Turban in Turkey

[SiN]

To those aware of the recent debates and tensions in Turkish politics, i'd appreciate your views.

To those not aware of the situation, Turkey is a very secular country and recently the ruling (pro-islamic) party has been trying to change the constitution to allow students to wear the headscarf in universities.

I am strongly AGAINST the change. Any change to the constitution cannot be tolerated. There is no excuse for even the slightest change. People give the arguement of human rights, freedom etc. and show the UK as a democratic society as an example of allowing freedom of clothing. However i feel that rather than a step towards modernity, the removal of the ban will be a backwards step towards a fundamentalist islamic state which will eventually lead to sharia law. Think about all the work that the great Ataturk has done to advance Turkey as a modern european country, now all of that hard work is for nothing, this new government is slowly brainwashing our people and soon we are going to be like IRAN. I am absoultley outraged that our turkish people can sit back and watch such a thing going on, i am deeply sadened to see that no one really cares about Ataturk and his efforts. Also a quick note: i watched a movie and in that movie they had a scene in Istanbul, all they showed was women walking around in full lengthed islamic clothing and shitty little old cars and building which were falling down, this is what the Western World things of Turkey, they think of us as a Islamic State.

Id like to give an analogy for people to think about.

Aysha has been fighting all her educational life to practise her religious beliefs freely at university. eventually Turkey has removed the ban. the headscarf is now free to be worn at all places including places of work and education. Aysha is now a very succesful student and after years of hard work she becomes a qualified doctor. Aysha decides because of her religious beliefs she will only treat muslim patients. again because of her strong beliefs she refuses to treat males as she argues it is against her religion to be in close proximity to men.

Is this the way forward? I think not

[el Turco]

First of all, let me say this for people who will post on this thread. Be respectful to other people's opinions, dont insult them. Take Sinan's post as example to express your opinion in a good manner.

I disagree with Sinan. This ban has been an embarrassment for our country for years. Girls that are lucky enough to have enough financial support had to leave their country and families behind to go to universities in other countries, while unlucky ones could not get educated, even if they were some of the brightest ones in the country, because of what they wore. You know how you say it's gonna change how people think of Turkey. Yes it will in a positive way, because in no other place in the world that I know of, there is this kind of ban. This was against human rights. It's like saying you cant go to university because you are a male and have long hair, earrings, and tattoos. Now how stupid would that be? Plus, does being modern restrict people from going to university because of what they wear? No, let people receive their education, and choose whatever they want.

About Ayse example... Would you rather see her become a doctor then make a decision about it, or would you just restrict her education rights from beginning without giving her a chance, so she can sit home whole day doing nothing?

One more thing, our corrupted media has done a very poor job in this issue, especially Kanal D. They almost want to see a fight break out between two sides.

[Fenerliyim]

first of all the turkish constitution gets changed like ever year, the turban law wasnt even in there till 97.

IMO this is the right thing. Its called freedom of religion. I mean we want to join the EU and no where in the EU is there a headscarf ban. I mean the closest there is to a headscarf ban is in France, and thats only in elementary, middle, and high schools. You want to be democratic, yet u try to suppress other people's freedoms. Does a women wearing a headscarf all of a sudden become non-human. What makes them less than u?

And i dont get where this fear of turkey becoming iran comes from. Do u honestly believe the military would even allow that to even happen, or just cross someones mind. I mean we are talking about a military who has done a coup 3 times in the past 40 years.

Let me give u an example. I just watch hitman like a couple weeks ago, great movie, theres like a nice 10-15 minute part where they are Istanbul, and in no way did i see them protray turkey the way u described it. They showed a lot of great places.

Anyway, SiN when's the last time u've been to turkey, most people do have old cars and many parts of different towns do look like they are about to crumble into pieces. The average GDP in Turkey is wat 10,000 dollars or so. Thats the same amount of money my college costs per year. And people in turkey have to live with that.

Lemme give u an analogy, ayse has a dream to become a doctor, to help other people, to be able to give herself and her parents a better life, but because some people are afraid of shariat she is not able to get a college education, and therefor her future dims, and she works at like a bakkal making barely any money. And her mother gets cancer and she needs to get a surgery, but ayse doesnt have the money so her mother dies, then her father etc... But if she had the right to get a further education she might have been able to save her parents and who knows who else.

And second if ur a doctor and a patient needs ur help, u cant discriminate, that has nothing to do with islam.

[nb-legenda]

dang you guys are really smart... no way American football players are this smart like soccer players! :lol:

[el Turco]

Great post Omer. :thumbsup:

[SiN]

Turban is just not the headscarf, it also includes the full length gown that can be worn by muslim women. You know, the long black gown which makes the person look like a ghost hovering around everywhere? I watch alot of Turkish Tv and there are parts of Turkey which have these ladies everywhere, but i agree, turkey is 50/50 when it comes to this issue.

But think about this,

[Fenerliyim]

turkcede turban basortusu demek.

senin dedigin seyin turkcesi burka yada çarşaf

[Cihangir]

I get a lot of harsh treatment after expressing myself among my friends in my uni but their fundamental problem, i think, is that they can not seem to differ the wrongly called Turban (it's "tesettür" for god's sake) as a freedom and a political symbol.
Yes, even tho i swore on the holy pavements of Istanbul that i would kill that "dönek" guy who happens to be our prime minister, i am pro-tesettür or türban in the sense of "freedom". It should be free, i've been thinking this way since day 1 of university, after seeing how these girls change their tesettürs with wigs or hats or just take em off in a sick ass cabin. It reminded me of how Afro-Americans were treated back then. This is my personal wish. A very pure one. HOWEVER we all know that "turban has never been just turban in Turkey". In essance, it should be free but on the political level where "turban" is being handled as a political symbol (even tho it is being denied) i hesitate. As much as i'm for freedom i also am against this being carried out by AKP. I mean these guys back then were the ones who guarded the idea of "turban" being a political symbol, a symbol of their cause and their pasts are known, at least by the ones who have a memory of at least 10 years. Plus this is already being a very corruptive issue and as a unitarian party, AKP should refrain from it immidiately.
In my semi utopian idea, i think it should be free in schools but not in public service.

[Cihangir]

Sin&Fenerliyim: Turban is the name of what mostly Pakistani men wear on their heads kinda similar to Ottoman "kavuk". The right term for us must be "tesettür" because this differs in many countries and it's almost a fashion item in Turkey and also a research for tesettür was done recently by a Turkish scholar and it appears to be a "version" originated in Lebanon. according to the research it first appeared in refuge camps around 70s and 80s, where women had to hide their hair and parts of their face such as the forehead in order not to be identified easily which is in favor of the idea of "tesettür" being a political symbol.

[Fenerliyim]

mhp has also supported it

[Cihangir]

MHP is an extremist party, DTP is likewise and AKP is just a band of dönek American servants.
And look at the country's situation now. See my point?

Bunlara mı kaldık? Bunları da mı görecektik?

[cartel]

My short answer to the Turban debate in Turkey:

Everybody should be free about decision-making to wear a Turban or not at University.

[Turkish Delight]

Interesting topic, i think freedom is a must but as others have said, the Bas ortu seems to be a political tool dividing secular and religious people. I havent read the Kuran - Is the bas ortu compulsary?? Without knowing much (if any) about the religious aspect, i could imagine that the bas ortu and carsaf were used to protect against sand storms etc. I dont buy the argument that it is used as respect or to stop rape etc. If God intended us to be covered he would of made men cover up as well (or be born that way :lol:). I also believe that alcohol and gambling was banned as people who drank/gambled back in the day behaved badly after/during it so it was a simple matter of if people cant control themselves, forbid it.

I go on the simple yet effective statement, everything in moderation, too much of anything is not good (i think air is the only exception to this :)).

[Fenerliyim]

MHP is an extremist party, DTP is likewise and AKP is just a band of dönek American servants.
And look at the country's situation now. See my point?

Bunlara mı kaldık? Bunları da mı görecektik?

dtp is just pkk in the political world, serefsizler

[SiN]

Mhp are like the Nazi's of Turkey

Dtp = Pkk

Akp = american ass kissers and pro ottoman empirial regime

which ever way you look at it, all the major parties in turkey are ***ked up.

-----

First it will be turban, then it will be other things that will come into affect. Cant you see??

[Mavi]

For gods sake stop calling it a Turban, thats what Seihks wear in India! its called a veil.

I support freedom of religion, lots of women are deprived of education because of it. I think only France has this kind of ban.

[Fenerliyim]

france has the ban in primary and secondary schools, not college.

Turkey and France are a lot alike. When Turkey was first in the proccess of creating a constitution they just pretty much copy pasted the French Constitution and renamed it.

Thats y where in the UK and USA, citizen rights come before secularism, in France and Turkey secularism comes before citizen rights

[Mavi]

i thought turkeys constitution was modeled after the Swiss?

[SiN]

it is called turban in turkey thats what everyone is calling it.

the turban law is just a trap, you watch and see, turkeys future is ***ked now, but i hope ataturks laws are strong enough to resist this.

[el Turco]

it is called turban in turkey thats what everyone is calling it.


and it's wrong. It shouldnt be called turban. Basortusu or tesettur would be nicer ways to describe it.

[SiN]

why do these people say they are muslim first and turkish second?

[Turkish Delight]

why do these people say they are muslim first and turkish second?

Because some people are not the most educated and thoroughly brain washed :sad:. Just to give u an example, there is a turkish guy i know who used to go clubbing drinking etc and then discovered religion. He now is a fully practising guy and has learnt arabic and now even teaches arabic to young kids, basically there is not much turkish left of him.

[el Turco]

Because some people are not the most educated and thoroughly brain washed :sad:. Just to give u an example, there is a turkish guy i know who used to go clubbing drinking etc and then discovered religion. He now is a fully practising guy and has learnt arabic and now even teaches arabic to young kids, basically there is not much turkish left of him.

Why is there not much Turkish left of him. I've learned Spanish, am I not Turkish now? And you are definitely not Turkish because you speak English??? Or hold on let me guess, going to clubs and drinking alcohol as much as you can makes you Turkish??? WTF is wrong with discovering and fully practicing religion???

Im sorry, but YOUR post was extremely uneducated...

[Almir11]

ok sin your saying they should not allow them some women want to wer it so i really think u should stop with ll this shit

[el Turco]

why do these people say they are muslim first and turkish second?

This has nothing to with headscarf ban.

Some people say they're Fenerli/Cimbomlu/Besiktasli first, and Turkish second, should we ban sports altogether?

[Turkish Delight]

Why is there not much Turkish left of him. I've learned Spanish, am I not Turkish now? And you are definitely not Turkish because you speak English??? Or hold on let me guess, going to clubs and drinking alcohol as much as you can makes you Turkish??? WTF is wrong with discovering and fully practicing religion???

Im sorry, but YOUR post was extremely uneducated...
I think you mis-understood my post.
What i am saying is he is not proud of being a Turk anymore, he seems ashamed of his origin and now prefers to be an arab than a Turk. There is nothing wrong with becoming a fully practicing muslim. Also i am an Australian Turkish Cypriot which means i was born in Australia but my blood is Turkish. I will never forget my origin. In Australia i am not an Aussie and in Turkey/Cyprus i am not considered a Turk.

Here is a question, is the Basortu compulsary in islam ??? Why dont men have to wear one??

[SiN]

Exactly my point Turkish Delight, im glad someone with an open-mind has joined me. Its ridicolous, all of a sudden we have turned from being so close to having a European Status in Turkey to now where most of the cities are populated with people who are just completley bribed and brainwashed by this new government and its relegious fanatacism.

SINCE WHEN HAS RELEGION BEEN A PART OF POLITICS?

Ataturk put in place these laws to stop Turkey becoming a arabic style country, for Turkey to advance in diplomacy and also to have a place amongst higher society, but there is so much evidence that this new government is as corrupt as ever. All the multi million business are controlled by them. All the gas, oil, electricity grids are in there control. They went from village to village, handing out bribes such as money, food, gold to win votes. These people have alot of money because they all work for a common cause. They are going to ***k our country up. No wonder the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer in turkey. There is no middle man in between.

Ok yes allow women to dress like what they want in universities i agree, i give you that support, but is it right to have all women dress like this around turkey when we are trying to get into the european union, or trying to let people around the world know that we are a multi relegion tolerating people, that we accept all forms of relegion and that we are kind, considerate and helpful people. not a bunch of arabs or islamic nut-jobs like most of the world considers us. have you ever thought why Americas government loves us so much? have u ever thought why no one ***ks with us? we are important to the world but no ones wants to beleive it. We are the passage between Asia, Europe and the middle east.

[Cihangir]

i thought turkeys constitution was modeled after the Swiss?

Lol That changed over like a 100 times. :) I want back the 62' constitution.

[Cihangir]

Since when tesettür became a political icon?
Well the answer is simple. After the last military coup aided by outside forces. Tesettür ban is pretty new in Turkish history. Women with tesettür were not banned from universities before but it became an uncontrolled force during the "reigns" of Refah, Saadet and not Ak partys.