

[Ivan]

1) No, I don't think it's right.

Good, then that's all I wanted to know. We have nothing else to talk about

Seriously, don't feel bad about writing so much hehe

The perception is that the whole world is against us. Of course not the whole world, but the majority of the world stood by and watched silently as 19 of the most advanced/developed countries in the world bombed us. Countries such as Croatia, Slovenia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc.... were all to eager to justify the aggression and help NATO. Of course a lot of people of those countries (not including ex-yu) were against it. But the politicians run the country, not the people.

Kostunica can have 99% lead in the polls. Come election time, lets see what happens.

And if magically he does win, I do think a lot of things will change positively almost overnight. If not... then the perception that the world is against us will just continue to grow.....

BTW, Cekoslovacka se "raspala", a 4 republike su se "odsepile" od SFRJ.

[seka]

4 republics out of 6... That says something about falling apart, don't you think. A federation, where 2/3 of its members are against it, can be considered ***ked up...

About NATO: that's the political power again... I personally felt it was disgusting for us to open our air to NATO planes, but Aviano (where they took off) is very near SLO and we're small. It would be a stupid political move to go against "all the big boys" (as you said it right) to protect a country that doesn't even want to recognize us...

That's reality. I can assure you our politicians were against bombing, too, but one thing is your personal opinion and the other is your country's interests.

If you remember, Croatia didn't stop JLA tanks at its borders with Serbia, when they went to attack SLO, despite the fact that we and Croats had an agreement about it... They just weren't capable to do it at that time...


What ex-Yu countries are doing wrong in my personal opinion is that they don't solve their problems and act as allies on some international issues. Ex-Yu had a lot of political power in Europe and 3rd world countries.

In international politics, if you're small, you're only worth as much as your allies are. US is a power by itself, everybody else needs connections.

[Ivan]

The thing that comforts me is the fact that almost all people that I know (not including Serbs) were against the bombing. They found it stupid, unnecessary, etc... A lot of intellectuals around the world also spoke up against the bombing and important figures such as ex-US president Jimmy Carter and even the Pope himself condemned it!

I think ex-yu countries are bound to eventually reform some sort of a loose confederation. Something similar to the EU perhaps. But that can happen only after all the political heads of this era have gone. And this includes Kucan, Mesic (yes, he's been very much active in all of this), Izetbegovic, and Milosevic.

Some optimists think that eventually all European countries will integrate into EU, but unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you view it) many indications point to EU's failure and eventual dissolvement.

[seka]

I also think EU has some big problems. First of all, we're NATIONAL countries, unlike USA, where everybody is the same and the only major difference is North v. South.

Other thing is decision-making. When you'll have 25 countries in EU (15 yrs), consensus will be impossible.

The constitution should be passed. The representation of smaller countries is a special problem here: I like the idea of two-houses Parliament, like USA (Congress has two houses, first proportional representation by population of the countries and second - the Senate - fixed places, where each state has 2 senators no matter how big it is). German foreign minister Joschka Fisher was speaking about that couple of months ago and I loved his ideas.

EU has lots of problems which will only grow with increased number of member states.


I also think ex-YU countries should at least make common market, like the EU has. Making business with people makes respect and cooperation, thus peaceful cohabitation.

[Fantastic]

Get ried of F****** moron dictator Miloševiè and nobady will hate or attack you anymore.
Don`t you see that he is leading you in hell.
He is a criminal that should and must be arested.

[Ivan]

Yea buddy, thanks for your input! In case you didn't know, its easier said then done!

Croats had to wait for their "#1" to die! If Sranjo was still alive, do you think Mesic would be the president now?

And why should the world hate the people of Serbia if Milosevic is the dictator? He has perhaps support in 1 out of every 5 Serbs - and that 1 is either an old person that sits in front of TV and watches Dnevnik everyday, or a village person who only gets RTS 1 & 2 and doesn't know any better.

Seka - EU hasn't even began to experience any real problems!

[This message has been edited by Ivan (edited 10 September 2000).]

[seka]

Ivan, I though this might interest you:

Kucan said on the UN summit, that he eagerly awaits opposition in ZRJ to win and when this happens he will, together with other representatives of ex-Yu countries, immediately proceed to:

1. issue a demand for all sanctions on ZRJ to be abolished

2. issue a proceeding for ZRJ to become a member of the United Nations - only not as SFRJ's legal successor


So, when you change your stupid regime, we'll gona 1. help you and 2. put you against the wall to renounce your claims.

Kucan is a smart little fellow

[Ivan]

seka - that's cool. But we understand that Slovenija is a small country, so we don't want you guys to work so hard and strain yourselves by offering us two favors. We'll just take favor #1

Honestly, I don't know - we have to wait and see.

2 weeks to go.

[seka]

I heard Savo Miloševiæ gave his shirt to the opposition as a gesture of support.


As favors go, you know us, always love to help