I enjoy Spanish football but....

[Drummer]

First of all Im not a huge follower of spanish football but I do enjoy watching it. My friend is a huge fan and his girlfriend is from madrid and hes at several matches a year. He always tells me about the games and the supporters attitudes.
From what he tells me , the fans of clubs in Spain seem to think that they are all far superior to any other country. This annoys me as there is nothing worse than a country full of itself. Look at how popular the English fans are outside their own country..... I hate that, if you are the best team or best league then let the teams prove it on the pitch. Spanish teams have undoubtadly been the best in europe over the last few years but that doesnt make their league the best. You have Real Madrid, Barcelona and more recently Deportivo and Valencia (maybe Celta also) so how does that make them the best league in the world??? Barca and Madrid are the only 'real' giants wheras england has United , Liverpool, Arsenal, Leeds, Chelsea , Everton, Tottenham among others that arent even in the top league. Im not a person to defend the english game but on this point I must declare England the winner.........

[JYT2001]

'United , Liverpool, Arsenal, Leeds, Chelsea , Everton, Tottenham among others that arent even in the top league. Im not a person to defend the english game but on this point I must declare England the winner.........'

Of all the STUPID comments a person can make. I am an Everton supporter and even I know that they are nowhere near a top team. Same with Tottenham. And Chelsea and Liverpool are nothing special.
Juventus, Inter, Milan, Roma, Lazio, Parma and Fiorentina (before the financial troubles). These are top-class teams and much better than the good-average-below average teams you mentioned.

I'm glad I read this post though because it confirms what I thought of your ridiculous views.

[Drummer]

"Juventus, Inter, Milan, Roma, Lazio, Parma and Fiorentina "
How have these teams done in europe you sadcase... I meant that Everton , Tottenham etc were (and probobley will soon again) huge clubs and still are even if they arent as successful, just like Italian teams. Tottenham havent won a euro competition in the last 4 years but neither has any Italian team. The Cup winners cup was the 2nd best Euro tournament when united won it...You cant be a super team or league without winning in Europe. And by the way this is a spanish post F*ck off back to your AMAZING Italian posts.....
I see you arent able to make a decent defence of your position in the world cup board... Again Cuper is great!!! What has he won?? you contradicted yourself by saying that great managers can win things with differant clubs , What the F*ck has he won????? Do you understand English or do you answer the questions that role around your twisted little head....:red-card:

[Drummer]

Might I add that Italians arent in the same league as the spanish , they are in a differant galaxy to your 'has been' league. I know I made a negative comment, but it looks like I chose the wrong league supporters. I apologise to the spanish fans. Its more annoying listening to fans that think that their league is the best then fans that actually know (because it is) it...... I hope that Spanish and english teams get Italian clubs in the next stage of the Champions league (if there are any).

[ItalianBoy]

Drummer you got some problems dude! Cuper is ag reat coach cuz one, he has won the Copa Del Rey, with Mallorca, and he went to semis on the CL twice and now Inter are the top team in the Serie A for now.

[raul07]

hey............what are you talking there.....drummer...........spainish league and seria A are two of the best league in the world....no one can deny it...and that stupid EPL.......what a lousy league.......i just admit that M.U,arsenal,liverpool are the three club that play good football,maybe leeds have good developement...........others......suckzzzzzz..........although EPL very famous among soccer fans........but it's bcoz EPL clubs know how to publish themselves.............not play good football......

[Drummer]

First of all I never said that cuper isnt bad..
This all started when I said that Alex Fergesun is the best modern day manager, with regards to what he has won and done for the club. jyp2001 totally Knocked it and made loads of stupid accusations about several things including the fact that he thinkds the Serie A leage is the best ... How How How do you work that out???? What stats prove this,,, facts anybody. The Italian league used to be the best in the Mid-90's but why is it so good now??? The only conceivable way of measuring leagues (which I dont agree with) is by looking at how your ciuntrys teams do in Europe. Italian Teams are crap at the moment. The next point is a leagues status ids not determined on how exciting it is (how close the Italian league is) its how powerful the teams and how many teams are in it. None of the superpowers in Italy can do well in europe, so am i right in saying that it doesnt matter how good teams are once there are loads of good teams in it????? The Welsh league is normally very close...... Im not English and I dont particularly think the EPL is the best but Serie A sure as hell isnt in the top 2 leagues.. Even the German league seems to be stronger at the mo....

[Drummer]

The first sentance is that cuper is a good coach...

[Drummer]

I believe that Real Madrid have their own newspaper, so that statemant is void. Also just because you are good at selling yourself doesnt make you a bad club/team. I am not saying that the EPL is best, Im saying that The Serie A isnt . There form in Europe recently (5years) has been dismal especially if they are to be called the best league in the world. Again my point is that Euro success doesnt mean that your league is the best but neither does having an exciting league(any league can be that) with teams close (any league can have that). Im saying that its a mixture of Both which is something the serie A teams lack........

[Garrincha]

In my opinion, the Premiership is overrated. I'm not Italian, Spanish or even European, so this isn't a biased opinion. If we try to compare the leagues (futile though it is to do so) I propose we analyze the relative power of the biggest clubs. Shall we?

England presently has five, count'em FIVE, world-class teams: Manchester, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Leeds (the last two being the weakest of the 5 IMO) . Spain's truly powerful clubs would be the two giants - do I really even need to type their names? - plus Deportivo and Valencia. Sorry, but I don't think others qualify.

Italy's world-class squads would be Juventus, Inter, Milan, Roma, and Lazio. Many Italians may disagree, but Parma is presently not in the same level - Parma would rank alongside Celta and Tottenham as powerful squads, but not as strong as the big boys (remember, this is MY opinion, everybody's free to disagree). Don't even get me started on Fiorentina. :(

Italians usually think their league is superior because it is, tactically, the hardest - it's common knowledge that the tactical demands of Serie A are greater than in other countries, basically because Italy's greatest soccer tradition lies in their defesive excellence, which is a national source of pride. So everybody takes their defensive systems VERY seriously, and it's intensely perfected everywhere. Does this make their league the "best"? Not really, just the most demanding.

What is "best" in soccer? The most successful? In that case, we should analyze average attendances in the respective leagues, as well as the clubs' results (I don't have the numbers so I'm not touching that one). Is it the sheer amount of worldwide talent on their clubs? If that's the criteria, sorry, the Premiership has NO chance against La Liga and Serie A. Is it historical tradition? Again, the struggle would be mostly among the Italians and the Spanish.

But would any of these be a valid way of evaluating it? I don't think so. Tactically, in Spain there's more offensive spaces all around, which makes for more "showtime" for viewers. Italia has all those "chess-games" between powerful squads, with their "unbreakable" defenses and catenaccio; sometimes boring, but always highly competitive. English teams have a physical style of play, which allows for constant excitement - but they lack the Italian defensive organization, and the Spanish flamboyance, meeting them halfway and offering us their own brand of showmanship.

I don't know - arguing who's "best" makes little sense to me. They're just different. And as the French say, "Vive la difference!"

[ItalianBoy]

Well Best is a lot of good things put toghether. It dosent mean that everyone has to watch the SERIE A. Still SERIE A is still the best.
Players, Teams, play, every year all the teams got a chance, you never know who will win until the end,
Just look at Lazio-juve, where Lazio won by one point in the end, before that with Milan, and Roma Juve too, now Chievo is first. In EPL, the last five seaons MANU won! And In Spain, Deportivo made the change but Its alwasy Real and Barcelona. I agree, Parma and Fiorentina are not what they were before. Still we got the best league.

[Garrincha]

Originally posted by Drummer
Im not English and I dont particularly think the EPL is the best but Serie A sure as hell isnt in the top 2 leagues.. Even the German league seems to be stronger at the mo....

The Germans? Are you kidding? The only talent in Germany is imported talent. Frankly, the Brazilian league (which isn't as strong as it used to be, with all the free transfers happening) is WAY better than the German league today. And Brazil's league, while extremely hard to win, today would be maybe the 4th or 5th best league. The Germans would be possibly among the best 10 leagues, but that's it.

Today, the only thing the Germans have going for them is the tradition, because the talent pool seems to have dried up... kinda like Uruguay, y'know? :rolleyes:

[Drummer]

Garrincha..
Seem as though you are the only unbiased person, I just want to say that I never said who had the best league I just said that If the fans are going to make such a statement then they should prove it. I have had explanations from its the most exciting, to being the closest fought etc, but noyhing which proves that they are the best. I think alot of people are thinking that I favour somebody, I dont. Its the same as the english Ranting on about 66'.. No common sense.

I have asked a simple question and gotten several differant Excuses as to why? Your description is pretty much what I have been trying to say....
The point about the German league was written wrong.. i made my German point on another message ...
At last a person with their eyes open on the subject..
Again Italian boy an exciting league doesnt mean its the best, any league can be exciting and close (league of Wales etc) and you think that it has the superior players, even though the same players havent produced the goods in Europe in the LAST 4 Years (dont bring up this year until MAY 2002 when the trophy is being lifted ....)
Good analysis .........

[Drummer]

I have you mixed up with Italian boy in there........

I have asked a simple question and gotten several differant Excuses as to why? Your description is pretty much what I have been trying to say....


Again Italian boy an exciting league doesnt mean its the best, any league can be exciting and close (league of Wales etc) and you think that it has the superior players, even though the same players havent produced the goods in Europe in the LAST 4 Years (dont bring up this year until MAY 2002 when the trophy is being lifted ....)
Good analysis .........

Thats for Italian boy!!!

[ItalianBoy]

Drumer, so what the fukk makes al eague better? Are you ok? I mean your IQ? You are saying the dumbest thing. So if you score 40 goals a game it dosent mean that you are the best striker! Come on! You are taking your post to the "ridicoules"!
" An Excinting C dosent mean its the best, not even the players etc," WHat? So what the heck! Lets say that the Nigerian Championship is the same as the liga and thats it!
Come on!

[Garrincha]

ItalianBoy, why are you being so aggressive? The man doesn't think Serie A is the world's best, so what? Is it gospel or something? Who died and made you owner of the truth, dude? He simply disagrees with you!

Actually, I'd like YOU to tell me exactly the reason why you think Serie A is the best. Is it because of the players? Then this can change from one year to another, because so do players; Veron, Zidane and Roberto Carlos once played in italy, but not anymore. Or are the best players necessarily the ones who play in Italia? :rolleyes:

Is it the fact that it's largely unpredictable? Well, man, if being unpredictable and having many title contenders is the description for World's Best League, I have to tell ya Brazil wins it easily; we have something like nine or ten teams qualified to win the title, every year. So it wouldn't be Serie A through that reasoning either. :cool:

Or would it be because of the tactical demands? Then you would have a debatable point, but even then I would have to say "most tactically elaborate" isn't necessarily "better" in soccer, IMHO.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Italia is the best, and I'm not saying that about any other league. What I'm saying is, this is too complicated a subject for you to act as if your opinion was the ultimate truth. This is a matter of opinion, there's no getting around that.

[ItalianBoy]

Sorry for my agrresiveness but me and Drum had this conversation in anohter post. The thing I dont get about Drum is when he says, " good players dont make the best league' or play either or teams.
nothing to him makes a league better.
Of course, the "better" stands for, most fun to watch AND most likely to win against other teams. Of course, Chievo wins against Parma which than MIGHT win gainst MANU. I didnt say that SERIE A is the best cuz we better as people, I said that for the players that NO OTHER championship in the world has, and the teams etc, we are definetly the nicest to watch, most competitive for players and most likely to win in the world. Ok, in the last 2 years ITA teams have done worse than Spanish teams, still, saying that the Liga is now the best all of a sudden just cuz 1-2 teams has done good in europe only, Remeber that Boca won against Real in the Intercontinental cup and they also lost against Galatasaray, continuing, that dosent mean that Spanish teams are now the best! Thats all, In Soccer, anyone that plays well can win. Thats why they play, otherwise we wouldt! makes sense!
If Drummer says that he likes the EPL better than its ok with me, still I will never say that MANU is a bad team, cuz they are good, same with Liverpool, but only cuz they done good or ok, in europe dosent Qualify them as better than ITA. For now the ITA championship is still the "best" for the reaon I posted before, when all of this will "go" to another Champiosnhip anywhere, than we could say that the ITA C lost it. ( But it wont happen ever!;) )

[Drummer]

1of you fukkers brought up the fact that the italian league is closest etc. What does that mean in football staus, when the teams in that league cant prove that they are any good in Europe (up to this year). I am only responding to your shite points with similar points... You are all changing your reasons as to why the Serie a is the best, you all choose whichever reason relates to the serie a (closest league) very conveniently. you cant answer the question as to wht the Italian league was when Milan an Juve were dominant!!! A league with a all powerful team doesnt mean that its cap, just not as exciting!!

Italian football is not exciting to watch, the goals point proves that th EPL has exciting games even if the league itself isnt.
0-0 draws arent normally that much fun. more goals normally means more excitement.
Or what is you reason for Italian supremecy???
Again you think that the Serie A has the best players when the 2 best (arguably3 Figo) players are in spain and wouldnt go to ITALY. Probobley because Spanish football is more exciting, even if the league isnt close sometimes, or the same teams win it.
Th Italian league is more tacticaly defensive, they are best at that part, but that doesnt make it "nice to watch".

[Drummer]

Ps. The Italian teams havent done well in Europe in 4-5 years..
I havent said that italian teams are bad. I have said that they are not as good as they used to be, therefoe no matter how close the league is , its not as high a quality as it was....

[Garrincha]

Originally posted by Drummer
Again you think that the Serie A has the best players when the 2 best (arguably3 Figo) players are in spain and wouldnt go to ITALY. Probobley because Spanish football is more exciting, even if the league isnt close sometimes, or the same teams win it.


Actually, the reason many players run away from Italy is the high level of tactical demands in there. Zidane has mentioned that in past interviews, as well as Kluivert. Serie A has such an intense tactical work that it scares off many players who know they'll have to work twice as hard in there. Zidane has a kind of freedom to play in Spain that he would never have in the midfield of an Italian club. Same with Kluivert: In Italia, the strikers are the first line of defense; in Spain, he can just harass the defenders a little bit and his coach is happy.

Can we blame them? If YOU had a choice between one high-prestige job where you had a heavy workload and a higher level of competition, and another high-prestige job where you would work less and have more space to shine - which would you pick? ;) Zidane chose to shine in the open spaces, where he can dribble and run without bothering to mark people.

Which doesn't make Serie A better or worse than anything. It's just a fact, Serie A has a higher level of tactical warfare, the game systems in Italia are more elaborate than in other places. And this is not necessarily "better" or "best", just different.

The fact is: If soccer with wide open spaces is your thing, then Italy isn't for you. But if you like your matches intensely competitive and with few open spaces, there's no better. :rolling:

[ItalianBoy]

Garrin, please stop soundindg so sophisticated. In Italy the attack is the first like on of defense? OK!
In Italy you have loads of freedom of play. Of course ther are tactical things but its not like in spain they dont. and plus Zidane is doing terribly in spain! If it wasent for Juve! Zidane would be no one!!!!!! And Rivaldo might come to Juve so please shut up! And plus what about Players like Batistuta! ronaldo! I think you guys didnt even read what I wrote. It seems that you guys still insist that there is no better. THERE IS! It seems that you dont care if your C is good or no but I think that Drummer liking EPL HATES SERIE A! WHY!? cuz its the best! Players and everything else! And please lets stop with this crap that ITA havent done well in the past 3-4 years, Lazio wen to 1-4 finals and Juve dint do good, and milan went to 1/2- final.
Ok, teams have theyr momennts, still saying that ITA serie A is not the best cuz you dont WANT to say it it and make up all the weirdest excuses! And would go to Italy!?
Of course, they know that they would work theyr ass off! Players like Nesta and Maldini arent in the LIga! You got Viejo hierro and thats it! All the players want to come to SERIE A! Denilson said that after some years in Liga he wants to come to ITA cuz thats his dream!
And Drum is saying that UP TP THIS year the ITA havent done well, so ok, In the PAST they dint do good but since they are NOW it still means that we are the best!

[ItalianBoy]

And plus I didnt say that you HAVE to watch the SERIE A. To me Real plays AWEFUL! they are so boring! I guess the spended so much money that now you H?AVE to say that they are good. Barcelona is the best! I like Deportivo too. Italian soccer not fun to watch! Drum you lost it! ITA soccer is awesome! IF you prefer to watch EPL or ARG soccer ok fine, but the fatcs are there. ITA SEIRE A until now is the best. Its like if you like to drive a Dodge Durango, of course is a good car but of course Mercedes is better and Ferrari is th best! Thats a fact!

[Drummer]

On the point of

"In Italy you have loads of freedom of play"

So much freedom to play that the likes of verona and Lazio fans havent seen more then 6 or 7 goals in their clubs games (for or against them). Where is the openness there?? Again Ronaldo hasnt played consistantly since 1998, so its not fair to say that he is one of the worlds best, maybe when he plays bit not at the mo...
I dont hate the Serie A, I just dont like people making huge comments about their team or league being the best (no acceptions) and giving hollow reasons that could be used by differant people supporting leagues at differant times ( most exciting etc.). I get enough of this in Ireland having to listen to the English media convincing its fans that their league and international team are the best. I think neiter to be true , especially about the national team. After the beat Germany 5-1(shhhhhh, dont say it too loud!) alot of their fans were begginbg for them to get the Argentines (who would destroy them ) . This is so sad and alot down to the media but its so annoying talking to a person that changes their reason for their comments to suit themselves.......
When were milan in the semi final????
Maldini is over the hill by the way, just like tony adams...

THE ITALIAN LEAGUE IS BEST AT WHAT IT DOES , BORE THE PANTS OFF PEOPLE LOOKING FOR "EXCITING GAMES" WITH MANY GOALS........iT MAY BE AN EXCITING LEAGUE AS A WHOLE BUT THE MATCHES ARE SHIT BORING TO WATCH..
Again I will point to the FACTS of veron and Lazio (1 of Italys best) having an average of less than 1 goal in their game for or against them. Aston Villa having an average of 2 goals in their games (for or against them). Aston villa having the worst average in the EPL. United have scored 27 and conceded 17, total = 43 in 10 games. This suggests that the odds are that you will see at least 4 goals for or against United in the league this season for or against them!! Very unexciting..........
Of course this depends on what you are looking for in an exciting game, so opinions can differ, so dont start attacking MY VIEW because you obviously love your league so much it blinds you to the truth. i dont care how much the EPL is , all i care is that United win it, I have no need for blinkers ........

[ItalianBoy]

Drum you lost it!
A league is not the best because of many goals!
A game can be super exciting, like ITA games, and still end 0-0!!!!
Excuse me but I watch every single game in the ITA serie A, or at least ALL the goals ( given to a program I got on SAT). I do watch also Spanish games and they too dont have scores like 5-4! They got AWEFUL GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Real is all hype! And many of the players that came to ITA from spain SUCK!!!!!!!!!!! WHY! Cuz thye had all of this hype in SPain given that they do not have players like Stam, Nesta, Maldini, Cannavaro, tudor, Montero thuram, Samuel, Zago, F.couto and the list goes on, to stop them, so of course they will be good in ESP!
But in the BEST!, most competitive, best players etc, they suck ass!
Mendieta! Lopez! Guardiola! Kovacevic! In spain they were gods but here they suck!
And guess what! Figo dosent want to come to Italy, he said himself, in spain is much easier to be good! Zidane too, said that in Italy its hard to be good, you have to work your ass off!
So please! The best league until now in is the SERIE A! If you like to watch EPL or ARG aperutra/clausura fine! we want stop you! but you have to admit and be honest with yourself and say that until, and watch how many times I said until, now the best is italy.
I do like MANU, Arsenal etc, Barcelona iis one great team! Still the best is us!

I dont get blinded, I can be sportive and admit that Barcelona and MANU are great teams! Same when Juve lost against Hamburgo last CL season! we sucked! but we good!

[Drummer]

Saying that united etc are good teams are good is not sporting . Its called honesty, something you arent too familiar with, even to yourself.. So exciting players that play beautiful football like mendieta and lopez cant play their exciting brand of football in Italy , which makes the Italian league exciting?? It means that its a tough league (I never said it wasnt). The league of Ireland is tough, I am sure that those players wouldnt look as exciting playing in less exciting leagues because they arent allowed the freedom that they get in the spanish or EPL. Personally I think exciting games are very open. More goals in games are normally more exciting than 0-0 draws and 1-0 victories.

I used to watch italian football, I have seen Full Italian games (on channel 4) and very seldomly have I seen an exciting game. The beet game I ever saw was a 4-4 draw between Foggia and I think it was Roma around 1991. Foggia were 4-1 down with about 12 mins to go and poulled it back. They were really exciting team to watch that season. The Italian league is too tactically based , very defensive, less space for top class players to apply their trade. Sure World class players want to be in the toughest league but they want to be able to enjoy their football. Veron didnt want to leave Italy , but he looks a hell of alot happier playing at united, he smiles even when they are trailing teams, and he looks like somebody enjoying his time there. Whatever you say Italian league football is not attacking minded otherwise there would definantly be more goals , no arguement. That was the whole point on goals/against etc. Goals are exciting, 0-0 draws normally arent, as arent 1-0 victories. You can have your irresistable league thats so close and the best teams cant score that many goals. I prefer loads of goals and action....
Again your opinion on what makes a world class league and most other peoples opinion are totally differant. If you could tell me where one can get that special cigarette you smoke than please post the name and adress of your supplier!!!!!!!!

[ItalianBoy]

Drum, Nah really smart ass!? more goals make a game more exciting!??? REALLY!!!!!!!!! Thank god you are here to tell me!
Please drum, I read what you said and you got some serious problems! I am dropping it here given that you have no idea what you are talking about and for sure never saw any ITA games or any other league! Only EPL! I DO watch soccer from all over and yes I am HONEST, something you dont even know the meaning of! given the BS you say that has no sense at all!
So exciting players that play beautiful football like mendieta and lopez cant play their exciting brand of football in Italy , which makes the Italian league exciting??

Thats cuz they suck and they dont have other good difenders to stop them, like EPL! a good players is good anywhere! look at Stam! he was great in EPl and great in Lazio! Veron, etc.
So please, take your BS for the fellow losers like yourself that make evrything up just not to admit the truth! that until now the ITA SERIE A IS THE BEST LEAGUE!
you are making the dumbest commenst and sorry but differently than you I DO NOT smoke! I think you do given you asked me!

[Drummer]

You really cant accept that the Italian league is not up there at the top like it once was. How come its not a shock (around europe) that Italian teams keep losing in european competitions where as the milans and juve's won all their games in the 90's and when they lost people would stand up and listen or be shocked???? Lazio lost to Nantes yet nobody is bothered that they are out.....
Oh yeh its because Italian teams dont care much for the CL. Between the years 1990 and 1998 Italy (bar 1 year ) had a team in the final each year. Since then 2 teams have gotten to the Quarter finals (lazio in 2000, Inter in 1999) and 1 team to the Semi- Finals (Juve 1999). They are not a European super power anymore no matter how exciting (you think) the league is.... Since then Spain has had 3 teams in the finals (valencia twice and madrid) two teams in the quarter finals- Depritvo (2001) and Madrid (1999) and one team in the Semi-finals Barcelona (2000). These are 4 teams from La Liga that have done better than the best that 3 Italian teams have done in the same time period. remember we are talking about current status (over the last few years). This suggests that while the Italian league is closer (among teams in it) its not as high a quality because the teams cant beat the best of Europe.
Now i know that this is all tooo hard to take in and accept but they are facts

Fact- Spanish teams have been better then Italian teams in the Cl for the past 3 years.

Fact - Italian league has been close in recent years.

Fact - The teams that have battled in this league have done poor in europe .

This suggests that while the Italian league is close , the teams in it are not as good as they used to be, therefore the quality of the league is questionable. More tough games - true. But its a question of the actual quality of these teams that is open to discussion.

[ItalianBoy]

I see you know nothing about soccer, are you 12? you must be otherwise you got some IQ problems.
Real, Arsenal lost theyr last game too!
Juve are first in the gruop and roma should have been!
thats 2 teams from Italy if you didnt know. Plus we were talking BEST Champiosnhip! that means that you have to count the C itself! If we wanna talk about Europe or world than its another thing! Real lost 2-1 agains boca from ARg, but guess what? Roma won 3-1 against them! so I guess that Roma is WAY better than real, given also the late result! And please ITa dint do as they usually did and thats winning the final, for like 2-3 years, so what! that dosent mean anything! As of now we are doing awesome! and our C too! So please stop posting this useless phrases like : The truth is too much to take.

O yes........ please drum.......... your post are so sophisticated with such thought.............:rolleyes:
I guess you are turning MY words to you, against me! Please, you can even post! you are finding all the excuses possible to diss the ITA championship! Get Real!: