Clarification...........

[Drummer]

I just want to say that my original point was that Aex fergesun is the best modern day manager.
The only reason that Italian footballs status has come up is because the Statement that ' Italian league football is the best was made'. I think 5 years ago that was the case but not now. Im not here to defend the premiership, I never said it was the best. A couple of years back united had a few close calls when Blackburn and Arsenal and Newcastle chased them down to the last day of the season . Does that mean that the premier league was the best league in those seasons???
I think that having a close league, great players and great teams is great but if they cant prove themselves on the big Stage(europe) then this statement is very questionable.
The best league is generally both , which is what the Italian league WAS.
If we are talking about countries that have close leagues then, obviously they would have to have success in europe to be recognised as a good league. Italian teams are established and well known, but teams from Germany have done no worse in europethan the Italians and the leagues have been a little bit closer yet there is no mention of them..
Im not picking on Italian football itself , just the statement made about its status.

[Severus]

Originally posted by Drummer
I just want to say that my original point was that Aex fergesun is the best modern day manager.
The only reason that Italian footballs status has come up is because the Statement that ' Italian league football is the best was made'. I think 5 years ago that was the case but not now. Im not here to defend the premiership, I never said it was the best. A couple of years back united had a few close calls when Blackburn and Arsenal and Newcastle chased them down to the last day of the season . Does that mean that the premier league was the best league in those seasons???
I think that having a close league, great players and great teams is great but if they cant prove themselves on the big Stage(europe) then this statement is very questionable.
The best league is generally both , which is what the Italian league WAS.
If we are talking about countries that have close leagues then, obviously they would have to have success in europe to be recognised as a good league. Italian teams are established and well known, but teams from Germany have done no worse in europethan the Italians and the leagues have been a little bit closer yet there is no mention of them..
Im not picking on Italian football itself , just the statement made about its status.

you're not understanding me. i didn't mean that because serie A always comes down to the wire in deciding its champion that for that very reason its the best. that's just one of the characteristics. how about the others that go unnoticed ... best talent, most depth etc etc. all i am saying is that europe shouldn't be the biggest indicator of how great a league is because despite spain posting great results ... italian clubs had a winning record against primera clubs in europe last year i believe it was like 2 - 1 - 2. is spain better because they've won the CL the past 2 years ? cos head to head vs their itlaian counterparts, we beat them most of the time.

[Drummer]

italian teams didnt do beteer against english teams did they. Look my whole point is that to boast having the best league you have to have a good domestic league with teams that can perform on the big stage (europe). Italy has one of these characteristics. No country has got a perfect scenario but I think that the Spanish league is currently the closest, on current form (last 3-4 years).

[Drummer]

Another point I want to make is that all 3 english teams that qualified for the CL got to the quarter finals. Thsi suggests (note the word suggests) that the premier league has at least 3 top euro teams, especially because 100% of them got so far. Just because United are the super power of the premier league doesnt mean that the league is of poor quality, the euro success of others proves this. Also Leeds who got to the Semi's couldnt even get back into the CL. there was a great scramble for CL places between the top 4 (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th). i personally think that chelsea, Leeds, Arsenal, and Liverpool would put it up to Italys best...

[Severus]

indeed they would. those are 3 quality teams you mentioned. however what would the rest of the league do against the rest of the italian clubs ? i don't think they'd fair as well do you ?

[Drummer]

Thats very true , the rest of the epl would not have a hope ( outside Chelea, Man UTD, Leeds, Liverpool, and Arsenal). But again I never said the EPL is the best.
Ultimatly I am saying that you canot say that your favourate league is the best without proper authority, ie facts to back it up..

This is for those who say that Serie A has the best players...
They have world class players (that havent in the last few years done well outside the scudetto) so do the EPL and the spanish league. You see the likes of Claudio lopez, Buffon, and trzeget especially are players you consider to be world class. Trezeget is not as good as Hasslebaink, lopez is definantly not nearly as good as giggs, and as for buffon, i think that keepers in Italy and keepers in England are totally differant (i personally think that i would prefer a reliable david seaman then a Peruzzi , Buffon type keeper ie parry most shots etc). Of course its a matter of opinion as to World class players...

So am I right in saying that your point is that a league with a few good performing teams domestically and in europe is worse than a league with a few more teams that are level Domestically , but cannot compete in europe????

you see Im confused as to which point is being made by which fans.... (best players = best league , close league = best league, teams with similar strengths = best league, Euro success or progression to LATTER STAGES = not important once one of the above applies??)

[Severus]

Thats very true , the rest of the epl would not have a hope ( outside Chelea, Man UTD, Leeds, Liverpool, and Arsenal). But again I never said the EPL is the best.
Ultimatly I am saying that you canot say that your favourate league is the best without proper authority, ie facts to back it up..

first of all you're running around in circles here. this is one fact you named right here ... that team for team ours would beat yours. so doesn't that tell you something, that our league championship is much harder to win than yours cos its more competitive ? shouldn't the competitiveness of the league be a pretty darn good measuring stick as to how the actual league functions ? i don't understand you, you're claiming that EPL is better than serie A because 3 of your teams made the quarters ? what else are you hanging on to ? nothing much cos if you want to judge a league there should be atleast 5 qualifications:

1) # of quality players
2) # of quality teams
3) the competitiveness of the league
4) the depth of the league

and lastly ...
5) how well they do against a few european teams of other domestic leagues

the way i see it its 4/5 in serie A's favour cos this is a more thorough approach at measuring the quality of a LEAGUE (which usually consists of more than 3 teams )

You see the likes of Claudio lopez, Buffon, and trzeget especially are players you consider to be world class. Trezeget is not as good as Hasslebaink, lopez is definantly not nearly as good as giggs, and as for buffon, i think that keepers in Italy and keepers in England are totally differant (i personally think that i would prefer a reliable david seaman then a Peruzzi , Buffon type keeper ie parry most shots etc)

claudio lopez - he surely looked world class under the tutelage of hector cuper at valencia. he's just in a scoring funk and remember last year he was injured for 3/4's of it. gigs though i'll give you. i've always liked the welchman.

buffon - i guess as you said its a matter of opinion, cos although he was playing on a better arsenal squad than buffon was with parma, surprisingly, he made enough blunders last season in the CL to last him a lifetime. remember moscow just to name one. however, as i pointed out in italy, there is always much more depth. why do you compare seaman to peruzzi and buffon when toldo is the best keeper in the world. our third stringer put on a clinic vs the dutch in the euros !!!

and lastly, david trezeguet is an up and comer with not even a tenth of the matches played as hasselbank. sure he's scored more goals but that's only because he's almost 30 and has spent 80 % of his career in england. trezeguet will easily score 20 goals in serie A where the marking is substantially more stringent. however, how many goals does jimmy floyd have in the ECL ? in 5 matches played trezegol has 3. i don't even think he has 1.

[Garrincha]

Giggs is easily one of the best players in the world today, IMO. He's a fuoriclasse, who unfortunately happens to play for a National Team where nobody else is even close to him in terms of talent. Did Wales qualify for the WC? I actually don't know. But Giggs is amazing.

And Toldo (an excellent keeper, solid and very skilled) is number 2 in the world. Kahn is the best. His domination of the area is great, and Toldo still doesn't intimidate strikers quite the same way. My opinion.

But Toldo is relatively young for a keeper. He can improve.
:rolling:

[Severus]

toldo showcased his raw talent and intimidation at the euro championships which is more impressive IMO. but i'm not gonna argue with you cos kahn is right up there. to each their own i guess.

[Drummer]

1) # of quality players
2) # of quality teams
3) the competitiveness of the league
4) the depth of the league

and lastly ...
5) how well they do against a few european teams of other domestic leagues

1) thats your opinion that their players are better. 3 of the best (at least) 5 players , apply their trade in Spain (figo, rivaldo and Zidane, Roberto carlos). They may even be 4 of the top 5!!!
2) no of quality teams, again thats your opinion. there are alot of good teams in that league but none of them have done anything in 5) europe for the last few years (this years isnt over yet), so the quality of these good teams is questionable..
3) The competitiveness is the best no arguements.
4) Depth and quality of the teams seem to be very similar.
5) Need I say any more?? How well they do Against the best of europe has to offer. thats the whole point of the competition. its one thing if its 1 of your countries teams but its 4 of the top teams that havent produced in the last few years.