Is Brazilian Futebol Dying?

[Cafu100]

Before anyone reads this I would say that i) I am not suffering from depression (!), and ii) I AM a Brazil fan - ahead of my own country England (no comments/abuse please). Here we go. Well, if it is not dying then it is struggling for breath. We have corruption, very poor crowds, our best players overseas, players being owed money by their clubs, a chaotic calendar, change of tecnico madness, etc. I am old enough to remember perhaps the best Brazilian team not to win a world cup in 1982. Only one of the players - Falcao - played for a foreign club. What do we have now? A teenager having a good couple of months and being bought by a European club. I am not blaming the player for going as it is a way to support him and his family for a long time or even life. In 1970, all 22 players played for Brazilian clubs and got together some 2 and half monhs or so before the competition started. Utopia! When we announce a squad now there is usually some domestic or CONMEBOL competition going on and there then begins some horse trading about the tecnico taking only 1 or 2 players from teams if they are still involved in these tournaments. Are these competitions REALLY important? I do wonder when we some of the attendances for games. We read that Flamengo and Corinthians are the best supported teams but the biggest crowds were in Bahia and Minas Gerais! It will be interesting to see how many people go to the stadiums to watch the Rio-SP tournament (and yes, I know people can't always afford to go to the stadiums. As far as the playing standards go, I can't comment as I no games were on English TV but I DO believe that we have the talent (witness the endless transfer dealings to our rich 'brothers' overseas). The press is also a problem - witness the written hanging of Leomar!! Re the national team, we have an above average chance of winning the penta but the 3 central defender system has got to go (it did not get us anywhere in 1990). Any serious views out there?

[Garrincha]

Originally posted by Cafu100
As far as the playing standards go, I can't comment as I no games were on English TV but I DO believe that we have the talent (witness the endless transfer dealings to our rich 'brothers' overseas).

You mean you don't see Brazilian teams playing? Then where do you gather your poinions from, just written news on the Internet? I suggest you try to watch some games, it may enlighten you, and I don't mean it will change your opinion necessarily. But do watch some games.


Re the national team, we have an above average chance of winning the penta but the 3 central defender system has got to go (it did not get us anywhere in 1990). Any serious views out there?

The 3-man defense in a 3-5-2 wasn't very usual in Brazilian soccer in 1990, but today 50% of the teams in the last Brazilian championship used that system. Players are more accustomed and variations are being attempted with more confidence. That's what I mean when I say you should watch the games before you judge: As you said yourself, the media is part of the problem, as many commentators are clueless about actual tactics. So the press attacks the 3-5-2 without knowing a lot about it, just because it's different. But Brazilian teams use it as jsut another tactical alternative, players are getting more and more familiar with it. Our "abroad" stars are very familiar with it. So I don't see the problem with using it. :)

In 1990 Lazaroni built a 3-5-2, yes, but some characteristics of that team weren't adequate for the system. For instance, the three defenders of Lazaroni's team waited for the strikers, keeping their positions, which is the wrong attitude in a three-man defense but the right one in a 4-man defense. In a 4-4-2 the defs hold their positions and wait for the wingbacks and defensive mids to pressure, and then try the tackle. In a 3-5-2 the central defenders must pressure the strikers, to force them into commiting mistakes.

Also, Valdo - our main playmaker in Lazaroni's 3-5-2, effectively our "trequartista" - lacked the necessary mobility to peform well in that system. He was good in a 4-4-2, which is how he played in Gremio at the time, but in a 3-5-2 he didn't create options with enough agility.

Of course, Muller's hundreds of missed goals also hurt our team, as no team misses so many goal chances and gets away with it. :rolleyes: :mad:

[Garrincha]

Originally posted by Cafu100
I am old enough to remember perhaps the best Brazilian team not to win a world cup in 1982. Only one of the players - Falcao - played for a foreign club. What do we have now? A teenager having a good couple of months and being bought by a European club. I am not blaming the player for going as it is a way to support him and his family for a long time or even life. In 1970, all 22 players played for Brazilian clubs and got together some 2 and half monhs or so before the competition started. Utopia!


As far as the playing standards go, I can't comment as I no games were on English TV but I DO believe that we have the talent (witness the endless transfer dealings to our rich 'brothers' overseas).

The tranfers to other countries is a direct effect of Brazil's economical situation. If Brazil's economy grows, and the clubs get more organized financially, the players won't go abroad that often. But I don't see how we can keep players like Ronaldo and Rivaldo in here for a while; the money going arond in Europe is just too big, and with their need for big footballing talent, our revelations are worth their weight in gold.

Maybe in the future we'll be able to keep our stars in our domestic league, but not for another decade or two. IMHO the clubs must organize themselves first; the financial stability and affluence must come first, and the players wil follow naturally. After all, we do still create talent on a daily basis. ;)

But honestly I believe our clubs will get organized. I do believe, though, that some of them won't survive the necessary growth period; it will be tough and it will be traumatic, and those who get prepared first will have an edge then. Many Brazilian clubs are in deep debt, and some of them don't mind, thinking bankrupcy will never happen - as it just happened, sadly, to Colo Colo in Chile. :(

My own heart's club, Botafogo, hired a financial administrator, this year, and is proceeding into an audit to establish exact figures of debt and income. This is "getting organized". Our team will be less than brilliant this year, as we try to clean up the economical mess, but I believe that is the right track. I'm not the only one who thinks so, either; apparently an investment company is negotiating with Botafogo, wanting to jump on the wagon early. :) Can you tell I'm optimistic?

Flamengo, on the other hand, has incredibly huge debts and still refuses to obey to "budgets" or anything like that. They believe their huge fan base will always see them through any crisis, no matter how deeply in debt they are. Time will see who is right, I suppose.

Brazilian socer is going through a time of administrative growth and renovation, Cafu100. :) It will be hard, and some clubs may not make it through these changes, but I believe we will be stronger when it's over. We do need to clean up our act, don't you agree? ;)

[Cafu100]

Amigos - Thank you for your responses. I DO see every national team via video and TV (and have attended a number at the stadiums down the years). I personally do not like the 3-5-2 but Big Phil ain't for changing!! I just feel that it does not suit us (nothwithstanding that a number of teams in Brazil play this way). As far as seeing Brazilian futebol, we get nothing in good old Inglaterra and it too expensive for me to get videos of club games. Timao confuses me: so big a club (we are told) but I can go back 20 years or more when they were first going to build their own stadium!! There attendances rarely appear to be at the top level as well. I love Brazilian futebol and will support it to the day I die but there are so many difficulties. I would love a Mengo featuring Ronaldo, a Gremio featuring Rivaldo etc etc. I know it is never going to happen unless the economy changes (and that ain't going to happen either!). I think you know where I am at.

[Garrincha]

Originally posted by Cafu100
I would love a Mengo featuring Ronaldo, a Gremio featuring Rivaldo etc etc. I know it is never going to happen unless the economy changes (and that ain't going to happen either!). I think you know where I am at.

Well, if you mean a Brazilian league with ALL the best Brazilians in it, and NOT losing the finest players to Europ teams - I don't think we'll see that in our lifetimes. :(
The distance from where Brazilian clubs are now, to the level of organization required to have such a powerful league, is still too great. Our teams must get organized, and there's just too much to do.

There's an effort going on right now, towards changing things for the better - but there are some people who strive to keep things as they are, the rats who profit from our disorganization: People like Eduardo Vianna (president of the Rio de Janeiro confederation, nicknamed "WaterBox" for his bloated appearance) and other distasteful "soccer policians". These b@stards don't want anything to change because a professional organization would empty their little feuds of power and influence, and they would no longer profit off the big clubs.

But while a league with EVERYBODY here is unlikely for the next several decades, a Brazilian league with stronger clubs, and more players in them, is IMO possible in our lifetimes. We won't be able to keep a Rivaldo or a Ronaldo in Brazil, but players like Denilson, Lima, Djalminha and Ze Roberto might be still in Brazil. Before anyone assaults me for being a dreamer, I'm talking wages and market value. The players I mentioned have wages less steep than Ronaldo's for instance. And in an organized Brazilian league, we would effectively have an "NBA" situation: Dozens upon dozens of stars, new stars coming up every month, games being broadcast throughout the world as the Very Best Soccer In The World. I mean, our league, even weakened by the departure of top players, is still one of the best in the world. If we were financially able to keep high-profile players more frequently, there wouldn't even be a contest about which would be the best league. :) I may be optimistic, but I think that's not impossible. Organized clubs, in an organized league, would bring in investment, and better broadcasting deals, and more marketing money. It all clicks, IF the clubs & organization are professional - which few are today, sadly. :(

I'm not saying Europe wouldn't sign away top players - that will still happen, and it will only end when Brazil is one of the world's richest nations - something that we have yet to see, as well. :rolleyes: Italy and Spain will take away our best players, just as they take away the best French, Dutch, Portuguese and Yugo players. The richest leagues will still be able to get the best players from the less-affluent leagues. But an organized Brazilian league would be able to keep more players, and only the truly TOP players would leave, as they would be offered wages and prizes our teams wouldn't be able to match. :dontcare: That's life, and I don't see a problem with it.

So Rivaldo would go, yes - but guys like Eriberto, Marcos Assunçao, Vagner and Silvinho might stay, as their wages would be within our club's budgets. I think this is perfectly possible, in a professional environment. But I may never see that in my lifetime. As someone once said, "Life Is Tough And Then You Die."

[Cafu100]

We can only hope that things improve!!

[OAnimal]

If brazilian football dies, world football dies. It is as simple as this. Who would watch La Lega or Serie A without all foreigners playing in it? It would be like sleeping with Ana Kournikova wearing a virgin belt that you can't remove. ;)

[Garrincha]

Originally posted by OAnimal
It would be like sleeping with Ana Kournikova wearing a virgin belt that you can't remove. ;)

This has to be the most imaginative and colorful argument ever written in defense of Brazilian football. :D I salute you, OAnimal; may Kournikova take off the belt whenever she sleeps with you! :thumbsup:

[Cafu100]

"This has to be the most imaginative and colorful argument ever written in defense of Brazilian football. I salute you, OAnimal; may Kournikova take off the belt whenever she sleeps with you! "

No need to defend it because I am not attacking it! I love it as well you know!!

[OAnimal]

Originally posted by Garrincha


This has to be the most imaginative and colorful argument ever written in defense of Brazilian football. :D I salute you, OAnimal; may Kournikova take off the belt whenever she sleeps with you! :thumbsup:

Thank you for nice wishes, man. ;)
I also love brazilian football.

[Garrincha]

Originally posted by Cafu100
No need to defend it because I am not attacking it! I love it as well you know!!

Yo, cool it, Cafu100 - I know you weren't attacking Brazilian football, and I know you love it too.

I was referring to the numerous people who are attacking Brazilian football - you know, the folks who were overjoyed to see our Qualifiers' problems.

Peace, man! :)

[ItalianBoy]

Not really, BRA football could, I hope no of course, but if it does, (impossible) The world football wont die, we still got loads of other countries with loads of talent.
Still everything until now is super good so why talk about it?

[Rigalt]

Well our soccer is really in a bad situation.

Players that goes to Europe with 17, 18 or 19 years dont improve enough here......... Its just sad....... The Clubs are in a bad situation and now with the Pele law (similar to Bosman in Europe), the player can go to Europe for free! Who will invest in teenagers if they go way and the club does not get any money?

And you know the last new? The rede globo begin with the Big Brother Brasil program now. So the games (in the weeks?) today and for the next months will be beginning at 21H55min and ending by midnight! Tell me in which coutry it is like that?

Who can attend such games? First : if you leave in a big city (lig Rio os SP) it is just dangerous to come back home at 1 am. Second: if you work the next day you will probably sleep just 5 hours. third: you know that everything is like that just because the rede globo buys all the TV rights and preferes to shows novela!

Bye Ricardo

[Rigalt]

I forgot in the last reply to speak about the 3-5-2 .......

Well I think also that it is not the best way for Brasil to play.

But you have to see that in 2001 this system works well in some Clubs here.

Atletico PR won the Brasilian Champion.. playing this way.

and

Gremio won the Brasilian Cup also playing 3-5-2.


In order to work well it is important to have to great men in the sides (alas)........ But Cafu seems to be the only one in the right side and is not playing so good. In the left side Roberto Carlos plays sometimes great but than in the next came just makes everything wrong......

Well lets hope things get better until June

Ricardo

[Rigalt]

I forgot in the last reply to speak about the 3-5-2 .......

Well I think also that it is not the best way for Brasil to play.

But you have to see that in 2001 this system works well in some Clubs here.

Atletico PR won the Brasilian Champion.. playing this way.

and

Gremio won the Brasilian Cup also playing 3-5-2.


In order to work well it is important to have to great men in the sides (alas)........ But Cafu seems to be the only one in the right side and is not playing so good. In the left side Roberto Carlos plays sometimes great but than in the next came just makes everything wrong......

Well lets hope things get better until June

Ricardo

[Garrincha]

Originally posted by Rigalt
I forgot in the last reply to speak about the 3-5-2 .......

Well I think also that it is not the best way for Brasil to play.

But you have to see that in 2001 this system works well in some Clubs here.

Atletico PR won the Brasilian Champion.. playing this way.

and

Gremio won the Brasilian Cup also playing 3-5-2.


In order to work well it is important to have to great men in the sides (alas)........ But Cafu seems to be the only one in the right side and is not playing so good. In the left side Roberto Carlos plays sometimes great but than in the next came just makes everything wrong......


About the 3-5-2: The Brazilian media - clueless as ever, they couldn't find their arse with both hands - completely overlooked an important thing that happened in tuesday's training. The press was so obsessed with Romario's absence, the real news happened and went unnoticed.

What happened, you ask? well, Scolari tried a different tactical approach. He didn't abandon the 3-5-2 - he tried a different 3-5-2. Instead of two defensive mids and one playmaker, he tried ONE defensive mid and TWO playmakers. Kleberson - who's a very creative defensive mid - was substituted for Kaka, and with this simple change our mid became fluid.
It was fielded as Beletti, Gilberto Silva, Juninho Paulista, Kaka and Paulo Cesar. :) To illustrate our Euro friends, Beletti is Cafu's reserve and Paulo Cesar is an excellent replacement for Roberto Carlos; and Gilberto is a world-class young defensive mid. So picture the mid with Cafu, Juninho Paulista, Emerson, Kaka and Roberto Carlos, and you'll get the idea. :D It looks GOOD!

To add to the good news, this formation actually did well in training! The starters beat the reserves with this formation, playing well.

I don't think thissingle training will change the team's tactics overnight - but it IS a good sign. Scolari is seriously considering a more offensive approach. I think this is an excellent development. But of course, our press only thinks about Romario's absence. :rolleyes: God deliver us from such mediocrity. ;)

[OAnimal]

Originally posted by ItalianBoy
Not really, BRA football could, I hope no of course, but if it does, (impossible) The world football wont die, we still got loads of other countries with loads of talent.
Still everything until now is super good so why talk about it?

OK, football would still be played, but imagine the top teams without brazilian players?? For me, it would be super boring.

[OAnimal]

Originally posted by Garrincha

What happened, you ask? well, Scolari tried a different tactical approach. He didn't abandon the 3-5-2 - he tried a different 3-5-2. Instead of two defensive mids and one playmaker, he tried ONE defensive mid and TWO playmakers. Kleberson - who's a very creative defensive mid - was substituted for Kaka, and with this simple change our mid became fluid.
It was fielded as Beletti, Gilberto Silva, Juninho Paulista, Kaka and Paulo Cesar. :) To illustrate our Euro friends, Beletti is Cafu's reserve and Paulo Cesar is an excellent replacement for Roberto Carlos; and Gilberto is a world-class young defensive mid. So picture the mid with Cafu, Juninho Paulista, Emerson, Kaka and Roberto Carlos, and you'll get the idea. :D It looks GOOD!

Wow, this really looks great. I hope Scolari will apply this tactics today against Bolivia at least for one half. Can't wait to see the match. :)

[Rigalt]

In this point you are absolutely wright Garrincha!

The media just want, like always, a star in the spotlight (¨o salvador da patria¨) and don´t care about the formation from the team.

I thing Felipão will make many experiences tonight because this is the purpouse of this game with just player that play in Brasil!

Let´s hope some new faces do a great job and we improve our tactics for the WC.

Just one thing should be also clear: whatever happen tonight, we are just playing agains Bolivia and in the WC the other teams will have another level (and preparation, specially phisicaly).

Bye,

Ricardo

PS; Kaka is also a clever kid and that helps a lot.

[Ze da Fiel]

About stars playing abroad, I think Argentina has a worst problem than us, when 10 of there 11 starters play abroad.

The thing about Brazilian football to get on its feet, again will be planning. Not only the football aspect, but also the whole Brazilan society in general......which is something easier said than done (specially with the clueless lunatics that govern brazilian congress, football and that actually VOTE)

We are still a young country and that needs a lot of education to start swigning to the correct side of thing sin society.

But coming back to the footie, this time is a normal crisis, that has already happened in the past, but it was not reflected so much on the pitch because we DID NOT PLAY the qualifiers in such a format. I remember just before the 85 qualifiers we lost every game with Evaristo de Macedo, the so called new generation could not cope with friendlies with Chile, Peru and Colombia (that were horrible at the time) Evaristo was sacked and Tele brought back the old guard and we cruised in the qualifiers.

Copa America 91 we were again AWFUL , and we managed to finish second , with Falcao making a transition (he also was a HORRIBLE MANAGER, and i don't know why Teixeira wants him as a co-ordinator, as he is a horrible commentator (Falcao stick to play and desginig clothes please;)

But that time the qualifiers , Parreira took 2 years to sort out the team, making loads of friendlies, testing things. He came to the copa america 93 with a good team just of brazilian players and he LOST the tournament to the argies (although we played better , they did have a better team than us at the time). He got to the qualifiers and the first phase we were pathetic in every single game, with the exceptioni of Uruguay away were the team showed a lot of character. Back to Brazil, we barely beat Ecuador, then it came that historical game against Bolivia in Recife were Ricardo Gomes asked the players to get in with all there hands together. That was the tunring point...overther Brazil WON the World Cup 94, making the whole team go against the press and the fans. In the first half it was just 5x0 against those Bolivians. Then we were world champs etc.....

Back to the structure story. Well, as garrincha said we cannot hold a Ronaldo (unless he wants to come back) and i believe if Ronaldo had not suffered so many injuries and alredy had given some titles to Inter he would be returning back home at the age of 28 or something. He does not need the money anymore, he got tons of it without doing nothing!

Now the main thing would be make a good tournament were we would be able to SELL our football. I mean, you look at a good normal Brazilian game between say Corinthians x Sao Paulo. If you get a good game of Man Utd x Liverpool or a Juventus x Inter, the Corinthians x Sao Paulo game will be more EXCITING and TECHINICALLY RICHER. So why would a guy in Asia or even in Europe (supposing he is not italian or english) watch a premiership game or Serie A game, if he can get much more quality , excitment and skill in the Brazilian game??

Spain is not a richer country than Brazil. We have much more potential than them in a country, BUT the thing that diffentiates us from them is that they are organized, they have planned there tournament and they SELL there tournament with most of OUR raw material. Why can't we do the same??? In a normal basis is Real Madrid a bigger club than Flamengo or Corinthians DOMESTICALLY??? i doubt it. Is Barcelona bigger than a Vasco or Palmeiras domestically?? I doubt it!

It can all be done,, we have the quality (we make the other tournament tick), but we do not have the planning guys!