Brazilian national anthem?

[Ronni]

Despite of the suggestion of its president Joseph Blatter, FIFA decided to keep the national anthems being played before every match in 2006.
Blatter's argument against the national anthems was the incidents during the matches Switzerland vs. Turkey when both anthems were booed by the opponent's fans. The same has been occurring all over the world.

In many countries the national team is considered as representative of the whole nation, and its successes are a source of nationalism and a prove of the strength of the nation.
Turkey seems to be one of these countries, and the fact that their jersey often presents Turkey's flag instead of a symbol of the Turkish Football Federation fits well in the apparent mentality of the players, who seem to be fighting for the pride of the nation.

I have experienced however that in many countries this is not the case. The national team isn't seen as a representative of the nation, but simply of its football. This seems to be the case in England, France, Germany and many other countries.

In Brazil I notice still a different feeling. The "selecao" seems to be seen as an institution brazilians are proud of, as the most successful national team in the world, and as something that just "belongs" to them. As if it were a part of the brazilian cultural heritage. Different from the expectations towards clubs, the "selecao" isn't expected to "fight to death" or "defend the honour", but to present "a show", and expressions brazilian fans like for the "selecao" such as "futebol moleque" wouldn't fit at all in the mentality of a nation that defends its strength through the national team. Instead, the expression "raça" does exist - however it's loved at club level. This stresses the point that the selecao isn't supposed to "fight for the honour of the nation". In Brazil the clubs seem to take that responsibility toward their fans.

This is my (long) theory.
Now my question to you. If you agree that the selecao is seen as a "loved institution" in Brazil instead of a representative of the nation, don't you think that, before Brazil's matches, instead of playing the brazilian national anthem, they should play something like the anthem of the "selecao"? There is an "unofficial" one, that "Pra frente Brasil" most brazilians know. It's a product of the dictatorial period but still a symbol of the selecao.

Would you find it more interesting to see Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and co singing "parece que todo o Brazil deu a mão ..." instead of "e o sol da liberdade em raios fúlgidos ..."?

The text of this song follows.

Pra Frente Brasil

... milhões em ação
Pra frente Brasil, do meu coração
Todos juntos vamos pra frente Brasil
Salve a seleção!
De repente é aquela corrente pra frente,
parece que todo o Brasil deu a mão!
Todos ligados na mesma emoção, tudo é um só coração!
Todos juntos vamos pra frente Brasil!
Salve a seleção!
Todos juntos vamos pra frente Brasil!
Salve a seleção!


And if this anthem is booed anywhere, it would be legitimate - the other fans can show their hatred against the brazilian national team instead of the brazilian nation.
In the same way, if people applaud, they're applauding brazilian football, and not the brazilian nation.

No matter if it can happen or not, what do you think about the idea?

[Gremio]

interesting, but, a bit over thought.

They're 'national' teams, and thus, inherently represent the nation, even if you say nations football only, doest really make a difference because people dont think that way. They see the turks team and think turkey, the turks, not 'representatives of Turkeys football prowess', but not 'Turkeys the country, its 'politics' etc.

national anthems should be played, they are represnting the country in their behaviour etc., not just the countrys soccer but not the country or whatever.

as for people booing, its sad, but they're are alot sadder things in the world

[Ronni]

Originally Posted by Gremio

interesting, but, a bit over thought.
They're 'national' teams, and thus, inherently represent the nation, even if you say nations football only, doest really make a difference because people dont think that way.

Don't you think in Brazil it's even the opposite - when the populace think about "Brazil" they even remember more the "selecao" than any other institution? I'm not talking about intelectuals - they won't feel like being represented by football players anyway and won't care.

Originally Posted by Gremio

They see the turks team and think turkey, the turks, not 'representatives of Turkeys football prowess', but ot 'Turkeys the country, its 'politics' etc.

and is this desirable at all?

Originally Posted by Gremio

national anthems should be played, they are represnting the country in their behaviour etc., not just the countrys soccer but not the country or whatever.

Actually we should discuss how legitimate it is when an institution like a football federation pretends they can represent a country and uses for that the national anthem. If you think some deeply, you'll realize they're not a part of the government, thus not elected by the folk nor hired on an official contest, so they're cheating democratic rules. It's as if companies like "Vale do Rio Doce", "Petrobras" or whatever were playing the brazilian anthem and affirming they represent the country. In most countries it would be even unconstitutional.

Originally Posted by Gremio

as for people booing, its sad, but they're are alot sadder things in the world

like football rivalries invading other areas?

[Ilovefootie]

Interesting, but I guess it's not a good thing to do. I agree with all you said, but seleçao it's a NT after all. It represents a nation. So the anthem should be the brazilian one. The seleçao is one of the reasons most people feel proud about being brasilian. And it's actually one of the few things we can be proud of. It's an institution, it's brasilian's religion. It makes brasilians feel proud about themselves. And it's one of the few things that foreigners admire about Brasil. they have some prejudice against brasilians. Cos of the mixed race, the poor ppl in the favelas, i dont know. and when it comes about football, they have to admire us. so that makes brasilians proud. it was the same thing about Ayrton Senna. why did we love him? why do we still love him? cos he was the best. he showed the best of Brasil. he carried a brasilian flag everytime he won a race. we heard brasil national anthem almost every sunday. if politics and economy make us ashamed, sports make us proud. that's why the national anthem should be played. the seleçao is the brasilian most loved treasure. by brasilians, and by foreigners.

[Ilovefootie]

dont get me wrong. i'm not a crazy fanatic. i dont think we should forget all our social and economic problems just cos we are 5 times world champions. i'm just proud of my national team. and it's good to have some happiness every 4 years.

[Orgulho Judeu]

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

dont get me wrong. i'm not a crazy fanatic. i dont think we should forget all our social and economic problems just cos we are 5 times world champions. i'm just proud of my national team. and it's good to have some happiness every 4 years.

Exactly what i was going to say...we have fuebol but we have issues

[Gremio]

Originally Posted by Ronni

Don't you think in Brazil it's even the opposite - when the populace think about "Brazil" they even remember more the "selecao" than any other institution? I'm not talking about intelectuals - they won't feel like being represented by football players anyway and won't care

- Brasil, being the most passionate soccer country in the world, yes. What im saying is not really an opinion pro or con, just speaking the reality of the situation (NT inherently represents the Nation). And even along your arguments lines (what i think you're getting at), Brasil issue isnt soccer uniting or disuniting, or a false image of Brasil through soccer. Its the way class divides people. Look at Rio (worst problems in the whole country), why is there so much trouble there? because the city's residents are not united into being ppl from Rio, the attitude has always been more like, 'if it doesnt affect me ill face the beach and not bother looking back at the city and the problem" (sounds alot better in portuguese)

Originally Posted by Ronni

and is this desirable at all?

- no, but it is simply true

Originally Posted by Ronni

Actually we should discuss how legitimate it is when an institution like a football federation pretends they can represent a country and uses for that the national anthem. If you think some deeply, you'll realize they're not a part of the government, thus not elected by the folk nor hired on an official contest, so they're cheating democratic rules. It's as if companies like "Vale do Rio Doce", "Petrobras" or whatever were playing the brazilian anthem and affirming they represent the country. In most countries it would be even unconstitutional.

-The federation isnt pretending anything. it is simply common sense and human nature that the national team inherently represents the brasilian people to a certain degree, AS WELL AS of course, our soccer skill. It isnt something 'we' or the Federation is choosing to do, or 'pretending' to do. It is reality, because after all, we are all human and not all peoples have picked up an almanac and studied the detailed info of the nation brasil, anymore than YOU have studied the details of the other 200 countries on the globe. Its simply human nature and perception. Someone sees the brasilian national team playing dirty or some other scandal, and it will result in a bad image for brasil and the brasilian people, not just brasilian soccer. thats just human nature, we judge, usually quickly, and partially (unfortunately) .

Originally Posted by Ronni

like football rivalries invading other areas?

- I was thinking more along the lines of skeleton babies and children in africa, people straving and freezing to death in 2005 etc.

[Ronni]

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

Interesting, but I guess it's not a good thing to do. I agree with all you said, but seleçao it's a NT after all. It represents a nation.
So the anthem should be the brazilian one.

I don't agree at all that a football team can represent the whole nation.
Do you see the United States when Bruce Arena's team is playing? No? So foreigners won't see Brazil when they see Parreira's team playing.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

The seleçao is one of the reasons most people feel proud about being brasilian. And it's actually one of the few things we can be proud of. It's an institution, it's brasilian's religion. It makes brasilians feel proud about themselves. And it's one of the few things that foreigners admire about

This time I have not only to disagree with you, but to say that your affirmation is in my opinion COMPLETELY wrong (sorry, this is not my style, but this is what I feel here).
Brazilians are not admired by foreigners because of the football. It's just seen as a characteristics of brazilian culture. They admire brazilian for many other things, for things that really matter and, even if stereotyped, at least belong to a general personality and thus to concrete aspects.
Brazil does have an individual image for foreigners - football may have helped this to establish - but still this is based on brazilian culture, way of life etc.
And in a very positive way. "Brazil" is a concept that is seen in a very sympathetic way. And what concerns football, what foreigners admire brazilians for, is not how strong the national team is, but how brazilians feast and cheer. This means they're interested in the brazilian people, and not in the 20 or 30 football players. The brazilian people is responsible for the "sympathetic concept" - and this is much more a reason for pride than the strength of a football team, since this is for real!

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

Brasil. they have some prejudice against brasilians. Cos of the mixed race, the poor ppl in the favelas, i dont know. and when it comes about football, they have to admire us. so that makes brasilians proud.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Nobody has prejudice against brazilians! And the affirmation that the mixed race is a reason for prejudice is absurd! In Brazil you may have some prejudice against it, but in the rest of the world (perhaps not in Argentina!) it's very positively seen. Brazil is the real "melting pot" in the world. Because brazilians don't care where they come from - they're brazilians. A black brazilian, a brazilian with japanese origins or one with german ones are all brazilians, and they don't feel themselves as related to their "blood roots". Even in the US you see people proud of being irish, or italian or whatever. Except for some few areas in the south of the country, Brazilians commonly have no connection to their origins. And they have a history of tollerance, as people from different origins mixed peacefully with each others. This is the core of a working modern society.
The myth of the "pure race" as the ideal was buried 60 years ago. Brazil is the symbol of the opposite. And is admired for this.

Nobody admire brazilians for their football. They admire Ronaldinho, Ronaldo & co. But not the brazilian folk. And no foreigner will consider you more because your country is stronger at football. They really don't. But they will see you with different eyes because you come from a tollerant, modern, easy-going and still progressive society.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

it was the same thing about Ayrton Senna. why did we love him? why do we still love him? cos he was the best. he showed the best of Brasil. he carried a brasilian flag everytime he won a race. we heard brasil national anthem almost every sunday.

It's always positive to a country to get some kind of visibility in the international press due to sport successes. But believe me, nobody ever thought that Senna was showing the best of anything. Again, he offered Brazil visibility, so people remember Brazil exists, and Brazil can become a definition point for people. But the brazilian people are the ones who are responsible for filling that definition. Nobody is stupid enough for allocating in his own "concepts book" a place for the concept of a country, and filling it with the name of a car driver. He can open the door for the name "Brazil", but who will really occupy the building is the brazilian people with its culture and way of life, stereotypes etc.

And you can be sure, Brazil doesn't need anyone else opening the doors. Brazil is a very well known concept in the whole world.

I had a discussion with LanceKnight in the thread "team you hate" or something like this, as he affirmed why he wanted Brazil to lose the cup. He was completely right - his experience with brazilians were the arrogant people in this forum (and perhaps some others he met personally) that insist on repeating Brazil is the great, the best team, and will wipe out all trophies in the next years. These guys who affirm this have exactely missed the point. Brazil is one of the countries most people like, and not because of the football, but because of the fans. If Ronaldinho wins fans for Brazil, it's not because he's the best player today, but because he smiles, and dances, and is always spreading happiness. This is the same with the whole NT.
An "unbeatable strong" team is not loved. An "unbeatable" team with "unbeatable nice" fans is loved. And if you want to be considered, your team doesn't have to be "unbeatable strong", but the fans of your team must be "unbeatable nice".

Brazil ges lots of visibility due to the strength of their football. And some brazilian fans manage to spoil the concept "Brazil" thinking that this strength is the concept itself.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

if politics and economy make us ashamed, sports make us proud.

this is the case in most countries in the world. Even in countries you wouldn't consider they have a problem with politics and economy. This is human nature.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

that's why the national anthem should be played. the seleçao is the brasilian most loved treasure. by brasilians, and by foreigners.

The selecao can be the most loved treasure for brazilians, and this is also what I affirmed on the thread first posting. But you can be sure, if any foreigner loves Brazil, it's not the selecao. He sees the selecao as a strong team, but he loves Brazil for the brazilian people.

You may have seen in the last times the expression "o melhor do Brasil é o brasileiro" - I think it was sort of propaganda of Lula's government. They got to the point. They know exactely that Brazil has good clichés and stereotypes in the world, and also provided good experiences to many people. And they know that despite of the fact that Brazil is one of the countries in the world with the most fascinating nature, still this nature doesn't manage to play the same role on tourist's impressions when they leave the country as the brazilian people do.
Do you think these guys care about brazilian football, volleyball or race drivers? Not at all.
And the brazilian government hit the point. This is what brazilians have to be proud of.

[Ronni]

Originally Posted by Gremio

- Brasil, being the most passionate soccer country in the world, yes.

I'm not sure that Brazil is the most passionate soccer country in the world.
The fact that they have the best records in international football doesn't give them this title automatically.
According to my own experience, in Brazil you don't "smell football" as some people think. It's one more wrong cliche. You don't see children playing football on the streets like some people think, and if you go to a brazilian beach, you're more likely to see people playing volleyball or, depending on the place, even a variant of squash than really football.
I have never seen these places neither in Brazil nor in other countries. But still I feel that football seem to be more present in the lives of people in some other countries than in Brazil.

Originally Posted by Gremio

What im saying is not really an opinion pro or con, just speaking the reality of the situation (NT inherently represents the Nation).

This is indeed the current situation. It indeed does represent "virtualy" the nation, and this is what I'm discussing.

Originally Posted by Gremio

And even along your arguments lines (what i think you're getting at), Brasil issue isnt soccer uniting or disuniting, or a false image of Brasil through soccer. Its the way class divides people.

I'm not going so far. I don't see football affecting the image of Brazil neither positively nor negatively in the world, nor having bad effects in the country.
As I said in my previous posting to IloveFootie, football provides Brazil with good visibility, and this is anyway good.
My suggestion doesn't have actually the goal of having effects on any concrete aspects, but simply in the way people can enjoy the game.

Consider my affirmation on my first paragraph above - that Brazil isn't necessarily the most passionate football nation. However, the selecao is still the most successful of all national teams. And its importance in the football world doesn't reflect the role of the brazilian nation in the world community.
This gives to the selecao automaticaly a different status in Brazil (to understand: not "to Brazil", like some may think) - it has automatically a value that is different from the one another country may have for their own - less successful - national team.
Using the appropriate ILoveFootie's expression, it's a "loved treasure" brazilians have and nobody else. And I think brazilians could have much more from it if they could cheer the selecao as their own "treasure", instead of mixing the concept "selecao" with any kind of national feelings - even protecting it. Actually this is already what I think I feel from most brazilians, though they are not able to understand this feeling - and express it giving room for mixing it with nationalism.

The issue on using the specific anthem gets exactely to this point: to reflect the current status of the selecao in brazilians' hearts (as a beloved "treasure"), instead of a real symbol of the brazilian nation.
Brazilians may like to connect the successful history of the selecao to the whole country, but in their hearts they know very well how to separate them.

Originally Posted by Gremio

Look at Rio (worst problems in the whole country), why is there so much trouble there? because the city's residents are not united into being ppl from Rio, the attitude has always been more like, 'if it doesnt affect me ill face the beach and not bother looking back at the city and the problem" (sounds alot better in portuguese)

people care about the problems of other people only when they don't have problems themselves. This happens in the whole world, and isn't a specialty of cariocas.
The criminality doesn't affect everybody, but even those who don't have anything to do with what is happening and are never really touched, still feel sort of insecure. So they also feel like having the same problem, and in this situation in any society, in any culture, you always have only a small group of individuals really worried about the whole community and willing to be proactive.

Originally Posted by Gremio

-The federation isnt pretending anything. it is simply common sense and human nature that the national team inherently represents the brasilian people to a certain degree, AS WELL AS of course, our soccer skill. It isnt something 'we' or the Federation is choosing to do, or 'pretending' to do.

I agree. It's the procedure used by all national teams and in most sports.
This is exactely what I'm discussing. In my opinion it's accepted (as a translation for "tolerated"), since the habitude is also a valid source of rights.
I'm not criticising the federation for this - they know they can't be blamed for doing something everybody does. I'm just pointing at fans' attitude on not recognizing it.

Originally Posted by Gremio

It is reality, because after all, we are all human and not all peoples have picked up an almanac and studied the detailed info of the nation brasil, anymore than YOU have studied the details of the other 200 countries on the globe. Its simply human nature and perception.

I agree it's human nature to accept stereotypes when we have the concept but we don't have enough information for filling it with a valid definition.

Originally Posted by Gremio

Someone sees the brasilian national team playing dirty or some other scandal, and it will result in a bad image for brasil and the brasilian people, not just brasilian soccer. thats just human nature, we judge, usually quickly, and partially (unfortunately) .

That's right. Most people won't find it's an advantage to be represented by a group of (mostly) uneducated young men.
The question of the anthem won't change anything on this.

But it's interesting to connect this to my previous answer to IloveFootie - you seem to agree with me, that if the players are involved in any scandal, or play dirty or whatever, this will affect the image of the brazilian people, as well as if the players show personality and fair play. It's not really how good or how bad they play what affects the image of the brazilian nation.
(just a parenthesis to my previous posting, sorry about this).

Originally Posted by Gremio

- I was thinking more along the lines of skeleton babies and children in africa, people straving and freezing to death in 2005 etc.

Ok, this is something different. It's real life.

[Ilovefootie]

Originally Posted by Ronni

I don't agree at all that a football team can represent the whole nation.
Do you see the United States when Bruce Arena's team is playing? No? So foreigners won't see Brazil when they see Parreira's team playing.

a national team isnt a representation of its nation? USA team plays representing USA, Brasil team plays representing Brasil and so on. it's things like football that make Brasil be superficially known in foreign countries(as well as samba, capoeira, carnaval, etc). football makes ppl come here to see Maracana and stuff. during the carnival, they come here to see it. etc.that's what i meant.

Brazilians are not admired by foreigners because of the football. It's just seen as a characteristics of brazilian culture. They admire brazilian for many other things, for things that really matter and, even if stereotyped, at least belong to a general personality and thus to concrete aspects.
Brazil does have an individual image for foreigners - football may have helped this to establish - but still this is based on brazilian culture, way of life etc.
And in a very positive way. "Brazil" is a concept that is seen in a very sympathetic way. And what concerns football, what foreigners admire brazilians for, is not how strong the national team is, but how brazilians feast and cheer. This means they're interested in the brazilian people, and not in the 20 or 30 football players. The brazilian people is responsible for the "sympathetic concept" - and this is much more a reason for pride than the strength of a football team, since this is for real!

also. but when ppl talk about football, they talk about brasilians players, brasilians teams in the wcs. ok, i agree that foreigners like the brasilian way, they dont admire brasilians cos of the football, they admire brasilian players.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Nobody has prejudice against brazilians! And the affirmation that the mixed race is a reason for prejudice is absurd! In Brazil you may have some prejudice against it, but in the rest of the world (perhaps not in Argentina!) it's very positively seen. Brazil is the real "melting pot" in the world. Because brazilians don't care where they come from - they're brazilians. A black brazilian, a brazilian with japanese origins or one with german ones are all brazilians, and they don't feel themselves as related to their "blood roots". Even in the US you see people proud of being irish, or italian or whatever. Except for some few areas in the south of the country, Brazilians commonly have no connection to their origins. And they have a history of tollerance, as people from different origins mixed peacefully with each others. This is the core of a working modern society.
The myth of the "pure race" as the ideal was buried 60 years ago. Brazil is the symbol of the opposite. And is admired for this.

u cant speak only for urself. ppl have prejudices. not all, some few stupid ones. i saw once one saying u to do something for u "favela's friends". isnt this prejudice? in brasil sure there's prejudice. but it's more a social prejudice, than a racial one. but sure there're both. as there're in many other countries. agaisnt poor ppl, black ppl and so on.

Nobody admire brazilians for their football. They admire Ronaldinho, Ronaldo & co. But not the brazilian folk. And no foreigner will consider you more because your country is stronger at football. They really don't. But they will see you with different eyes because you come from a tollerant, modern, easy-going and still progressive society.

exactly what i meant. sorry if i couldnt speak it well. but the treatment is different. once i read an article of one brasilian guys talking about his travels. he said he was in some country in latin america that i dont record at the moment and he was robbed. so he had to sleep hidden on a farm. but late at night the owner saw him and came to take him out of there. so he explained he was brasilian and was robbed. then the guy said: "Oh, brasilian? Pele, Ronaldo? i love ur country". it's the first thing ppl remember. but sure, as i said before, they admire brasilian players cos of the football.

It's always positive to a country to get some kind of visibility in the international press due to sport successes. But believe me, nobody ever thought that Senna was showing the best of anything. Again, he offered Brazil visibility, so people remember Brazil exists, and Brazil can become a definition point for people. But the brazilian people are the ones who are responsible for filling that definition. Nobody is stupid enough for allocating in his own "concepts book" a place for the concept of a country, and filling it with the name of a car driver. He can open the door for the name "Brazil", but who will really occupy the building is the brazilian people with its culture and way of life, stereotypes etc.

i was talking about what Senna means to us brasilians. and as u said, he opened the doors, just like the football, and with the doors opened, it's always easier. i guess that's what i meant since the first beginning, football open the doors. but my english isnt so good, so i couldnt say it well, just like u said.

And you can be sure, Brazil doesn't need anyone else opening the doors. Brazil is a very well known concept in the whole world.

because of what? the ppl, football, Senna, samba, capoeira, etc. football it's just one more thing in the image of Brasil.

I had a discussion with LanceKnight in the thread "team you hate" or something like this, as he affirmed why he wanted Brazil to lose the cup. He was completely right - his experience with brazilians were the arrogant people in this forum (and perhaps some others he met personally) that insist on repeating Brazil is the great, the best team, and will wipe out all trophies in the next years. These guys who affirm this have exactely missed the point. Brazil is one of the countries most people like, and not because of the football, but because of the fans. If Ronaldinho wins fans for Brazil, it's not because he's the best player today, but because he smiles, and dances, and is always spreading happiness. This is the same with the whole NT.
An "unbeatable strong" team is not loved. An "unbeatable" team with "unbeatable nice" fans is loved. And if you want to be considered, your team doesn't have to be "unbeatable strong", but the fans of your team must be "unbeatable nice".

i agree with u here.

Brazil ges lots of visibility due to the strength of their football. And some brazilian fans manage to spoil the concept "Brazil" thinking that this strength is the concept itself.

exactly. "lots of visibility", what others nice countries dont have because they dont have something to open them the doors.

this is the case in most countries in the world. Even in countries you wouldn't consider they have a problem with politics and economy. This is human nature.

sure. it was just one more point. every 4 yrs we can "forget" some problems to support our nt. it's a really relief sometimes. it was even used by the dictatorship in the wc 70 (they created a slogan saying "Brasil, love it or leave it" and the song u posted, if im not wrong) cos they knew brasilian ppl got crazy with the title, cos football is our religion. part of our culture, as u well said.

The selecao can be the most loved treasure for brazilians, and this is also what I affirmed on the thread first posting. But you can be sure, if any foreigner loves Brazil, it's not the selecao. He sees the selecao as a strong team, but he loves Brazil for the brazilian people.

so, being brasilians most loved treasure, it should be the national anthem. it's part of brasilian culture. it's our religion. what could be better than the national anthem? i can also say that some stupid brasilians only feel proud about Brasil when it's about the seleçao, football. so, it has to have this connection between football and nation.

yea, u already got that i didnt mean this, but that they love brasilian players and the football open us doors.

You may have seen in the last times the expression "o melhor do Brasil é o brasileiro" - I think it was sort of propaganda of Lula's government. They got to the point. They know exactely that Brazil has good clichés and stereotypes in the world, and also provided good experiences to many people. And they know that despite of the fact that Brazil is one of the countries in the world with the most fascinating nature, still this nature doesn't manage to play the same role on tourist's impressions when they leave the country as the brazilian people do.
Do you think these guys care about brazilian football, volleyball or race drivers? Not at all.
And the brazilian government hit the point. This is what brazilians have to be proud of.

agree. they should. but some dont. they're just proud of football, Senna, volleyball. sports. or culture.

and, in all other countries, the anthem is the national one. why should be different in brasil? it's one of the few times brasilians feel proud on singing it. cos we dont sing it very often. many dont even know it.


sorry, i dont know how to explain things very well in english, but im trying. hope u understand me this time

[Ronni]

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

a national team isnt a representation of its nation? USA team plays representing USA, Brasil team plays representing Brasil and so on.

If this was correct, Brazil would be the superpower in the world.
The football national team represents one part of the country, and it's under the direction of only one of the ministeries. I don't know how many ministers Brazil has, and which is the sports minister. Anyway the football NT represents a small part under his administration.
This has nothing to do with brazilian finances, brazilian education, brazilian agriculture etc. These are areas in which Brazil is still growing, and is far from being the superpower Brazil is in football. And taking the brazilian economy for representing Brazil is equally wrong.
There are just a couple of things that symbolize and represent entire Brazil - the economy, the education, the culture, the sports, the agriculture, everything: the flag, the national anthem and a couple of other things.

Brazilian jerseys don't have the brazilian flag "over the heart", but the CBF symbol. Why? Because the "selecao canarinho" isn't defending Brazil, but a tiny part of its culture.
What will be getting one star more on top if Brazil wins the cup, the brazilian flag or the CBF symbol?

Ok, I'm exaggerating. Indeed this is a good analogy, but my argument considers the idiosyncrasies of the relationship brazilians have with the selecao, which is different from the one some other people have. You're contradicting my affirmation and I finish by defending the wrong point.

Ok, but just as an example: according to my experience Turkey is a much more football fanatic and enthousiastic nation than Brazil, turkish players feel like defending their nation and fans feel much more the turkish honour being defended than brazilians. They carry the turkish flag on their jerseys, not their federation's. And I fully agree, since this is the way they really feel.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

it's things like football that make Brasil be superficially known in foreign countries(as well as samba, capoeira, carnaval, etc). football makes ppl come here to see Maracana and stuff. during the carnival, they come here to see it. etc.that's what i meant.

No. This regards only stupid people.
Believe me, you'll find in cultivated regions more people knowing Lula than Ronaldinho.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

also. but when ppl talk about football, they talk about brasilians players, brasilians teams in the wcs.

This is the past. Nowadays people tell you that they know Lula and that they like him (though only very good informed people know he has lost much of his popularity in Brazil)

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

ok, i agree that foreigners like the brasilian way, they dont admire brasilians cos of the football, they admire brasilian players.

They admire more brazilian fans.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

u cant speak only for urself. ppl have prejudices. not all, some few stupid ones. i saw once one saying u to do something for u "favela's friends". isnt this prejudice?

No. Some people use the arms they have in order to be aggressive enough.
They know Brazil has slums, and most of them even know they're called "favelas". Since they imagine you'll feel offended if they say this, and this is what they want, they do it.
There's no such thing as prejudice against poor people everywhere like it is in Brazil. I don't know any other place in the world where people are so afraid of being seen as poor than in Brazil. In most places most people don't care if you think they're poor or not. In Brazil it's different.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

in brasil sure there's prejudice. but it's more a social prejudice, than a racial one. but sure there're both. as there're in many other countries. agaisnt poor ppl, black ppl and so on.

I know how it works in Brazil. Indeed there is still a bit racial prejudice, that is of course nothing compared to the huge social prejudice.
The problem is that brazilians are almost proud of that. Social prejudice isn't better than racial prejudice. And in a country like Brazil, where social mobility rarely exists, at the end it is the same. It has absolutely the same roots of racial prejudice, and is as inhumane as racial prejudice is.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

exactly what i meant. sorry if i couldnt speak it well. but the treatment is different. once i read an article of one brasilian guys talking about his travels. he said he was in some country in latin america that i dont record at the moment and he was robbed. so he had to sleep hidden on a farm. but late at night the owner saw him and came to take him out of there. so he explained he was brasilian and was robbed. then the guy said: "Oh, brasilian? Pele, Ronaldo? i love ur country". it's the first thing ppl remember. but sure, as i said before, they admire brasilian players cos of the football.

Don't mix the real perception people have with the strategies of diplomacy people use. When you don't know someone, and you want to demonstrate sympathy, the best thing you do is to build a bridge to this person through a common knowledge using something your speech partner will be glad of. The best means for this kind of communication at lower levels are superficial things. Football is superficial, and the guy knew how to reach the brazilian's sympathy. This does not mean he really liked Brazil because of football. I imagine he knows also about people being robbed and killed in Rio, about poor people in slums etc, but he didn't mention it. But he probably likes brazilian people, and wanted to say that. The best way to do this is showing some interest on something objective.

Of course depending on the cultural level of the people in question, they will never leave the football sphere.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

exactly. "lots of visibility", what others nice countries dont have because they dont have something to open them the doors.

All "significative" countries do. For example Mexico is also a big country and can't be remembered for its football. They're remembered for their cuisine.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

sure. it was just one more point. every 4 yrs we can "forget" some problems to support our nt.

Many brazilians already forget everything for 4 days once a year during carnivals!
I'll be also "forgetting everything" next year in Rio. I'll be on the parade (most probably Portela). Watch to it on tv. I'll wave at you.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

it's a really relief sometimes. it was even used by the dictatorship in the wc 70 (they created a slogan saying "Brasil, love it or leave it" and the song u posted, if im not wrong) cos they knew brasilian ppl got crazy with the title, cos football is our religion. part of our culture, as u well said.

Bread and circus. Ancient romans already knew this strategy 2000 years ago.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

so, being brasilians most loved treasure, it should be the national anthem. it's part of brasilian culture. it's our religion. what could be better than the national anthem?

Ok.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

i can also say that some stupid brasilians only feel proud about Brasil when it's about the seleçao, football. so, it has to have this connection between football and nation.

I agree that if the people see this connection, the national anthem is the correct one.
My argument was even the opposite. That the people do NOT connect it.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

and, in all other countries, the anthem is the national one.
why should be different in brasil? it's one of the few times brasilians feel proud on singing it. cos we dont sing it very often. many dont even know it.

exactely because I consider the selecao is something special.
It's more important to brazilians than many other things, and it has its own "personality", instead of being just a symbol.

Actually you keep on backing my arguments, but we seem not to understand each other.

The "selecao" is loved itself, and as you said, people remember Brazil when it's World Cup. It's because the "selecao" is what they love, and are proud of. They "forget the problems", or even "forget the country's problems". Because the selecao is NOT the country. It is something special.
It wouldn't be less Brazil if it had another anthem. But it would be the "treasure" itself, only brazilians have.

[Ilovefootie]

yes, i agree with most of what u say. but as i said before, i cant explain things well in english. all that i said before was to show u that connection between football and the proud of being brasilian that most of ppl have it here.
u know 4th of july, dont u? ppl in parades, with flags. or even the nfl final, americans singing their national anthem. these things dont happen here. u just carry a brasil flag during world cup. or in a few special ocasions. not even on september 7th this happens. that's why i didnt agree with u when u said it shouldnt be the national anthem.

and about brasil being know and stuff in the world, i hope most of ppl think the way u do. but u know, u seem to know a lot of stuff, to be a very cleaver man. most of ppl arent. they know a few things about brasil. but im not saying its a bad thing. we cant know everything. i dont know a lot of stuff. a lot of countries. just the ones i like or the ones everybody know.

[Ronni]

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

yes, i agree with most of what u say. but as i said before, i cant explain things well in english.

I don't know why you keep on saying this. I find your English very good. I'm not a native speaker, but as far as I can judge, it's excellent what you write.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

all that i said before was to show u that connection between football and the proud of being brasilian that most of ppl have it here.
u know 4th of july, dont u? ppl in parades, with flags. or even the nfl final, americans singing their national anthem. these things dont happen here. u just carry a brasil flag during world cup. or in a few special ocasions. not even on september 7th this happens. that's why i didnt agree with u when u said it shouldnt be the national anthem.

Brazilians can be also very nationalistic. And they commonly do it when they're living abroad or having contact with foreigners. Actually this reflects some kind of "ugly duckling complex" they have at home. They try to compensate it by being nationalistic on the things they know they're good at. And football is also used for this.
This stops really only when a brazilian realizes they're no "ugly duckling". So they don't have the need of affirming himself.
When they're among themselves they just reinforce the "ugly duckling complex". This happens to many other people too.

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

and about brasil being know and stuff in the world, i hope most of ppl think the way u do.

Believe me, Brazil is a very known "concept" in the world. And football is just one of its components, and since people have every day more access to information about "important issues", football is decreasing quickly on importance for Brazil's image.
If you had last summer the opportunity of walking on the streets of big cities in Europe, you would be amazed to see the newest fashion it was to wear green-yellow t-shirts with the inscription "Brazil" on it, in all different possibilities. I saw even the 70's version of the old CBD jersey with 3 stars. But this had absolutely nothing to do with football. Brazilian colours fit summer feelings, and also the "Brazil" concept. Brazil is seen really very positively, and in the last years there are many things arriving in Europe that give Brazil even more visibility. Football isn't a strong "Brazil" thing any longer, like it was perhaps back in the 70's.

Back to the "treasure selecao" issue, there is one point I still wanted to point out. I'm sure you have already heard about the "weight" brazilian players say about wearing the yellow selecao jersey. Because they know they're wearing a jersey that carries a lot of history, and inspires respect. Not because they feel they're representing the whole nation. It's because they're being measured with the glorious past of the selecao. In countries like Turkey it's different: they feel it "heavy" because they know the whole country is behind them - and they feel themselves much more a "folk" or a "race" than brazilians. The selecao itself was important for creating the "Brazil feeling" in brazilians (the WC 1938 in France was an important point for this). In Brazil it's the "selecao brasileira" feeling what is really an honour and a "weight" for them. They know the selecao is bigger than any one, than any player. Since we were talking about Argentina in another thread, it's a good example. Compare it to Argentina and Maradona. The AFA established that the number 10 shouldn't be used any more, since this number was only Diego's one (FIFA didn't agree with this). Almost the whole argentinian people backed AFA's decision. In Brazil it would be unthinkable. Even if brazilians say Pele was the best players all times, the selecao is a concept that is much greater than Pele, and Pele is one very important player in the history of the selecao, but nothing more. And even Pele isn't big enough to have one number of the selecao just for him. There were even other big players after him using the 10. Think about Zico, Ronaldinho ...

This is what I mean. The "selecao" is something special also for brazilians. It's greater than any single player, and it has a respect and admiration among its own fans that even Brazil as a country doesn't have among its own citizens.
Talk to turks, germans, americans, french or to whoever you want about their feeling for their own national teams and you will understand what I mean.
This is why I say that the selecao as an institution "per se" would deserve its own anthem, instead of "borrowing" the nation's one.

[Ilovefootie]

yes, i understand what u say. and i agree. i just dont agree about the anthem, but ok. i guess u understood my points too.

and u have a very good perception of the brasilian ppl. we really feel like this. cos it's the kind of stories we hear. that americans think brasil capital is buenos aires, and not brasilia, and stuff . but u're right, things are getting better about Brasil's image abroad.

[Ronni]

Originally Posted by Ilovefootie

yes, i understand what u say. and i agree. i just dont agree about the anthem, but ok. i guess u understood my points too.

and u have a very good perception of the brasilian ppl. we really feel like this. cos it's the kind of stories we hear. that americans think brasil capital is buenos aires, and not brasilia, and stuff . but u're right, things are getting better about Brasil's image abroad.

The good thing is that americans aren't a good example for anything. And it's useless to think anything can reach the US-american populace. After all, in the original version Superman saves America, not the world. This is how far their eyes can reach.
So don't worry about them. The world is much larger.