Current Fifa Rankings [Archive] - Soccer Fans Network Forums

Drummer

10-21-2001, 02:07 PM

Whatever about Italy ( I havent seen much of them) how do you work it outr that England are 5th... Get off the drugs.. Because a team has a great coach does not make them a top team over night.. It took Alex Ferguson 10 Years to create his best side and he is the greatest modern day manager. Erikson brought England through with pure luck.. How many teams get such a crap group and struggle.. Portugal are a world class team in todays game. They won a tough group, unless of course a tough group consists of Germany and Finland and Greece... Englands record is second to many teams in the world, even since Erikson took charge, oh I suppose a draw at home to Greece is a top teams result, and pressure is not an excuse , Ireland beat holland when they had to AT HOME, the top teams win the pressure games.. And as for France The are only the Euro and World Champs so they definantly should be top....You are obviously English or have believed everything you read in the english tabloids.. Good luck if you ever bet on matches.... I just hope that you have money to burn,,:alien:

raul07

10-21-2001, 02:36 PM

hmm.......quite interesting ranking......after next year world cup..we'll see the big change in world ranking...........
i think Argentina,spain,italy,portugal,france,czech will have great chance to go into quarter finale.......i hope that spain can do well next year...but i predict that argentina will win next year world cup.....and i think argentina will be world number 1 after 2002 world cup

Pedro

10-21-2001, 04:31 PM

Ha ha ha. I.t.boy, thank you for the laugh. England 5???? And my beloved Portugal doesn't make your list??? You are too funny my man. Figo is not a great player, but Beckham is? Well, eveyone's entitled to an opinion.

Pedro

10-21-2001, 04:41 PM

In all seriousness now. I think Portugal are easily the most improved among the good teams in recent years, and with luck they could do well in June. As long as they do not suffer injurys to their front line players, and have even luck, they should at least get to the semi finals. Injury is the biggest threat to their success, because they do not have the depth of quality players that others team have.

Drummer, to your comment, I think when reference was made to the Portuguese as "The Brazilians of Europe", it was a compliment and not a knock. The comparison harkened to the fast flowing style and lots of passing that Brazil used to be known for, and which I would love to see them return to.

I know the FIFA ranking system has it's problems, but for the most part I believe the current rankings are accurate.

Drummer

10-21-2001, 11:59 PM

Pedro you must of mistaken what i meant when I said that Portugal shouldnt be compared with the Brazilians. I know what it suggests (greatness) but like the English teams which always live in the shadows of their 66' team, do you want Portugal to live in the shadows of great brazilian teams. i think its better to say that they are the modern entertainers, not the Euro Brazilians, I think that those type of sayings (uro Brazil) while are flattering are not justly fair on the Current Portugese team.

RORO

10-22-2001, 12:04 AM

IRELAND RANKED 20TH?HAHAHA MAN NO JOKE.. NEXT MONTH AFTER IRAN-IRELAND GAME THEY WILL GET RANKED 100TH
HAHAHA
IRELAND R U READY?

IRAAAN IS COMING ...

Drummer

10-22-2001, 01:20 AM

Man you must be on a serious drug session.. I want what you are on.. I never said that Ireland deserve to be 20th whether or not they are. Your , sure as hell , team of rich camel humpers wont go too far. For your sake they better win the Play-offs.. People are allowed to dream, just dont poison this site with utter crap and keep your delusions of grandeur between you and the magic weed you smoke.... Your head is probobley feeling a little bit like this :rolling:

ItalianBoy

10-22-2001, 03:00 AM

ENG has a great team and did not have a crappy group. Germany is not bad and Holland too. And plus, Port had a crappy ass group themself.
Personally I dont see Portugal making it to 1/4 finals. And please, wtahc some MANU games and MORE soccer, I guess you havent seen much given the stuff you are saying. Bekcham is the best in his position, and is worth a lot. Figo, what did he ever do? I saw Figo and to me in Barca he was good, but in REal he is doing terribly. And plus someone that goes from Barcelona to REAL!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats not very good.
I put ENG 5th cuz to me they have a great team, better than Poirt for sure. They got some of the best, while Port has only Rui, which lately hasent been the best, Conceicao, good one, but injured, Couto, took him a long time to be in Lazio starting position, and nuno gomes, dint score much lately. Thats it! ENG has players like Hesky, Owen, Shearer, Phillips, BECKAHM, Gerard, Seaman, Campbell, etc. Loads of players. So please, Port to me is in 8th position. I know you like Port, still I say you wait before giving the WC to Port, before the WC started. Thats all.

JYT2001

10-22-2001, 03:09 AM

Don't really want to comment on the England situation, as even though I am English, I believe England are an overated side. I was reading through this thread though and saw 1 thing which I have to comment on.

Drummer - 'It took Alex Ferguson 10 Years to create his best side and he is the greatest modern day manager.'

Alex Ferguson the greatest modern day manager????? This is absolutely laughable!!!!!

Severus

10-22-2001, 03:24 AM

i don't think england are a better side than portugal. that i will concede. italianboy, did you watch portugal - england in euro2000 ?

furthermore, the group which consisted of portugal, ireland and holland in qualifying was one of the toughest groups there were. group A came a close second but any group which features holland, portugal and ireland is a long way from being a 'crappy ass group'.

my top 5:

france
italia
argentina
brasile
portugal

Drummer

10-22-2001, 11:20 AM

So who is ypur modern day favourate??? Wh ohas won as much domestically and internationally (in Europe), Gerard houllier I suppose... I would really like to know what manager has done as much for a club as Alex fergeson? Its all very easy switching clubs and winning things with differant clubs butstaying at 1`club and keeping them at the top for 10 years is special.... Name a better manager , I suppose Erikson has done more eh???? By the way Im sure you Know that while Man Utd are a rich club they arent quick to part with their money and alot of potentially great managers (you speak of) wouldnt be able to handle that. United have and have had for years players that any manager would dream of -Giggs, Keane, Schmeichal , Cantona, Beckham, Van Nisteriloy etc over the years and more importantly Fergeson has gotten these players to play for him, how many walked away ??? Schmeichal , At the top, who wouldnt?????
Cop on and stop beeing such a jealous bugger.

Drummer

10-22-2001, 08:00 PM

Im presuming that you are either a Liverpool or an abu fan. if not where is your arguement about sir Alex? He has done more for United than any other manager around over the last 10 years . Its 1 thing club hopping and doing well with adopted teams , but starting from scratch and building your own world class team with a plc board like Uniteds up your ass is special. Most 'Top ' class coaches couldnt handle the limits. Its easy to coach big Italian or Spanish clubs with unlimited millions to spend and big squads to choose from. So who is your special manager??? Bearing in mind Tropheys are all that matter...:rolling:

ItalianBoy

10-22-2001, 08:08 PM

I think Alex is a great dude and MANU is a good team.
Still dont forget teams like Napoli, where players like Bagni, Coriandoli MARADONA played. And Juve, Platini, Cabrini, Trapattoni etc. and many more teams to go.

Drummer

10-22-2001, 08:27 PM

f you though it was a bit strong, I was actually replying to that jyp2001 guy who laughed at the thought of Fergi being the greatest modern day manager. There is nobody around who has done as much as him for a single club at the mo....
You should take a look at my message on Greatest goals and greatest under achievers....
Napoli had arguably the greatest player of all time in Maradonna......

JYT2001

10-22-2001, 08:44 PM

Hector Raul Cuper, Fabio Capello and Marcello Lippi are all far better managers than Ferguson. Gerard Houllier?? To even mention him in a post about great managers is a joke.

'Its all very easy switching clubs and winning things with differant clubs butstaying at 1`club and keeping them at the top for 10 years is special'

To be honest it is much harder switching clubs and bringing sucess to them aswell, than to stay at one club in an easier league with the best team and keep winning the league. Remeber he has only won 1 CL trophy in those 10 years. Also they haven't been at the top for 10 years. What were they winning in 1991??

'By the way Im sure you Know that while Man Utd are a rich club they arent quick to part with their money'

However they have an excellent youth system at the club, which is not down to ferguson.

And by the way, what are you basing me being jealous on?? The team I support is more succesful historically than Man Utd.

'Im presuming that you are either a Liverpool or an abu fan.'

Is it not clear from my avater what team I support?? And trust me, I hate Liverpool more than you probably do.

My argument with Ferguson is that you have said that he is the best manager in the world and I do not believe he is.

'Its easy to coach big Italian or Spanish clubs with unlimited millions to spend and big squads to choose from.'

Are you serious?? The Italian league is much harder to win than the EPL!!

You need to stop rambling on with the obviousely biased sh*t that you're talking about.

And at least Eriksson can say that he has won the best league in the world. Instead of winning a league where Arsenal are your only rivals.

JYT2001

10-22-2001, 08:48 PM

'I was actually replying to that jyp2001 guy who laughed at the thought of Fergi being the greatest modern day manager.'

And BTW, do you have problems reading or something?? My name clearly says JYT, or was spelling my username wrong meant to be a joke or something?????

'There is nobody around who has done as much as him for a single club at the mo....'

We are not debating whether he has done more for a club or not, but that he is not the greatest manager.

Drummer

10-22-2001, 09:14 PM

1st of all how do you rate the Italian league as the best .....
Secondly United won the Cup Winners cup in 1991 against Barcelona (who won the euro cup a year later).
Thirdly Fergesun was the man that set up the youth system.
4th any good manager can take over a big club with loads of money and loads of good players only truly great ones can keep them up there..
5th Where is cuper now? What did he win?? A managers resume says what you have won not what you nearly won..
6th Capello is great at moving but why couldnt he keep his teams at the top???
7th Lippi left a sinking ship a few years ago and couldnt make it elsewhwere could he, whats he done since Juve????
8th Its alot easy to swithch clubs, its alot harder to build from scratch, who wants a manager that comes in wins a trophy and pisses off when they are not happy, all those managers are like tyemperamental woman, if something isnt how they like it they are gone, Why wont Capello commit himself to a specific club for more than 2 years.....
9th I didnt ask if your team are more successful historically, you sound like the average English fan ranting on about the 1966 W.C.. You cant live in the past forever.. My original statement was that Fergesun is the greatest modern day manager, not greatest manager since the 60's...
10th How did Italian teams do in Europe last season? 3 English were in the quarter finals.. Oh yeh they were all focusing on the Serie A to worry about Europe....
11th How can you debate a managers status without talking about his record at a club??? Great managers Shankly, Busby clough make their names with success at 1 club. Cuper and Capello will be remembered as 1 win wounders..
12th Im not English and dont like defending their leagues status, but people like you make it easier to defend with stupid comments like 'The Italian league is much harder to win than the EPL!!' when there is no way of proving it other than by looking at how well each countries teams won in Europe. Roma lost to Liverpool(that was hard to write), Leeds beat Milan have I missed anything?????

JYT2001

10-22-2001, 09:48 PM

Answers to your meaningless and ridiculous statements (although I don't know why I bother)

1st - As it is the hardest to win on account of being so many good teams.

2nd - Ooooh yes the CWC that is a highly rated competition that shows that your at the top level in the game isn't it????? I mean it's doing sooo well now isn't it, having been encorporated into the UEFA Cup, whch BTW is also not a high profile competition.

3rd - Bollocks

4th - Keep them up where exactly?? They have won 1 European Cup/ Champion's League title in Ferguson's time and beat Arsenal in the EPL a few times for the title.

5th - Cuper is now at Internazionale 1 point of the top of the league and having taken this team to the top spot alone for the 1st time for the club in 2 years. He also took a very average Valencia side to 2 succesive CL finals. Pretty impressive I'd say.

6th - Manager's success at the highest level is measured on whether he can go and bring success to other clubs aswell as bringing it to just 1.

7th - He went to Inter, unsuccesfully, but now he is back with a largely different Juventus side who are favourites for the Scudetto this season.

8th - But Ferguson was given a hell of a lot more time than managers in Italia and why?? because Italian managers are much more high-pressured and high-profile jobs. If he had been in Italy he would have been fired after a season.

9th - What are you talking about here?? You didn't ask about the success of my club at all. I was pointing out that why would I be jealous of a less succesful team than my own.

'My original statement was that Fergesun is the greatest modern day manager, not greatest manager since the 60's...'

You really do chat some shit don't you. I have only mentioned managers who are currently managing. WTF are you bringing up the 60's for????????????

10th - Italian teams didn't do very well. What's your point?? They reached the Q-finals and then 2 of them were knocked out and the other in the semis. Success can't be measured over 1 season. Take the last 10 years, Italian clubs have been greatly superior in Europe than English teams.

11th - 'How can you debate a managers status without talking about his record at a club???'

Thought we had been talking about managers records at clubs??

12th - It is you who is making stupid comments. It can be proven that the Italian league is harder to win. You know why?? Because there are many top clubs in the Italian League, rather than just 1 or 2 in the EPL. And about the Roma - Liverpool game, Roma just lost to Liverpool (even though they shouldn't have done with the penalty - corner incident) in a competition they didn't really see as important, without their 2 best players ie. Totti and Batistuta. And Milan of last seaon were nothing special.

Now you have been humiliated this much, it would be a lot easier for both of us if you didn't come back with another pathetic excuse for a post, as this took a while to answer

Drummer

10-22-2001, 10:43 PM

if there are so many good teams why cant they do well in any euro competitions.
They won the ecwc when they were building. You asked for what they won in 1991, they idnt even have one of their better teams.
3rd Bollox? fergesun did make the youth system you wanker.
4th whats your point? what club has won as many competitions as Man utd in the last 10 years??? whether it be winning the crap premiership full of teams that beat Italian teams ( leeds also beat lazio last season) in europe.
5th What has cuper won to make him so good????
6th Who wants a manager that pisses off after winning one competition. Capello still hasnt won as many trophies as fergi.... Capello's not capable of keeping a team up there, thats why he keeps moving..
7th So he was wrong to move.. Thank you for proving me right.. Why didnt he stay?? Because he let the next man take the rap for Juves decline.
8th Man United are more supported than any italian team . Managing united wasnt easy.. He was nearly fired before he won the FA cup in 1990. The Italian league isnt the only league with pressure. Im not pro-England, just anti-bullshitters full of their own media hype....
9th How successful have your club been in the LAST 10 YEARS????? Screw what they did 20 or 30 years ago... Do I care for the answer, No!! Liverpool were the most successful team in Europein the late 70's and the 80's but that doesnt stop them from being jealous of united now..
Lastly you are tthe twat who is humiliated.I am defending a country who I have been slagging off for years, therefore I have nothing much to gain from being right or much to lose from being wrong. Your points are all from your instinct to defend your country's brittle position in world football. Nobody fears the Italian teams any more. They may not fear the English teams but Italy's teams and league have to take a back seat to the Spanish (especially) and english teams and Bayern Munich...
My point aboput Italian teams crap performance in europe is to prove your point about Italy havingh the best league wrong.. All these great teams that cannot win outside your country , how does that make your league so good then???? Alot of teams in Germany and France are close does that make their leagues the best??????

Drummer

10-22-2001, 10:51 PM

If milan were so bad against leeds , how did they do so well ,in such a brilliant and hard league , to qualify for the champions league in the 1st place?? Surely they wouldnt go from being a top team in 'THE' top league to being crap in a few months.....
I suppose Lazio were the same..... And Roma didnt try.. Winners and great teams try to win ALL games. The truth is that Italian teams arent capable or good enough of winning 2 tournaments at once , that is any tournament outside the Italian league..

ItalianBoy

10-23-2001, 06:17 AM

Drummer, please leave your pathetic comments to other baord.
Its a known fact that the SERIE A is the best league ever. So please shut up, please shut up!
(Eminem)

:rolleyes:

Severus

10-23-2001, 03:17 PM

so drummer according to your faulty logic the EPL is a better league than serie A because man utd won in 1999 by a fluke i might add ... cos english clubs didnt do anything which would even resemble the domination italian clubs had in europe throughout the 90's.

furthermore, in the last 3 seasons, the scudetto was won on the very last day. when did man utd clinch their championship ... in december ? gimme a break buddy. i usually don't side with JYT but this time i must admit he's been hammering you in every direction.

Severus

10-23-2001, 03:29 PM

as for leeds v milan last season the only reason leeds won at home was because of butter fingers dida giving up that horrendous goal near the end. otherwise milan would've successfully walked out of leeds with a point --- if you'll remember.

milan 1 - 1 leeds : milan had nothing to play for cos besiktas and barca were out of contention.

Pedro

10-23-2001, 04:56 PM

Well Drummer, I thought we were mostly in agreement, but c'mon, I thought it was self evident that the best soccer to be seen happens in the Italian and Spanish leagues.

Severus, um thanks for setting your countryman straight on the subject of Portugal and England. Geez I.t. boy but you DO come out with some amusing statements where the chips and eggs boys are concerned.

I.t.boy, joking aside, I'm curious - what makes you think Beckham is such a great player, while Figo is not? Obviously, I have a bias, but when I see a REAL game, they're entire strategy seems based aroung one guy - Figo. That may change with Zidane on the scene, but for now no. Compare the situation at Man U. Sure Beckham has flashes of good performance, and he's a consistently good free kicker - but playmaker? I don't see it.

Drummer

10-23-2001, 08:15 PM

Where is the logic on Serie A being the best League. I have not once mentioned the 1999 euro cup. I said that a statement like that needs to be backed up with evidence. What evidence has anybody got that Serie A is The best. Its certainly not the most exciting. I wont argue with the Spanish league.
The only way you can even remotely (however unaffective) gauge how good a league is in europe. What does that mean that the league has been decided on the last day?? So what Im sure that if the National League of Ireland was decided on the last day of the season a few years in a row , we wouldnt be calling it the best league or the most exciting would we. You may not agree with what I say but at least i back my statements up with evidence , not accusations...

JYT2001

10-23-2001, 10:07 PM

First can I just say, Drummer, that seeing as you didn't reply to points 10, 11 and 12 of my corrections of your original and pitifull statements, that you know realise that you were completely wrong here, yet aren't big enough to admit when you've made a mistake?? Good, one-quarter of your argument I have made you see sense on. Now let me try to help you on the remaining 9 points and subsequently your ridiculous statement on ferguson being the best modern day manager.

'if there are so many good teams why cant they do well in any euro competitions.'

Is it me or are Juventus currently top of their CL group?? Better than Man Utd are doing. Also Roma are only second to arguably the best team in the world ie. Real Madrid.

'They won the ecwc when they were building. You asked for what they won in 1991, they idnt even have one of their better teams.'

Exactly, they were building. Therefore they haven't been at the top for 10 years like you said they had. (BTW thank you, it makes it EVEN easier if you prove my points for me.)

3rd - Ferguson had nothing to do with any of the players who have come through the youth ranks at MU, before they were in the first team squad. Wanker.

4th - There are teams who have won more in the last 10 years, such as AC Milan, but that is not the point. Again you are proving my point here, that there is no competition in the EPL. Man Utd are clearly the best team, yet only once, through extreme good luck, have they won the CL/Euro Cup.

5th - Cuper has won 2 Coppa Del Rays and has reached 3 European Finals, including 2 CL Finals, with by no means one of the very top sides in Europe. To reach 2 succesive CL Finals without one of the top teams, IMO is a phenomenal acheivement.

6th - Capello has won more meaningful trophies than Ferguson ie. not including Worthington Cup and CWC etc. Ferguson has won JUST 1 CL/Euro Cup title in the last 10 years with Man U. If Glenn Roeder had been managing them over that period he would have won as many EPL titles, as Man U have been clearly the best team in England for a while, there is no competition.

7th - Yes he was wrong to move on that particular occasion. But, HOW THE F*CK DOES THIS PROVE YOU RIGHT??????????????????

8th - I didn't say that the Italian League was the only league with pressure, just that it has undoubtedly the most.

9th - Not very succesful. Still doesn't mean I am jealous of Man U, just because I don't believe that Ferguson is not the greatest modern day manager. Common occurence though, so I should probably expect it from you, when anyone questions anything about a team who has had some success and they know they have no decent argument to come back with, the word jealousey often seems to jump into the equation.

'Your points are all from your instinct to defend your country's brittle position in world football.'

<SIGH> Wrong again. My points are simple common sense and some knowledge of the game of football. Brittle position in world football?? You are showing your ignorance again here.

'If milan were so bad against leeds , how did they do so well ,in such a brilliant and hard league , to qualify for the champions league in the 1st place??'

I didn't say Milan were so bad against Leeds. As Severus pointed out, they won from an unbelievable error by their goalkeeper, who incidently was not their 1st choice goalkeeper anyway. Besides, I never said they were bad the season they qualified for the CL, just that they were nothing special DURING that season, which can be seen from their league positioning of 6th.

' And Roma didnt try.. '

Didn't say Roma didn't try, just that they were not TOO bothered about the secondary European competition, when they were concentrating on the all-important scudetto.

'The truth is that Italian teams arent capable or good enough of winning 2 tournaments at once'

Tell that one to Milan and Juventus.

' So what Im sure that if the National League of Ireland was decided on the last day of the season a few years in a row , we wouldnt be calling it the best league or the most exciting would we.'

We are not debating on whether it is the most exciting league in the world, that is merely down to opinion. The point about the scudetto being decided on the last day of the season, is to show just how much TOP-QUALITY competition there is in the Italian league.

And BTW, about your thread in the Spanish Leagues and NT, there is no point in answering to both of your threads, as they are basically the same. OK??

Finally, one major factor in determining the best league, which you have conveniently left out, is the players that are attracted to the League.

Top-Quality players in the EPL: (no particular order)
Thierry Henry
Patrick Viera
Juan Sebastian Veron
David Beckham
Ruud Van Nistlerooy

Top-Quality players in the Serie A:
Gianuligi Buffon
Lilian Thuram
Edgar Davids
Allessandro Del Piero
David Trezeguet
Marcelo Salas
Francesco Toldo
Javier Zanetti
Ronaldo
Christian Vieri
Paolo Maldini
Manuel Rui Costa
Andrei Shevchenko
Allessandro Nesta
Gaizka Mendieta
Hernan Jorge Crespo
Claudio Lopez
Francesco Totti
Vincenzo Montella
Gabriel Batistuta
Fabio Cannavaro
Roberto Baggio

The list is endless!! I mean there are more players in that list from Juventus alone, than in the entire EPL.

The Italian League is clearly better than the EPL. Nobody will blame you or go on about it if you dont reply to this post, as if I had been humiliated in this way, neither would I.

LATERZ FOOL!!

Severus

10-23-2001, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by Drummer
What does that mean that the league has been decided on the last day?? So what Im sure that if the National League of Ireland was decided on the last day of the season a few years in a row , we wouldnt be calling it the best league or the most exciting would we. You may not agree with what I say but at least i back my statements up with evidence , not accusations...

so let's just say fenerbahce, gala and besiktas made up 3/4 of the semi finals. would the turkish league be the best then ?

Drummer

10-24-2001, 12:01 AM

I will try to keep this short. 1st of all , we are talking about how italian teams have done over the last few years. Winning the premiership is a meaning ful trophy . Why havent italian teams do well in Europe if they have so many good players and teams?? Again having a closely faught league doesnt mean that its great or special. I will point out again the fact that EPL had 3 teams in the quarter finals (one, Leeds which couldnt even finish in the top 3 of the EPL). Just because the league isnt close doesnt make it a bad one. When Milan and Juventus where winning everything was the Italian league shite... So Juve are top of their group, with a little help from the ref at home to celtic. This brings me to the point on the Milan defeat to Leeds, heyteams have bad days all teams play without their best players sometimes , so dont use that petty excuse. What about the other 4 Italian teams?????
You dismiss the Premiership all too easily......
Capello has won more meaningful trophies in your view, not everybodys, You rate Serie A too much.
I am right about lippi because surely a manager with such skill and brilliance would be able to remain at the helm and bring Juve back to the top himself. He did leave a sinking ship.
What have Milan and Juve done in the last 5 years. I said that Italian football was best in late 180's and early to mid 1990's.
You have nothing to back up your statements
Where are and what were the points I didnt answer????
I dont really care if the EPL is crap or not, Serie A certainly isnt the best league in the world....
You see that list of world class players, they are players you considert be world class if we are going to mention Bagiio , then what about Alan Shearer? Roy Keane (remember he helped Ireland beat Italy in 1994??), Ryan Giggs, Michael Owen, Steven gerrard (up and coming) destroyed the Germans, Kewell and Bowyer(great against superior Italian teams Lazio and Milan last season) Sheringham, Hasselbank, Petit to name but a few. You will notice most of these players played on winning teams against the superior Italians at some stages in the last few years.
Ronaldo has played a handful of games in the last few years so he id more a spectator. Buffon is not as good as hes made out to be, Italian keepers cannot catch a ball (30 odd million for him!! Even if Barthez is playing poor, hes still a WC winner therefore is a recognised World class player).
Again with all these world class players why havent they won in europe over the last 5 years

Drummer

10-24-2001, 12:05 AM

You must be taking the piss about fergusons involvement in the youth system. He set the whole system up you asshole.. All the home grown players are there because of him...

Drummer

10-24-2001, 12:16 AM

In response to your turkish question Severus , then the turkish league would have to be considered a good league... How does a country ever wedge the Italians as best league , whenb it doesnt make a differance how they do in europe.

My overall point is that to say that the Serie A is the best league is Bollox unless you can give evidence to prove it. Their teams cant do well in europe , which proves that the league is not as good as it used to be, they have the best players there yet they cant perform outside Italy. It was 5 years ago the undisputed Best league in the world , but recently it has diminished, whereas the english and Spanish leagues have gotten stronger, evidence being their Euro Domination... The germans have a strong team (Bayern). But the premier league has now got more teams that can get to the latter stages , that is what sets them apart from Italy. its not a shock if Italian teams are beaten ..........

Severus

10-24-2001, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Drummer
I will try to keep this short. 1st of all , we are talking about how italian teams have done over the last few years. Winning the premiership is a meaning ful trophy . Why havent italian teams do well in Europe if they have so many good players and teams?? Again having a closely faught league doesnt mean that its great or special. I will point out again the fact that EPL had 3 teams in the quarter finals (one, Leeds which couldnt even finish in the top 3 of the EPL). Just because the league isnt close doesnt make it a bad one. When Milan and Juventus where winning everything was the Italian league shite... So Juve are top of their group, with a little help from the ref at home to celtic. This brings me to the point on the Milan defeat to Leeds, heyteams have bad days all teams play without their best players sometimes , so dont use that petty excuse. What about the other 4 Italian teams?????
You dismiss the Premiership all too easily......
Capello has won more meaningful trophies in your view, not everybodys, You rate Serie A too much.
I am right about lippi because surely a manager with such skill and brilliance would be able to remain at the helm and bring Juve back to the top himself. He did leave a sinking ship.
What have Milan and Juve done in the last 5 years. I said that Italian football was best in late 180's and early to mid 1990's.
You have nothing to back up your statements
Where are and what were the points I didnt answer????
I dont really care if the EPL is crap or not, Serie A certainly isnt the best league in the world....
You see that list of world class players, they are players you considert be world class if we are going to mention Bagiio , then what about Alan Shearer? Roy Keane (remember he helped Ireland beat Italy in 1994??), Ryan Giggs, Michael Owen, Steven gerrard (up and coming) destroyed the Germans, Kewell and Bowyer(great against superior Italian teams Lazio and Milan last season) Sheringham, Hasselbank, Petit to name but a few. You will notice most of these players played on winning teams against the superior Italians at some stages in the last few years.
Ronaldo has played a handful of games in the last few years so he id more a spectator. Buffon is not as good as hes made out to be, Italian keepers cannot catch a ball (30 odd million for him!! Even if Barthez is playing poor, hes still a WC winner therefore is a recognised World class player).
Again with all these world class players why havent they won in europe over the last 5 years

baggio to shearer ???????????????????????????

i don't have anything more to say to you cos its obvious you don't know what you're talking about. come back to me when you can actually post something intelligent.

ciao

ItalianBoy

10-24-2001, 12:19 AM

Drummer, Please shut up!
your BS are just too much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you Ivan's brother?
ManU is a good team, and Arsenal too, still DO NOT compare the whole league, cuz for your 2 teams, we have WAY better teams, players, way of playing, and guess what?
Chievo is kicking ass, in the Liga and EPl, its ALWAYS the same teams that won, Barcelona, Real, (deportivo), ManU, Manu, Arsenal, thats it!!!!!!!!!
Cuz thats the only teams that have a chance!
In Italy EVERY team has a chance at the start!
look at Chievo!, Brescia etc, last year Atalanta was beating Juve etc. And not only we got WAY more top world players than you. So, just cuz in the last 3 years, we havent won some hting in Europe, it dosent mean that the EPL or Liag are better, cuz they havent done anything yet, when the Liga will dominate the Cl and Uefa for 20-30 years in a row, than come back here, and we might talk about it.Until than, you are a s'ittalker!

Drummer

10-24-2001, 12:33 AM

I was being told that the Italian league was so good because of all the good big clubs it has . Look at how close the premiership is now, does that not mean that its brilliant ???
So Italy will be the best league until a country dominates Europe for 20 odd years no matter how crap the Italians do in Europe, OK............

Drummer

10-24-2001, 12:35 AM

Again P.s to jyp , if Madrid are the best in the world why are they so low in their league, and why are Bayern the champions of europe? They may have the best players but they certainly are not the best team in Europe at the mo, yet Roma still lost to them!!!!!!!!!!!!

FANTA

10-24-2001, 03:18 AM

i don't see how clubs competing in european competitions have anything to do with what league is better. dynamo kyiv have made it to the semi-finals a couple of times in recent years, so i guess that means the ukrainian league is better than italy, england, or spain. :confused:

but if you must, then italy is has been far superior than any country from 1989 -->

since '89, 9 out of the 12 CL finals have seen an italian team reach that stage. while england have had .... 1 ? yeah the last couple of years italian clubs have failed but they'll always be the great force in europe.

i don't care about any of that anyway, because we then get to this quote:

Originally posted by Drummer

I will try to keep this short. 1st of all , we are talking about how italian teams have done over the last few years. Winning the premiership is a meaning ful trophy . Why havent italian teams do well in Europe if they have so many good players and teams?? Again having a closely faught league doesnt mean that its great or special. I will point out again the fact that EPL had 3 teams in the quarter finals (one, Leeds which couldnt even finish in the top 3 of the EPL). Just because the league isnt close doesnt make it a bad one.

just because the league isnt close dosent make it a bad one.

no it dosen't, but it certainly dosen't make it the best one either. where's all the excitment in watching manUTD wrapping up the title by december ? it may be good for the manUTD fans, but what about all the other fans, and neutral supporters ??

as for the first bit of that quote about teams in europe compared to ones in the league, hmm ...

how do i break this down,

-- english clubs doing well in europe over recent years, and the EPL being dominated by manUTD; say around 10 pts clear of second spot.

-- italian clubs failing in europe, yet from positions 1 to 5, any team still has a decent chance at the title.

do you see what im getting at ?

italian teams may be concentrating more on their league than europe, while english teams (other than manUTD) have already given up on the league as they see it lost, so they mainly concentrate on europe.

pretty hard to explain but should'nt be too hard to grasp.

NOW, what good is a league when even the CLUBS have given up on it ????

ITALY + SPAIN IS WHERE ITS AT !

FANTA

10-24-2001, 03:26 AM

and also, the best 'modern day' manager around would have to be trappatoni. if he was english he would've been a "sir" long before his reddness king fergie of fergieland.

ItalianBoy

10-24-2001, 05:12 AM

First of all the ITA league its supposed to be the best cuz of its players, teams, play, and excitment etc. no one said that the other suck, to me liga is the second best and EPl is 3rd. Plus, I dont know how this thing that if some teams do good in europe thats where the best league is.
So Juventus is 1st in theyr group, Roma second maybe 1st, we will see tomorrows game and Lazio is almost there! Real is first Deportivo is second and Barcelona are doing good, MAn U are first Arsenal I guess etc, ITA teams are doing great, but for some reason, people got this idea, from the media, that the spanish teams are better, when in fact they only have names, sure RCARLOS is good, but please, not let Figo pass for this amazing player, cuz even the BRA got way better players than him. So to end this, until now the ITA is still the best, no one said it will be for ever, still for now it is.

Drummer

10-24-2001, 01:28 PM

you all seem to think that Im saying that the EPL is the best league, but I didint say that.
"yeah the last couple of years italian clubs have failed but they'll always be the great force in europe. "
Thsi just shows that no matter what happens you will always think the Italian league is best so theres obviously no point in discussing this with you...

"no it dosen't, but it certainly dosen't make it the best one either. where's all the excitment in watching manUTD wrapping up the title by december ? it may be good for the manUTD fans, but what about all the other fans, and neutral supporters"

So a league is measured by how exciting it is?????

"-- italian clubs failing in europe, yet from positions 1 to 5, any team still has a decent chance at the title."

Again , any good or bad league can be close and have several teams close at the top, would we call them the best league if Irelands league had 3 or 4 or 5 teams fighting at the top..
you see I never said that the league wasnt close or exciting, I said that a league should have both Euro success
as well as an exciting league to be classed a world class league. Spain is the nearest at the Mo ............

"talian teams may be concentrating more on their league than europe"

Why because they cant focus on 2 tournaments??? The top 4 in Italy qualify for the C.L and none of them are interested, this is news....

Trappatoni,what has he won in the last 4 years?? Great managers are consistant. Maybe he was the best around the mid 90's. Just because you think the EPL is crap doesnt meam it is. he has won what hes had to win.

You cant rate a team or a league over a month Italian boy. One of yee is saying that Italian teams focus more on the league the other is saying "Look at how they are doing now". They are top at the group stages, so what, anybody half decent can top a group in the early stages and either way they havent gotten anywhere meaningfull yet (quarter finals) , so save it. i can hear you about to say that United arent top of their group, well the best teams save their best for the stages where they need it most..The winners of hte C.L havent traditionally started the champions league well.......

Again saying that the Serie A will always be the best or that its the most exciting with (in your opinion) the best players is all speculation not facts etc... Alot of those players are overrated . its assumed that because they do well in th Italian league that they must be special. I thought that the English were full of themselves (internationally and about their league EPL) but the points being posted are taking the biscuit.. The Italian league wasnt always this close, Juve, milan etc but it was still the best league then, what does that mean???? Oh yeh its the Italian league.........................

FANTA

10-25-2001, 01:42 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Drummer
you all seem to think that Im saying that the EPL is the best league, but I didint say that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so what do you think is the best league then ?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thsi just shows that no matter what happens you will always think the Italian league is best so theres obviously no point in discussing this with you...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ok then.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So a league is measured by how exciting it is?????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

no but it helps.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that a league should have both Euro success
as well as an exciting league to be classed a world class league. Spain is the nearest at the Mo ............
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and since 1989 italy has had more success than any other league.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why because they cant focus on 2 tournaments??? The top 4 in Italy qualify for the C.L and none of them are interested, this is news....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sometimes. look at roma last season. they couldn't care less about the uefa cup, and they went on to the the scudetto. italian teams are interested but they are maybe more interested in the scudetto, while english clubs concentrate more in europe because their title race is over.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trappatoni,what has he won in the last 4 years?? Great managers are consistant. Maybe he was the best around the mid 90's. Just because you think the EPL is crap doesnt meam it is. he has won what hes had to win.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

where did i say that i thought the EPL was crap ? :confused:

as for trapattoni, he's got a CV that would make fergie weep.

what he's done as a coach:

1976: Coaches Milan to ninth title in Serie A in first season as manager
1977: Takes over at Juventus and wins league title and UEFA Cup in first year in charge
1978: Juventus retains league title
1981: Juventus wins league title
1982: Juventus retains league title
1984: Juventus completes league and European Cup Winners' Cup double
1985: Juventus wins first European Cup with 1-0 victory over Liverpool in the tragic Heysel Stadium final
1986: Juventus wins sixth league title under Trapattoni, who then resigns to join Inter Milan
1989: Wins unprecedented seventh Italian title, guiding Inter Milan to the scudetto with a record number of points
1991: Inter beats AS Roma to win UEFA Cup
1992: Returns to crisis-ridden Juventus
1993: Coaches Juventus side containing Gianluca Vialli and Roberto Baggio to UEFA Cup
1994: Leaves Juventus to make way for Marcello Lippi, takes over at Bayern Munich but resigns at end of turbulent season, complaining of language difficulties
1996: Returns to Serie A as Cagliari manager but sacked for first time in career after 21 matches
1997: Returns to Bayern to win Bundesliga title
1998: Returns to Serie A, manages Fiorentina to fourth in Serie A and a place in Champions League
1999: Resigns as Fiorentina manager 2000: July 6, appointed Italy manager on two-year contract.

well he was on track to win the scudetto with fiorentina but batistuta wrecked his hamstring mid season and that totally killed all the momentum they had and lost it from there. and as it says he resigned in '99 and now is coach of italy.

what has he done the last 4 years you say ??????????? not consistent ?????? oh my gosh.

Drummer

10-25-2001, 02:47 AM

I said what has trappitonni won in the last few years??? trappitoni is not the current greatest manager in football because he is retired. Inever said he once wasnt the best manager did I???

Since 1989 Italy has had most sucess!! Since 1997 how has it done. english fans could say that since the 1970's , english clubs (notably Liverpool) have been the best and would of conttinued this had they not been banned from euro football!!(note i said english fans would argue)
You are the person bringing up the past. I have been trying to talk about the more recent events in euro football, more recent being the last 5 years, where is all this 1989 crap coming from????
Roma werent the only Italian club to fall foul of anenglish club, Milan and lazio didnt do too well , parma couldnt even beat Rangers!!!!!!!!! You kep on bringing up facts that are outdated, when Italian teams dominate europe again their league will unquestionably be the best again, but when they cannot and have not proved themselves against the best europe has to offer then they will have to accept that they are not the best anymore...

Trappitoni won the Uefa Cup (which no good team tries in, your words) twice and the Bundesliga in the 1990's, great record, very consistant. I will remind you that a manager is rated on what they win, not how near they were to something (ie the rest of the 90's)!!
In the 80's he won 7 league titles (8 in total, I believe English football was a stronger league at the time!!), CWC and the euro cup... So it would be fair to say that he was the manager of the 80's...
Isnt it funny, Fergesun has won more, including the CWC and the Euro cup.. Hes won the EPL 7 times ,the FA cup 4 times and the league cup once and he is still not finished . It doesnt matter what you think of the league, that is more than impressive to be up there with the best.
Im not saying that fergi is better , Im saying that he is definantly the most consistantly successful manager of the 90's (modern day) and the proof is in the cabinet.. Again saying that the EPL is crap is not an arguement.......

FANTA

10-25-2001, 03:21 AM

oh give me a break puh-leeaze !

you are not answering any of my questions (avoiding most likely) and twisting around my words to fit your arguement.

looks like im gonna have to be dissecting all of your posts until you start makin' sense here.

I said what has trappitonni won in the last few years??? trappitoni is not the current greatest manager in football because he is retired. Inever said he once wasnt the best manager did I???

i've already told you what he's done. he was coach of fiorentina. he is NOT retired, he is coach of italy. besides taking italy to the world cup, he hasen't won anything major in the past 4 years (yet).

You are the person bringing up the past. I have been trying to talk about the more recent events in euro football, more recent being the last 5 years, where is all this 1989 crap coming from????
Roma werent the only Italian club to fall foul of anenglish club, Milan and lazio didnt do too well , parma couldnt even beat Rangers!!!!!!!!! You kep on bringing up facts that are outdated,

when Italian teams dominate europe again their league will unquestionably be the best again,
but when they cannot and have not proved themselves against the best europe has to offer then they will have to accept that they are not the best anymore...

would'nt the last 5 years be THE PAST as well ???!!! hell, 1 second ago is THE PAST.

oh, we forget about what italian clubs have done throughout he '90's and just look at "recent" results, because that's when italian clubs haven't done so well ??????? that's pretty convenient.

and the part i highlited in bold, that is complete and utter BS it's not even funny. how clubs do in europe has nothing to do with what league is the best !! how many times must i say this ??

why is that the case ??? lets take roma losing out to liverpool in the uefa cup last year (because you like the "recent" events). now, according to your logic, roma didn't do well in europe because they are in a league full of teams that aren't of any quality (because, of course, italian clubs didn't do well in europe that year). but didn't roma then go onto win the scudetto, and liverpool then finish in what, 5th place ?????

HEY LOOK, sparta prague are (joint) top their CL group, so that must mean the CZECH REP league must be of the finest quality !! and there's nante top of their group, so the le championnat must be right behind them !

my oh my.

Trappitoni won the Uefa Cup (which no good team tries in, your words)

my words my words ??? where ???

Im not saying that fergi is better , Im saying that he is definantly the most consistantly successful manager of the 90's (modern day) and the proof is in the cabinet.. Again saying that the EPL is crap is not an arguement.......

i called trap the best modern day manager because HE IS STILL COACHING. which, for some reason, you were under the impression he was retired.

like i said in my previous post, I NEVER SAID THE EPL WAS CRAP. all you are doing is putting words in my mouth and going around in circles.

im finished with this so don't bother replying to anything because you'll only be talking to a brick wall.

ciao ciao :thumbsup:

Drummer

10-25-2001, 03:48 AM

yeh, trappitoni hasnt won anything yet as Italy coach. he still isnt the best manager of the 90's..

How can a league be called the best if it cant beat THE BEST in europe !!! We are talking about recent history you sap. What age are you 12 , 13 maybe.. you say that italian football is the best in the last 10 years, I say that it isnt the best over THE PAST 5 YEARS, (not few weeks, COMPRENDE?)..
Yeh , exactly Roma won the scudetto and Liverpool came 3rd in the EPL which suggests that the 3rd placed team in england can beat the 1st team of Italy.......
Sparta Prague havent done any good in the LAST 5 YEARS have they?? Even if theyu won it a few of their teams would have to do decent in th Euro cup for a few years to be classed as a good league. You just cant accept that your precious league doesnt have the same pezazz it used to (outside of Italian league fans).. Again if ANY OF THE BEST of ITALY cant beat THE BEST of europe then They are not THE BEST teams , therefore their league is not as hard to win as the better teams with several clubs doing well over even 2 years... My system of rating a leagues status may be faulty, but lat least there is Logic to it..........
TALK TO THE HAND CAUSE THE FACE DONT WANNA HEAR IT.........

FANTA

10-25-2001, 04:24 AM

keep up those 6th grade insults, i find them very amusing :smoking: :D

ItalianBoy

10-25-2001, 05:30 AM

First of all Roma Liverpool was a fixed game, why? well what about the ref that first points out at the Pk and than dosent give it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CHEATERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Roma should have won!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And plus did you see todays game!!!!!!!!! Real CHEATED as always! There was Zebina on the ground and the game should have STOPPED there, but no! your paid ref made the game go on and guess what!!!!!!!!!!! Your great Figo Zidane Raul coudlt go past the Roma defense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They had to BUY a Pk, kicked by the usual stop-let-the-keeper-move-than-kick FIGO!
Please, he cant even kick Pks right!
Zidane was NO WHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Roma should have won!!!!!!!!!!!
So Real couldt score against the Scudetto winners so yes, for what you are saying!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are still the best!!!!!!!!!
Jelousy is a bad thing Drummer!
And what about Juve!!!!!!!! 3-1!!!!!!!!!1
Lazio too won today, all they needed was a coach change!
And Barca, my fav ESP team, won cuz of a mistake of the Golie in the last game!!!
Depor beated 2 times in a row MANU!!!!!!!!!!!! The best of ENG HUH!!!!!!!!!! So please!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get real!
If you are jelous! its none of our problems! and Trapattoni! he is a great coach, and now coach of one, if the THE, best national!

Severus

10-25-2001, 07:20 AM

best manager of the 90's ... MARCELLO LIPPI !

in 3 years il MISTER won:

2 scudetti
1 champions league
1 european supercoppa
1 intercontinental cup

who dominated the world like this man did ? ferguson ? perhaps england but lippi had no boundaries ! lippi conquered europe then went on to beat south american champions river plate in japan. he also whooped sir alex and his manchester hoodlums a few times in the CL as well. one year he swept him.

as for the battle of the leagues, in 2 of sir alex's latest triumphs, he won 2 years ago by 18 points and last year by roughly the same margin. now i know we already covered that depth in a league is not the only characteristic of a great league but 20 points in consecutive years ?????? what in the hell is that all about ???? what fun is it watching a league when the champs are decided in december ? so what you're telling me is that the actual league is what ... a 5 tier league ??? man U, the CL teams, UEFA clubs, the shit clubs and the relegationees. WOW thats quality.

now, correct me if i am wrong, but are we discussing about the actual league, or what 2 to 3 clubs do in the ECL ?

as for this ...

Yeh , exactly Roma won the scudetto and Liverpool came 3rd in the EPL which suggests that the 3rd placed team in england can beat the 1st team of Italy.......

the ball is round, on any given day any team can beat anyone. what's your point ? milan finished 5th last season. are you gonna tell me that they can't beat manchester on any given day
:confused:

ItalianBoy

10-25-2001, 08:26 AM

Capello isnt bad too!
2 Scudetti, and others, and than also the Liga with real!
Lippi is awesome! Lets just hope he will bring the juve of before!
FORZA JUVENTUS!Hey Sev, I made this wallpaper. You can place it just right cliking on the pic and put set as walpaper.

Drummer

10-25-2001, 12:42 PM

"First of all Roma Liverpool was a fixed game, why? well what about the ref that first points out at the Pk and than dosent give it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CHEATERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Roma should have won!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"
Roma' s game was fixed???? So what about the rest of the Italians teams in Europe.. you see this is the problem some of you say that Roma didnt try against liverpool and others say that they were cheated.. This means that you can use whichever excuse is most appropriate whenever you want ....

"And plus did you see todays game!!!!!!!!! Real CHEATED as always! There was Zebina on the ground and the game should have STOPPED there, but no! your paid ref made the game go on and guess what!!!!!!!!!!! Your great Figo Zidane Raul coudlt go past the Roma defense"

And real Cheated!!! They beat Roma in Roma. Madrid are 6th from bottom in their league, so even on current form, Roma ( a top Serie A club) cannot beat a top spanish side not playing well. Again you Italian Serie A fans are using either the last 10 years or 'todays' results to whichever is mor favourable to your points. Make up your minds which it is...
"Jelousy is a bad thing Drummer! "
what am I jealous of. As far as Im concerned I dont care how good or bad the EPL is once united keep winning.. Again I havent said that its the best. I havent actually said any country is the best , but on recent history , ie last 5 years, I would think that Spain has the stronger league, because of their great strides in Europe and their league isnt that bad either....

"best manager of the 90's ... MARCELLO LIPPI !

in 3 years il MISTER won:

2 scudetti
1 champions league
1 european supercoppa
1 intercontinental cup "

So he is the great manager of the 90's because he won 5 trophies??? As opposed to
7 EPL
4 FA cups
1 League cup
ECWC
CL..
Yes I see your point!!!

He didnt whoop united in 1999 did they??? no they lost 3-2 at home didnt they. Keep talking about how 5+ years ago Italian teams did this and that etc....
Whats your point about wining a league by 18 points etc. The top 5 in England last year read
1 united- Lost to Bayern munich in the CL Quarter finals, the year before that lost to Madrid at same stage.. Notice nything ??? Since united won it in 1999 they have only been knocked out at the LATTER stages to the eventual winners...
2. Arsenal- got to the Quarter Finals of the CL
3. Liverpool - won the uefa cup beating Roma along the way.
4. Leeds - Beat Milan and lazio on their way to the CL semi finals.
5. Chelsea- Not a bad team with the likes of Petit, desailly and Hasslebaink in them ( point about having the best players)

Beyond that point are teams like sunderland and Ipswich which surprised alot by how well they did.. Just because there is 1 super team does not mean that the rest of the teams in the league are any good. last years exploits in the CL prove that England has several teams that can compete and beat the best of europe.....

At the moment look how close the EPL is, united are 4th. Does that mean that its the best league currently??? Im only using this point against the people who are talking about CURRENT FOOTBALL ie todays results etc.

What fun is there watching a league with supposed top teams like lazio that have seen a total of 6 goals (for and against) in the season so far. United have scored 26 and conceded 16 in 9 games. I suppose thats really boring, an average of just under 3 goals a game!!!

Heres a question " What have Italian clubs achieved in Europe in the last 5 years that makes them a league apart from everybody else???" If the answer is that the league has been exciting then what does that mean of the Italian league when Milan and Juve dominated it and europe?

Drummer

10-25-2001, 12:46 PM

Sorry uniteds average goals for and aginst is 4 goals a game!!! So you are (on average) going to see 4 goals a game in the EPL whether it be for or against , in Uniteds games.. Boring........

Drummer

10-25-2001, 01:08 PM

I dont mean to get personal (12 or 13 Etc), its just very hard to stay focused when people arent answering the same question over and over again. You are disecting the statement:
" Alex Fergeson is the greatest MODERN day manger". i have clearly indicated what I meant ( he HAS won more trophies than anybody in the 90's) and that Trappitoni was probobley the best manager in the 80's. Yet you still argue with flacid points----- Trappitoni's history ( only beyond 1990 doesnit apply to my statement and he didnt win that much in hte 90's did he!!)

"My other Statement said that Serie A is no longer the best league in the world.. "
NOT THE EPL IS THE BEST!!!!!
My theory is alot more solid then " Italian league is so close and exciting" especially when 1 of the top teams LAZIO has been involved in games having a whopping 6 goals in total of all these 7 games!!! Bologna have amassed that with a total of 7 goals in all their games!! The worst average goals conceded and scored against in the EPL is Aston Villa with 20!!!Average 2 goals in their games.. Who wants a close league with shag all goals? After all arent goals what make a game exciting? I havent seen as many great 0-0 draws as i have seen 2-2 or 3-3 etc ....

How long are you going to live off the past??? Italian football was great up to the mid 90's after which the standard has dropped ( proof= euro staus and results since 1996). There is no denying that...
The Germans havent done too bad (munich and Bayern) but cannot find the consistancy ( like Valencia and Real) to have 2 or more clubs in the LATTER stages, therefore I feel that that rules them out (because Spain have had more consistancy), but there leagues have been close enough .

Drummer

10-25-2001, 01:10 PM

Woops again I meant for bayern munich and Borussia Dortmund to be in the brackets not (munich and Bayren)..

ItalianBoy

10-25-2001, 05:54 PM

Please Drumboy I didnt say that Leverpool is bad I said that the ref pointed 2 times at the PK! and it should have been and than he dindt give it!!!!!!!!!!
And Real sukks!!!! they couldt go past the Roma defense, Everyone is talkign about the game DUDE!!!
Zebina was down and so the real players should have stopped!!!!!
But no!!!!! they neede the ref to call a pk, and worst of all Figo, stops and than goes !!!
I dont know if you are stupid or something but you cant do that!!!!!
And plus I wasent arguining about the first Roma real, there they won, always with a Pk!!!!! STILL!!!!!
ITA SERIE A is still the best!!! In europe we are doing great!!!! All of our teams Q!!!!!
Waiting for Lazio!
So what is your point! Spain Liga is good but cant copare yet to ITA, not only for the teams but for the players etc. EPL too!
MANU are one great team like Leverpool! they play good soccer, but REAL!!!! PLEASE!!!!!
And plus I dint say that Lippi is THE manager, if we really want to Herrera is the best!!!!!!!!
So if you aint jelous than how come you still insisting that the SERIE A is not the best when it is!!!!!!

JYT2001

10-25-2001, 06:56 PM

First of all can I just say that I don't have much time to post, so I will leave many of my replies to Drummer's ridiculous statements to another time. I do however just want to make 2 points.

First of all Bummer (Yes, I can miss-spell people's usernames too!!), you keep saying that you don't believe that the EPL is the best league (which is very true), but what is this about from the Spanish Leagues and NT - I enjoy Spanish football but....... that you posted??

'Spanish teams have undoubtadly been the best in europe over the last few years but that doesnt make their league the best. You have Real Madrid, Barcelona and more recently Deportivo and Valencia (maybe Celta also) so how does that make them the best league in the world??? Barca and Madrid are the only 'real' giants wheras england has United , Liverpool, Arsenal, Leeds, Chelsea , Everton, Tottenham among others that arent even in the top league. Im not a person to defend the english game but on this point I must declare England the winner.........'

????????????????????????????

Secondly, to compare this list of players:

Gianuligi Buffon
Lilian Thuram
Edgar Davids
Allessandro Del Piero
David Trezeguet
Marcelo Salas
Francesco Toldo
Javier Zanetti
Ronaldo
Christian Vieri
Paolo Maldini
Manuel Rui Costa
Andrei Shevchenko
Allessandro Nesta
Gaizka Mendieta
Hernan Jorge Crespo
Claudio Lopez
Francesco Totti
Vincenzo Montella
Gabriel Batistuta
Fabio Cannavaro
Roberto Baggio

(BTW forgot Pavel Nedved, chalk him up too)

with this list of players:

Thierry Henry
Patrick Viera
Juan Sebastian Veron
David Beckham
Ruud Van Nistlerooy
Alan Shearer
Roy Keane
Ryan Giggs
Michael Owen
Steven Gerrard
Harry Kewell
Lee Bowyer
Teddy Sheringham
Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink
Emmanuel Petit

is absolutely ludacris. The only players who are worth mentioning in this list are the ones I mentioned. If you honestly think the 2nd list is in anyway comparable to the 1st, then you are EVEN more stupid than I originally thought you were.

Drummer

10-25-2001, 09:23 PM

Bummer , very good Im sure your career in comedy is flourishing!!!

I have mentioned several times that I have been discussing recent history (5Years). You keep saying that the teams are doing well this year.. So a league is great at differant times of the year??? Where were the Italian teams last year when it counted?? I am only making that point because if you are going to make the point about how they are doing now then , you should clarify Italian footballs position in the LAST 5 YEARS. Its like talking to a bunch of children...

"ITA SERIE A is still the best!!! In europe we are doing great!!!! All of our teams Q!!!!! "
So what was Serie A last year when they didnt qualify, or rthe year before???? Bearing in mind that serie A has had 4 teams in the CL (EPL 3).
No comments on the goal averages?? NO? If you are going to split heais about how exciting a league is then so will i.

"talian league is so close and exciting" especially when 1 of the top teams LAZIO has been involved in games having a whopping 6 goals in total of all these 7 games!!! Bologna have amassed that with a total of 7 goals in all their games!! The worst average goals conceded and scored against in the EPL is Aston Villa with 20!!!Average 2 goals in their games.. Who wants a close league with shag all goals? After all arent goals what make a game exciting? I havent seen as many great 0-0 draws as i have seen 2-2 or 3-3 etc ....

Any comments???

Again if you didnt need me to translate what I have said in differant ways, I said that the players you have listed are (in your opinion) world class players. I will point out to you that Edgar Davids was done for drugs(not the sign of a World class player). He is a legend alright , but at what cost?? Keane doesnt take drugs. Remember he destroyed Zidane and davids in 1999 in midfield? He was probobley just lucky!!!

Your list is pointless.. How many of those players have won Europes most prestigous trophy in the last few years without using drugs(davids) in the Italian league????

Having great players doesnt mean a league is great. Look at Madrid and Barcalona Lazio, (inter ,AC) Milan. They have so many great players they cant find the right balance. Thats like me saying that the EPL has more teams that have been doing better in CL then Italy so its better..

I tell you what lets clear this up . Why is the Italian league the best?? Point forms.. What makes a league the best in the world???

ItalianBoy

10-26-2001, 12:15 AM

Lets leave this drummer alone, he just dosent want to accept the facts. Drum, I told you why the league is the best. If you want to watch it, fine if no WHO CARES! Still the fact stand still, SERIE A is still the best. No matter what you say, like or no. thats the truth!

Severus

10-26-2001, 05:55 AM

And real Cheated!!! They beat Roma in Roma. Madrid are 6th from bottom in their league, so even on current form, Roma ( a top Serie A club) cannot beat a top spanish side not playing well. Again you Italian Serie A fans are using either the last 10 years or 'todays' results to whichever is mor favourable to your points. Make up your minds which it is...

uhh HELLO ... is anyone there ??? this logic is incomprehensible especially when real madrid are undefeated in their first 5 games of the CL ... and that is where roma played them in right .... the ECL ???

So he is the great manager of the 90's because he won 5 trophies??? As opposed to
7 EPL
4 FA cups
1 League cup
ECWC
CL..

league cup ??? how many fukking cups do they have in england, one for every month of the season ??? how convenient. fine make it 6 --- i didn't think the italian supercup was worth noting but since you'd even include the worthington cup ...

lets do the math now shall we. despite alex needing a good 7 years to even get the ball rolling at manchester UTD in the 90's he won 14 cups in 10 years. what does that = out to ... 1.5 cups/year roughly. lippi won 6 in 3 years which would give him an average of 2 cups a year. sure ferguson won more, but only because he coached more. lippi however has the better percentage per year which means that he was on pace to win 20 trophies in 10 years which would've shattered ferguson's feat ... if given the opportunity of course. surely its hypothetical, but the arguement has been made.

as for chelsea not being a bad team ... sure. just goes to show you that once you become ineffective in serie A ... you can still be a success in england, in the alleged "better league".

Drummer

10-26-2001, 02:40 PM

Yeh the fact that Real are unbeatable in euroe and cant do well in their league suggest that the Spnaish league mustnt be that bad, eh???

yes Fergesun won 14 trophies in the 90's. Can you not understand that?? He won more trophies than anybody else in that decade..
Lippi's record stretched over 6 years, Fergeson over 10 years, can you grasp that??? FACT=Lippi fled Juve when they were sinking .. Oh he would of left them if they were on the top of their game (bollox). He knew what was happening and instead of trying to KEEP THEM AT THE TOP he moved on.. Apparantly some Italian official or manager in the 90's made a compaint to the Italian FA about the mysterious increase in the muscles and size of the Juve players when the were at their peak!!! Hmmmm and davids got done for drugs ??? I suppose its just a coincidence...

Who became ineffective in Serie A for chelsea thats worth mentioning ??? Maybe they wanted to have a hope of winning a Euro tournament and knew that on current form they wouldnt win it in Italy!!!!!!!!

Pedro

10-26-2001, 06:48 PM

This is getting boring. And your spelling is atrocious. ;)

We're all biased - enjoy it.

Let there be peace and more interesting discourse. - AS LONG AS YOU ADMIT PORTUGAL IS BEST!

Pedro

Drummer

10-26-2001, 07:00 PM

Hey Pedro , most footballers cant spell their name, let alone write a letter! I dont really care that I cant spell, at least i can make clear points and can understand points made (I dont have to be told several times the same point)

I know you havent been involved in the arguements. But I agree that the portugal team is in the top 3 international teams in europe currently....

Severus

10-26-2001, 07:37 PM

Yeh the fact that Real are unbeatable in euroe and cant do well in their league suggest that the Spnaish league mustnt be that bad, eh???

no. it would suggest to an ignorant fan that the primera liga is tougher than the ECL but this is clearly not the case. furthermore, the reason for their struggles in the primera liga is a little deeper than the quality of the league. it has to do more with the team chemistry because of zinedine zidane. he can't seem to gel with the club which is resulting in mediocre play from real madrid whenever he plays. and if you look, its carrying onto the ECL because roma should've beaten madrid at the bernabeu. they outplayed them entirely in zidane's first match of the ECL campaign. coincidence ? not.

Severus

10-26-2001, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by Drummer
Yeh the fact that Real are unbeatable in euroe and cant do well in their league suggest that the Spnaish league mustnt be that bad, eh???

yes Fergesun won 14 trophies in the 90's. Can you not understand that?? He won more trophies than anybody else in that decade..
Lippi's record stretched over 6 years, Fergeson over 10 years, can you grasp that??? FACT=Lippi fled Juve when they were sinking .. Oh he would of left them if they were on the top of their game (bollox). He knew what was happening and instead of trying to KEEP THEM AT THE TOP he moved on.. Apparantly some Italian official or manager in the 90's made a compaint to the Italian FA about the mysterious increase in the muscles and size of the Juve players when the were at their peak!!! Hmmmm and davids got done for drugs ??? I suppose its just a coincidence...

Who became ineffective in Serie A for chelsea thats worth mentioning ??? Maybe they wanted to have a hope of winning a Euro tournament and knew that on current form they wouldnt win it in Italy!!!!!!!!

firstly, IMO lippi was the manager of the 90's but i don't disagree with your choice. it's just a matter of opinion.

secondly, lippi resigned because it was either resign or be terminated. he didn't have a choice.

thirdly, it's not a coincidence, its a farce because if you knew anything about nandrolone, you'd know that 1) the body naturally produces it and 2) scientists don't know how much the body naturally produces of the nandrolone so how could they be guilty when there is no concrete evidence claiming that they are ???

and lastly, zola, de sailly and di matteo are 3 who became ineffective in italy but miraculously moved onto greener pastures in england. i wonder how well shearer, adams and mcallister would do in serie A NOW or 2 years ago. they'd be laughed off the field as was that other english striker who played for juventus in the 80's which i can't remember his name, surprisingly because there's only been a few brits in italy.

Drummer

10-26-2001, 09:24 PM

Zola cant get his game every week. Di matteo is long gone and desailly is still class. He still plays for the Euro and world champions. They still helped Chelsea edge passed Lazio a couple of seasons ago in theCL...
Mcallister helped liverpool beat Roma last year, Alan Shearer plays for Newcastle , not what I consider to be a top team (even serie A has poor teams). Adams cant get fit enough to get a game, hes not that bad . english teams are better going forward then defending. Im sure some of the top teams in Italy have players that shouldnt be there or wouldnt get onto other top teams. i mean Phillipo Inzaghi is absolutly crap, how does he get his game for any top team???

By the way i am going round in circles because comments like

" don't understand you, you're claiming that EPL is better than serie A because 3 of your teams made the quarters ?"
I never said that the EPL is the best , in fact I have posted several times that it isnt, and that Im just saying that I dont think that the Serie A is the best..... And no evidence you have put forward has changed my way of thinking.....

Drummer

10-26-2001, 09:28 PM

I respect your views, but I dont have to agree with them.. I have always said that I THINK etc , you have claimed it to be true(best league) and all I have done is asked for proof and why you THINK so.. Im not looking for an arguement , just discussion. IT might of gotten heated , but hell , that happens, so lets just leave it at that , You Know that the Serie A is the best and I know it isnt...
Isnt football great !!!!!!!!!!!:)

Severus

10-26-2001, 11:56 PM

indeed it is. serie A that is :D

Pedro

10-27-2001, 12:00 AM

Severus, puhleeeez.

Roma should have beaten REAL during their most recent game that Zidane played in? C'mon, did we see the same game? All kidding aside, please tell me how you figured that? The first half was almost entirely played in the ROMA end, in the second half, yes, Roma did look more organized but they were still dominated. How many near misses did REAL have? At least 6 or 7. Roma? I see you are in Toronto, so am I, so you must have seen the game on TSN. Did you TOTALLY disagree with the announcers who said over and over that REAL was in charge? Like I said on another post, I disagreed with the penalty call that let REAL equalize, Cafu was not guilty of a handball IMHO, but that did not reflect on what the score should have been.

I just mailed a tape of the game to a friend in the States, maybe I should have made a copy for you??

Severus

10-27-2001, 12:07 AM

fine, outplayed them was a little of an exaggeration, but they still needed that horrible call by the official to obtain a point.

Pedro

10-27-2001, 02:04 PM

Agreed, it was a terrible call. I wanted REAL to win, but not like that.

ItalianBoy

10-27-2001, 11:42 PM

Guys leave Drummer alone. He says he dosent care to say which one is the best cuz to him there is no best. Just cant get the fact. This guys as issues, cant stand the fact the 1) there is a best championship, and
2) its the italian serie A.
I tried to explain it to him llike you would to a kid but it was worthless, I got only answers that had no logic and where pretty duymb, like " best players dont make a good champiosnhip" or " good teams dont make a c good" and the list goes on.

Drummer

10-28-2001, 05:11 PM

i didnt say that there isnt a best championship. My english is a little rusty obviously. I said that to say the Serie a is the best is not just without Proof. Your proof + exciting close league and it has loads of great players (you think) and great teams . These great teams that cant beat anybody outside Italy (Last few years, excluding this Cl, its not over yet). This means that the quality in your precious league is similar among the teams but average among european elite..
You are the child who's poor ickle league is being said to be bad! Boo Hoo. I said I dont care which league is the best , But its not the Italian league. You just cant read , I will try to keep my messages smaller and use less letters in words so you can keep up in future. Oh whats that, you already cant understand what Im talkng about, dont worry son, maybe in a few years when you grow teeth youe will be able to read this out to yourself and it will sound clearer!!!!!!!!!!

Again I said that the serie A isnt the best and I dont care if the EPL isnt the best (once United win it). Where in that sentance does it say that no league is the best??? I have written before that on current status I think (personally) that the Spanish league is superior to most (def Serie A). What? I didnt say there was a best league , well kick me over and sprinkle me with your brain juice, what there isnt any , dont worry Im sure everybody else has just learned to accept it!!!!!! :cry: