Suicide Bombers

[SiN]

This issue has been in my head for quite some years now, why in the world would you strap explosives onto your body and go and blow yourself up? Killing innocent people and causing death, destruction, choas, sadness, anger and revenge? Are these people so stupid? Or are they brainwashed by these ridicoulous cults? I cant beleive someone would have the balls to do that. They are obviously pumped with so much drugs, they dont know what they are doing and why they are doing it. It just sickens me. Imagine being there and surviving that. You would see body parts everywhere and everything.

Now i know alot of you people would say, because its the only way people can get back at other people in some countries. By doing that, you can kill alot of people at one time etc etc. But there are such things as diplomacy and talks and bloody governments and politics to sort all these things out. Corrupt or not, nobody needs to die like this.

Its time for America to step out of warn torn regions and back to where they came from. President Bush and his country have not done SHIT about the "War On Terror", they have just caused more death and carnage, instead of fixing things like they said they would. Enough is enough. This is why such things happen, because islamic extremists cannot fight back with anything else, they are all crazy.

This is just my view, dont hate me for it. If you want to talk about this issue and etc, ill be happy to talk.

[ulster21]

Suicide bombers in cities are not very tactical....instead of blowing yourself up on a bus, obviously a one time thing, you could put a bomb on a bus then blow it up remotely then do it again and again thus causing more destruction

[Bosnian Unit]

Meybe you or me can not understand that becouse we never experienced something as they did.

They didnt destory your house, killed half of your family....you dont live in a refuge camp without water and food etc...They didnt kill your 5 year old sister or brother while she/he was playing outside....

And most of all you have some kind of HOPE IN LIFE UNLIKE THEM.....They where born in that chaos, they are living in it all their life....they have NOTHING TO LOSE, WHEN THEY ALLREADY LOST EVERYTHING.

I was living in war time but its wasent something like they are living in.

Here mostly im talking about Palestinians...

And if their people support Hamas, if they support that kind of liberation then i will not have nothing against that. Its their choice !

About these in Iraq and all over the world well, that was happening before when Japanese KAMIKAZE where doing the same thing with airplanes etc..

They stoped, and these will stop when the time is right......meybe then Mexicans or Mongolians will do the same becouse US will try to force them out, or Chinese will try to steal some of that land in Mongolia becouse of their population problem...you never know !

That is the same phenomenon as one person choose to kill himself, becouse of whatever reason......or some teenager in USA going into the mall and shoot many people as they can knowing either they will kill themselfs of police/security will kill them.


http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b38/laluchasigue999/jenin-30octobre2004-1-3.jpg
This brave kid obvioulsy likes football, but does he has hope in his life when probably all his life will be like this in total destruction, poverty and seeing his people being killed eveyday ? To understand all this i think you need to be one of them, feel their pain and live like they do.

[el Turco]

Most of them are given drugs, so they do what they are ordered to do.

[Saraj Fanático]

Honestly this isn't about extremist or moderate, Al Qaeda or Mujahideen, Muslim or Non-Muslim. Its about life experience. Anyone can be the next suicide bomber. Every suicide bomber had a dark reason for their actions. We have not lived their life, anyone can be driven to insanity. Hell what makes us so sure we would keep up with the terror they (Palestinians, Chechens, Iraqis, etc) feel everyday? How do we know we wouldn't be driven to that point? I lived through nearly 2 years of war and some things I don't want to remember such as seeing my city burn and being a poor refugee in Germany. Now imagine living that every single day as the world watches and lets it be? Judging is easy when your living a safe and free life.

[el Turco]

Those are good points, but that still doesnt give you a right to kill many innocent people.

[Saraj Fanático]

I have been often criticized and hated for saying what I will say next but here it is. Suicide bombing is indeed a terrible action and make no mistake about it that its forbidden in Islam (2:195, 4:29 & 4:30). However I just want to quickly shift this issue not related to religion or belief and look at the Israeli/Palestinian conflict for a moment. Many people call Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other movements terrorists for their partake in suicide bombings, they are to be considered monsters of society and completly excluded. Those who knew them and worked with them, or work in such movements period, have relatives whose houses are soon bulldozed to the ground because of it and those same relatives will most likely end up dead. But here is something interesting about this. The Israeli law makes Military service for every man and woman MANDATORY. So all those in Israel are destined to join in and help the occupation. I am not saying fiction here but every child, woman, and man killed in such attacks was DESTINED to eventually put on a uniform and march down to occupied land. Everyone of them!

A source of Israels Mandatory law on Military service.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service#Israel

Now, Hamas ends up killing those 'To-be soldiers' and they are condemned. But when the IDF drops pounds of explosives on Hamas leaders and members its alright, its all a part of war, kill the enemy which drives the opposite side. So looking at it from another angle those suicide bombers are doing the same exact thing. Again, hate it or love it this is all fact, not fiction. Suicide bombing is a barbaric action and shouldn't be even considered in fact but those killed are as innocent as the ones killed in Air Craft attacks on the other side of the wall.

[ZabbaZibba]

Suicide bombing is indeed a terrible action and make no mistake about it that its forbidden in Islam (2:195, 4:29 & 4:30). However I just want to quickly shift this issue not related to religion.

If I remember correctly...this is Haram...things you DONT do.Suicide/Shurk(spelling) are unforgivable sins...but media likes ratings so they say it's of their religion...not true

[Saraj Fanático]

^ Yeah the media is feeding the viewers whatever they want them to believe. But at times like these you kinda have to sit down and think about it individually. I feel like Guy Montag in Ray Bradbury's satire, Fahrenheit 451. :lol: People should really read that book and understand its meaning.

[poutismalakas]

Now, Hamas ends up killing those 'To-be soldiers' and they are condemned. But when the IDF drops pounds of explosives on Hamas leaders and members its alright, its all a part of war, kill the enemy which drives the opposite side. So looking at it from another angle those suicide bombers are doing the same exact thing. Again, hate it or love it this is all fact, not fiction. Suicide bombing is a barbaric action and shouldn't be even considered in fact but those killed are as innocent as the ones killed in Air Craft attacks on the other side of the wall.

The differnece is that those targets where not active military targets! Those hamas leaders are active military targets!

[el Turco]

I have been often criticized and hated for saying what I will say next but here it is. Suicide bombing is indeed a terrible action and make no mistake about it that its forbidden in Islam (2:195, 4:29 & 4:30). However I just want to quickly shift this issue not related to religion or belief and look at the Israeli/Palestinian conflict for a moment.

Since Hamas and other suicide bombers use religion as their reason to attack, I think this should be evaluated by looking at our religion.

In Qur'an Allah forbids any kind of killing innocents, only permission is to attack if they attack you, for self-defense. Now they(Palestinians) can say, "they're attacking us, so we should attack back", but killing innocent people is not allowed in Islam. If they want to save their country and get their revenge, they should form their own army and fight back against the army of Israel.

And these people consider themselves very religious, and they think they have a lot of Islamic knowledge. Then why dont they look at the first years of Islam when first followers of Islam were tortured, killed, and highly discriminated by Mecca nonbelievers(much worse than today's Palestine). Did our prophet ordered his followers to go back and hurt innocent Meccans. No, they moved away to Medina, formed an army, and fought against the Mecca Army.

It says in the Qur'an, killing one innocent person is like killing the whole humanhood. Also, committing suicide is unforgivable, as Academico said. Plus, you misrepresent Islam, make it look like a violent religion. That, to me is a huge responsibility to have in the day of Judgement.

Let me expand my first post. Groups like Hamas use how they are mistreated to get new, young members to their organization. Once they join, they brainwash them, and give them drugs so they obey whatever they say. This answer's Sinan's question. How could someone blow himself up? When you are that high, obviously you cant think.

But, before blaming Palestinians for their acts, in my opinions Israel should be blamed first for their acts. This is another topic that could be discussed in a different thread.

:)

[Saraj Fanático]

The differnece is that those targets where not active military targets! Those hamas leaders are active military targets!

Okay so why bulldoze the houses of Hamas relatives? They aren't active targets as well. And believe me, for some they rather be dead then live without a home in Gaza of all places. As it is written in the Quran 'Persecution is worse than slaughter' Surah 2:191. And how does Israel know who is and who isn't an active target? They bombard vehicles of Hamas members! Now tell me, why? They weren't firing rockets out of the vehicle thats for sure. Oh thats right, because they will be firing the rockets tomorrow! So why does Hamas get condemned for killing the ones that will be bringing hardship to them tomorrow, or next month? Or a couple of years? :) Again, same thing, there is no if's or but's here. The only difference is CNN, MSN, FOX, and all those other crap media's are right there always serving Israel.

[Pape]

Isn't it like 70 some virgins once you die?? Helloo...!!!!

But no, what man built man will destroy :p

[SiN]

Who the hell would want 70 virgins anyway? They would have no experience what-so-ever :lol:

[poutismalakas]

Okay so why bulldoze the houses of Hamas relatives? They aren't active targets as well. And believe me, for some they rather be dead then live without a home in Gaza of all places. As it is written in the Quran 'Persecution is worse than slaughter' Surah 2:191. And how does Israel know who is and who isn't an active target? They bombard vehicles of Hamas members! Now tell me, why? They weren't firing rockets out of the vehicle thats for sure. Oh thats right, because they will be firing the rockets tomorrow! So why does Hamas get condemned for killing the ones that will be bringing hardship to them tomorrow, or next month? Or a couple of years? :) Again, same thing, there is no if's or but's here. The only difference is CNN, MSN, FOX, and all those other crap media's are right there always serving Israel.


Actual CNN has become anti-Israeli. I disagree with the Bulldozing of homes BUT recently they have been doing the to the settlers. Either way kill people in cafe, bus, shopping malls can't be justified UNLESS those people are armed active combatants ie cowardly militants that use religous houses to hide and fight from!

[Saraj Fanático]

Since Hamas and other suicide bombers use religion as their reason to attack, I think this should be evaluated by looking at our religion.

In Qur'an Allah forbids any kind of killing innocents, only permission is to attack if they attack you, for self-defense. Now they(Palestinians) can say, "they're attacking us, so we should attack back", but killing innocent people is not allowed in Islam. If they want to save their country and get their revenge, they should form their own army and fight back against the army of Israel.

And I am fully aware of that and I already provided some citations to verses which clearly state that suicide is forbidden. I am against Suicide bombings here. Hell I am against war period. But I am saying that this should be looked upon from a different perspective. And very few people do that.

And these people consider themselves very religious, and they think they have a lot of Islamic knowledge. Then why dont they look at the first years of Islam when first followers of Islam were tortured, killed, and highly discriminated by Mecca nonbelievers(much worse than today's Palestine). Did our prophet ordered his followers to go back and hurt innocent Meccans. No, they moved away to Medina, formed an army, and fought against the Mecca Army.

It says in the Qur'an, killing one innocent person is like killing the whole humanhood. Also, committing suicide is unforgivable, as Academico said. Plus, you misrepresent Islam, make it look like a violent religion. That, to me is a huge responsibility to have in the day of Judgement.


Let me expand my first post. Groups like Hamas use how they are mistreated to get new, young members to their organization. Once they join, they brainwash them, and give them drugs so they obey whatever they say. This answer's Sinan's question. How could someone blow himself up? When you are that high, obviously you cant think.

I think that they have nothing to live for or believe in. So they believe in a better afterlife and are driven to extreme heights and use the Quran to somehow justify suicide. I do not think that its under the influence of drugs that Hamas and Islamic Jihad gets teenagers to blow each other up. There have always been in the Quran certain quotes which can be very easily misinterpreted into something more then it is. Such as the following quote from 5.45

"And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust."

The quote can be used to respond in eye for an eye tactics meaning equal retaliation. However some certain individuals take it and change it into this call of slaughter. Which is rather wrong. That is what so many Muslims need to come to terms with, they have to learn how to understand the Quran first, before going about what is and isn't Islamic.

[Saraj Fanático]

Actual CNN has become anti-Israeli. I disagree with the Bulldozing of homes BUT recently they have been doing the to the settlers. Either way kill people in cafe, bus, shopping malls can't be justified UNLESS those people are armed active combatants ie cowardly militants that use religous houses to hide and fight from!

There are countless settlements in the territory agreed to be possibly handed over to the future Palestinian state (That being Eastern Jerusalem) and they keep building them. I am not saying it can be justified, I am not saying that what Hamas and those other movements have done is correct, its wrong, its a unforgivable sin, but I am simply saying that Israeli actions are the same exact thing as theirs. Most of the time, even worse. Israel must halt the assassination of Hamas members if we are on the same page with this.

[poutismalakas]

There are countless settlements in the territory agreed to be possibly handed over to the future Palestinian state (That being Eastern Jerusalem) and they keep building them. I am not saying it can be justified, I am not saying that what Hamas and those other movements have done is correct, its wrong, its a unforgivable sin, but I am simply saying that Israeli actions are the same exact thing as theirs. Most of the time, even worse. Israel must halt the assassination of Hamas members if we are on the same page with this.

Honestly I agree with you for the most part except that I believe in killing the head of the snake! Kill the head and the body dies! I think Israel should STOP building settlments and bulldozing homes!

[Saraj Fanático]

Isn't it like 70 some virgins once you die?? Helloo...!!!!

But no, what man built man will destroy :p

No virgins according to the Quran.

The numerical value of 70 is derived from a Quranic commentary by Ibn kathir (An Islamic scholar).

The story of the 72 virgins is quite confusing. The Quran translation done by certain scholars was misinterpreted using wrong words or definition. It is stated that a Martyr going to heaven will get "hur" and the word was taken by early commentators to mean “virgins,” But in Aramaic, hur meant “white” and was commonly used to mean “white grapes.”

People have to realize this. There is no such thing as 72 virgins in the afterlife.

[poutismalakas]

No virgins according to the Quran.

The numerical value of 70 is derived from a Quranic commentary by Ibn kathir (An Islamic scholar).

The story of the 72 virgins is quite confusing. The Quran translation done by certain scholars was misinterpreted using wrong words or definition. It is stated that a Martyr going to heaven will get "hur" and the word was taken by early commentators to mean “virgins,” But in Aramaic, hur meant “white” and was commonly used to mean “white grapes.”

People have to realize this. There is no such thing as 72 virgins in the afterlife.

I remember reading about and aughing my ass off! Just imagine some POOR brainwashed moron blows himself and all he gets for his troubles.... is a hand full of grapes!!!!

[Saraj Fanático]

^ Not even grapes, he will not be going to heaven at all. I think Islam has been in danger of being Hijacked not by fundamentalists and extremists but those who we turn to to learn. Everyone has so many of these ridiculous theories.

[ZabbaZibba]

why do I keeep hearing MUSLIM in the same sentence with bombs/terror/suicide?...
Muslim= to Submitt to the creator...unbreakable faith..always spiritualy strong...knowing without God...nothing is possible.
Suicide Terrorist=a looser...to give up hope...WEAK...a rebel without a clue
Both contridict each other meaning it's imposible to b both...+ the media will only focus in the middle east....why?....because we like to look at others & point fingers without looking at ourselves...there are terrorist all over the world today...they feed on the inocent...& love to see you die (spiritually) you may look at them as normal people...they come in different forms/sizes...look outside your window one day & think about what is a terrorist...just b carefull not to lok at your own reflection...

Imagine one of those dummasses gott 72 virgins...but Allah didnt tell him they were all men!!!..:lol:

[poutismalakas]

why do I keeep hearing MUSLIM in the same sentence with bombs/terror/suicide?...
Muslim= to Submitt to the creator...unbreakable faith..always spiritualy strong...knowing without God...nothing is possible.
Suicide Terrorist=a looser...to give up hope...WEAK...a rebel without a clue
Both contridict each other meaning it's imposible to b both...+ the media will only focus in the middle east....why?....because we like to look at others & point fingers without looking at ourselves...there are terrorist all over the world today...they feed on the inocent...& love to see you die (spiritually) you may look at them as normal people...they come in different forms/sizes...look outside your window one day & think about what is a terrorist...just b carefull not to lok at your own reflection...

Imagine one of those dummasses gott 72 virgins...but Allah didnt tell him they were all men!!!..:lol:


I just think that the whole idea about suicide bombing is justified in the bomber's head as defending his beliefs and hurting his eniemy. I think alot of them are a proud that they are doing it. Yes I bet at the last moment their is doubt but I think for the most part they think they are doing a great thing and going to a greater place! So with that I think in order to combat that you have combat the reason behind their actions???

[ZabbaZibba]

I know exactly what your saying...But that doesnt have anything to do with being a Muslim...You live in Cali so I'm sure your awar of the gang driveby's/ drug/prostitution rings..ect that happen around/near your area. Are they terrorist...yes. What im trying to tell you that this has nothing to do with religion...before you can help others...you have to help youself... it is the evil among us that kills...without God you are allready dead.

[el Turco]

And I am fully aware of that and I already provided some citations to verses which clearly state that suicide is forbidden. I am against Suicide bombings here. Hell I am against war period.


I know you are against it. :)


I think that they have nothing to live for or believe in. So they believe in a better afterlife and are driven to extreme heights and use the Quran to somehow justify suicide. I do not think that its under the influence of drugs that Hamas and Islamic Jihad gets teenagers to blow each other up. There have always been in the Quran certain quotes which can be very easily misinterpreted into something more then it is. Such as the following quote from 5.45

"And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust."

The quote can be used toat is what so many Muslims need to come to terms with, they have to learn respond in eye for an eye tactics meaning equal retaliation. However some certain individuals take it and change it into this call of slaughter. Which is rather wrong. they have to learn how to understand the Quran first, before going about what is and isn't Islamic.

That's what Im talking about, though. They use Islam to justify their acts. Then people that dont know anything about Islam think we are terrorists. I dont know where you live, but here in US, I have witnessed that many times unfortunately. People add their ignorance and what they see on TV and start thinking inaccurate things about Islam. Media also plays big role on this. They always show violence done by so-called Muslims, but never talk about other billions of Muslims who always preach peace, I wonder why. :rolleyes:

Academico made a very good point. Religion has nothing to with being terrorist. Bloods and crips are terrorists, ETA is terrorist, KKK was terrorist, PKK is terrorist. I hate how they mix terrorism with religion. I dont think any religion promotes terrorism.

[poutismalakas]

You forgot that the Grey Wolves are terrorist.

[Bosnian Unit]

I would not say they are brainwashed, there is just point where one cant take shit anymore, and he/she just says ***k it !



I knew one women here who jumped from the birdge, it was suicide and she knew what she was doing.Before the war broke out her family went out of the country but she was married to a Bosniak , everything was fine they had a kid etc...Nobady ever heard of any problems in their relationship but.....

One morning she got up, her son had to go to school, she made him breakfast etc...he went to school, she made everything nice in the house went on the bridge and jumped......her husband was at work, he found out what happend one hour later, there was a person walking by who saw her smoking cigarrete on the bridge, he passed her and after a few minutes he turned back for some reason and he didnt see her, but she had nowhere to go its long bridge, he went back and saw her dead on the ground by the river.

For some reason she did that, she had no place to go probably could not live with something, i dont know.....there was just something that she could not take anymore and choose to kill herself, but she was a nice and always happy women when you see her........:rolleyes:


Back to the topic.....

For example Hezbollah is considered ''terrorost organization'' by UK,USA,Israel and some other countries but they are popular in their part of the world.

Right after Israelis stoped bombing Lebanon it was Hezbollah members who where going from house to house offering people money and whatever they need to fix their homes etc...

I would not call that brainwashing, for example its the way to turn people on your side by helping them......of course who ever likes Hezbollah in the Western world they would say he is just brainwashed, poor him what a hell he knows etc...

Thats how you win so called hearts and minds of people......not like USA was talking about winning hearts and minds of Iraqis but they started them with SHOCK AND AWE :sad:!

[poutismalakas]

Back to the topic.....

For example Hezbollah is considered ''terrorost organization'' by UK,USA,Israel and some other countries but they are popular in their part of the world.

Right after Israelis stoped bombing Lebanon it was Hezbollah members who where going from house to house offering people money and whatever they need to fix their homes etc...

I would not call that brainwashing, for example its the way to turn people on your side by helping them......of course who ever likes Hezbollah in the Western world they would say he is just brainwashed, poor him what a hell he knows etc...

Thats how you win so called hearts and minds of people......not like USA was talking about winning hearts and minds of Iraqis but they started them with SHOCK AND AWE :sad:!

Actually There alot of cases of the US troops giving clothes, food, generators, etc... Only to have those people get killed for being collaborators....

I highly doubt Hezbollah was going to Sunni and Christian areas that got hit offering money?!


The thing is that ALL Media outlets have their agendas and they run with those agendas!

Operation Iraqi freedom is the biggest BULLSHIT war ever made IMO! It was totally unnecessary and afterwards run very poorly. WHY would you disband such a large organization as the Iraqi army with out giving those now unemployed people replacement jobs! Why avoid dealing with tribal leaders when you're in an essential tribal based culture!? :rolleyes:

[Saraj Fanático]

I know you are against it. :)

That's what Im talking about, though. They use Islam to justify their acts. Then people that dont know anything about Islam think we are terrorists. I dont know where you live, but here in US, I have witnessed that many times unfortunately. People add their ignorance and what they see on TV and start thinking inaccurate things about Islam. Media also plays big role on this. They always show violence done by so-called Muslims, but never talk about other billions of Muslims who always preach peace, I wonder why. :rolleyes:

It makes no difference. We can be shooting it out with our enemies yet they will still see us all as radicals, terrorists, extremists and all those other words they use to refer to todays Muslim. Take the Chechens for an example. They have been tortured, abused, terrorized, and slaughtered for years now. Russians never took the blame. Yet it always was the Chechen Mujahideen being the terrorists and enemy. They fought fairly and followed the rules of war until a group couldn't handle it any longer and did to Russians what Russians did to them (Beslan) and a few other attacks before that. The media took that and put the icing on the cake. There is no such thing as the West accepting the right for Muslims to defend them selfs. We are always the enemy, because like it or not, this has evolved into a religious conflict.

Academico made a very good point. Religion has nothing to with being terrorist. Bloods and crips are terrorists, ETA is terrorist, KKK was terrorist, PKK is terrorist. I hate how they mix terrorism with religion. I dont think any religion promotes terrorism.

I have been down in New York just before the summer of 05 began and it was indeed tragic in so many ways of some of the things I saw. My stay was in the Upper Manhattan area, a pretty bad area. So many people associating them selfs with stupidity such as gangs and being a thug. Those Crips and Bloods are supported through the media and television also. When you see Snoop Dogg on TV doing the Crip walk and all that childish shit you immediately see people on the street follow. You see people giving tips to youth on how to look 'Gangsta' on MTV. You have producers releasing movies on 50 Cent robbing people and shooting everything up, all of this inspires the youth to do exactly as they see, since the Media has made all the things which corrupt society cool, being a killer, being gangster, hustling, all of that shit. And you got Music which is all about the same shit also. I think the Number 1 problem in the United States is what people are fed by the Media and also by TV.

[Sebastian]

In Qur'an Allah forbids any kind of killing innocents, only permission is to attack if they attack you, for self-defense. Now they(Palestinians) can say, "they're attacking us, so we should attack back", but killing innocent people is not allowed in Islam. If they want to save their country and get their revenge, they should form their own army and fight back against the army of Israel.

It says in the Qur'an, killing one innocent person is like killing the whole humanhood. Also, committing suicide is unforgivable, as Academico said. Plus, you misrepresent Islam, make it look like a violent religion. That, to me is a huge responsibility to have in the day of Judgement.

:)

2:193): “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)”

(3:118): "O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitânah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand."

(5:33): “The recompense of those who wage war against Allâh and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.”

(5:51): "O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)."

(5:57): "O you who believe! Take not for Auliyâ' (protectors and helpers) those who take your religion for a mockery and fun from among those who received the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before you, nor from among the disbelievers; and fear Allâh if you indeed are true believers."

(8:12): Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

(8:65): “O Prophet (Muhammad SAW)! Urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty steadfast persons amongst you, they will overcome two hundred, and if there be a hundred steadfast persons they will overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are people who do not understand.”

(9:123): “O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the Al-Muttaqûn (pious).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden - such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book - until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled." (Repentance, 9: 25)

"Acting as Allah's soldier for one night in a battlefield is superior to saying prayers at home for 2,000 years." (Ibn-E-Majah, Vol. 2, p. 166)

The Prophet said: "If a man participates in a Jehad for only as long as it takes to milk a she-camel, he becomes entitled to paradise." (Ibn-E-Majah, Vol. 2, p. 173)

The Prophet said: "The superior Jehad is the one in which both the crusader and his horse are wounded." (Ibn-E-Majah, Vol. 2, p. 173)

"A man who was eating dates, said to the prophet 'Where shall I be if I am killed in Jehad?' He replied: 'In paradise.' The man threw away the dates and fought until he was killed." (Sahih Muslim: 4678)

The Prophet said: "He who murders another (in Jihad), property of the murdered becomes property of the murderer." (Ibn-E-Majah, Vol. 2, p. 183)

The holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) laid down the following rules (as found on p. 188-189 of Ibn-E-Majah, Vol. 2) to conquer the world:

When you meet an enemy (infidels) give them three choices:

1. Invite them to embrace Islam

2. If they do not accept the proposal, then they must surrender and pay tribute,

3. if they reject both alternatives, then fight them mercilessly:

The holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) said "It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter...Eat what you have taken as booty; it is lawful and good." (The Spoils, 8: 65)

Qur’an-(9:5): “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, And seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ; but if they repent (accept Islam) and establish regular prayers and practices regular charity then open the way for them; for God is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

By praising your religion in this manner,you should be ready for a reply,since Religion should be carefully served and i can not stay blind on this,aware what implications this might cause,so should you.
I am an innocent,but i do not believe in your religion nor in Allah,Jesus or Jahve...That makes me an unbeliever...Unbelievers are unbelievers,i am one of them...Quran strictly specifies what should be done to the unbelievers such as my self...

Do not connect this with the topic,since it is an individual reply

[ZabbaZibba]

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/xiaolin_beauty35/timetodie.jpg

[Sebastian]

Hahaha :lol:

[Saraj Fanático]

All of these quotes are incomplete and much of the material is not even present in the Quran. Let me go over each one of them.



2:193): “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)”

This is the actual verse from the Quran:

[2:190]Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits (Go on beyond the concept of defense); for God loveth not transgressors (Aggressors).

[2:191]And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

[2:192]But if they cease (Stop fighting you), God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful

[2:193]And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

[2:194]The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him (Those who attacked). But fear God, and know that God is with those who restrain themselves (Keep from doing wrong).

Now I read your quote and the understanding is way off. That quote has been used by fascists time and time again to make the Quran look like a book of Satan for unbelievers. That quote sir has been passed on to the understanding of SELF DEFENSE. The quote is not a declaration of war, and by even your own quote (which is misunderstood by that certain translator) states in its ending the cease of slaughter if the wrongdoers were to stop also. Here is the Quran on peace treaties.

[8:61.3] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the date of expiration. GOD loves the righteous.

[4:90] …if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

The Quran also recognizes the protection of non-Muslims under war in a Muslim society. One of the few holy books which promotes this.

[9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.





(3:118): "O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitânah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand."

"O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)."

This quote has been translated wrong by English translators. The word "Bitânah" in the quote was not actually used to state "Friend", rather it was awliyaa. Here is the opening of the quote:

O ye who believe! Take not for friends (awliyaa) unbelievers rather than believers:

The word wali (Awliyaa) was translated as friend but the word does not always mean friend. It can mean protector, supporter and parton. Here is an article about the meaning of the quote and I strongly recommend this. http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/friends.htm

Here are some verses which accept the right to differ from Islam.

[60:8]GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[10:99] Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed.* Do you want to force the people to become believers?

[18:29]Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve...........

[2:256]There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

[109:1-6]Say, "O you disbelievers. "I do not worship what you worship. "Nor do you worship what I worship. "Nor will I ever worship what you worship. "Nor will you ever worship what I worship. "To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."

[2:148]Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, GOD will summon you all. GOD is Omnipotent.

[25:57]Say, "I do not ask you for any money. All I seek is to help you find the right path to your Lord, if this is what you choose."

[73:19]This (Quran) is a reminder; whoever wills, let him choose the path to his Lord.



(5:33): “The recompense of those who wage war against Allâh and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.”

eLcino that is a quote directed to those who wage war upon Islam. What in the world does that have to do with punishing unbelievers in general? I think you have a really hard time separating aggression towards unbelievers from self defense.





(8:12): Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

This quote was passed on to Muslims just before the Battle of Badr, which took place in Arabia in the 17th Century. A battle where pagans of Mecca traveled 200 miles to Medina with an army of 1,000 to wipe out the Muslims. Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) and his fellow Muslims suffered 13 years of aggression at the time and now they were once again threatened at the time. The Muslim army was about 300 strong (This is the real 300 you may say, heh) and Allah passed this quote down to prepare for self defense where unbelievers mainly refers to the Mekkans who were marching to end the presence of the Islamic faith at the time.

(8:65): “O Prophet (Muhammad SAW)! Urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty steadfast persons amongst you, they will overcome two hundred, and if there be a hundred steadfast persons they will overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are people who do not understand.”

Nothing wrong about this quote since again, its a quote referring to defending our own faith. There is no such thing as a call to arms unless the unbelievers first did it to us. Thats a fact which you and others have to accept before throwing around such lies.


(9:123): “O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the Al-Muttaqûn (pious).

In this quote Muhammad refers to the Muslims who have not participated in the confrontation with the Byzantine Christians where Muhammad led a large army of 30,000 soldiers to the northern city of Tabuk. This quote was passed to those who said they believe but refused to help other Muslims out when they needed it the most. This quote is directed to hypocrites, not unbelievers in general.


"Fight those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden - such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book - until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled." (Repentance, 9: 25)

That quote is dead wrong. I suggest you look it up again.

Here is the actual quote:

[9:25]GOD has granted you victory in many situations. But on the day of Hunayn, you became too proud of your great number. Consequently, it did not help you at all, and the spacious earth became so straitened around you, that you turned around and fled.

This is a quote which has nothing to do with Unbelievers but rather with Muslims after the battle against the Bedouin tribe of Hawazin.

"Acting as Allah's soldier for one night in a battlefield is superior to saying prayers at home for 2,000 years." (Ibn-E-Majah, Vol. 2, p. 166)

The Prophet said: "If a man participates in a Jehad for only as long as it takes to milk a she-camel, he becomes entitled to paradise." (Ibn-E-Majah, Vol. 2, p. 173)

The Prophet said: "The superior Jehad is the one in which both the crusader and his horse are wounded." (Ibn-E-Majah, Vol. 2, p. 173)

"A man who was eating dates, said to the prophet 'Where shall I be if I am killed in Jehad?' He replied: 'In paradise.' The man threw away the dates and fought until he was killed." (Sahih Muslim: 4678)

The Prophet said: "He who murders another (in Jihad), property of the murdered becomes property of the murderer." (Ibn-E-Majah, Vol. 2, p. 183)

The holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) laid down the following rules (as found on p. 188-189 of Ibn-E-Majah, Vol. 2) to conquer the world:

When you meet an enemy (infidels) give them three choices:

1. Invite them to embrace Islam

2. If they do not accept the proposal, then they must surrender and pay tribute,

3. if they reject both alternatives, then fight them mercilessly:


All Hadiths from Ibn-E-Majah to Abdullah ibn Umar I nor any true Muslim should accept. Those words he wrote are all his own understandings and not FROM THE QURAN. This is why I told Poutis a while ago that Islam's biggest enemy might be the ones who are suppose to teach us. But if you have a quote to offer me from the Quran (Gods word which we follow, not Ibn Majah's) then I will more then happily love to explain it to you like I have done with the others.



Qur’an-(9:5): “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, And seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ; but if they repent (accept Islam) and establish regular prayers and practices regular charity then open the way for them; for God is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, you need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriks (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriks of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriks of Makkah to make amends.

Quranic verses about killing of disbelievers accepts to only a particular period when the disbelievers had rejected a treaty. It is like generalizing the American army order to kill Vietnamese guerillas for all time to come.

By praising your religion in this manner,you should be ready for a reply,since Religion should be carefully served and i can not stay blind on this,aware what implications this might cause,so should you.
I am an innocent,but i do not believe in your religion nor in Allah,Jesus or Jahve...That makes me an unbeliever...Unbelievers are unbelievers,i am one of them...Quran strictly specifies what should be done to the unbelievers such as my self...

Do not connect this with the topic,since it is an individual reply


I am ready for a reply, any reply, you name it. Because these is no verse in the Quran which cannot be explained. And I have done that for you if you are truly a person who is willing to look into this. Allah has no plans for what anything should be done to unbelievers except those who have waged wars against his religion. I hope you realize that by the time your done reading this reply.

[ZabbaZibba]

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee164/cadman_rh/thank-you.gif

[el Turco]

Great Post Saraj. :) :thumbsup:

[Saraj Fanático]

Thanks bro. :)

[Bosnian Unit]

Saraj Fanático,

That's was one of the best posts from you :).


Its simple, they are trying to REWRITE Koran, as they did BIBLE.......But this will not happend becouse we have original one and they have copy :D.

[Saraj Fanático]

Thanks man. Its tragic how many individuals try to convert the Quran into something it is not. People should really read and learn for them selfs, influence doesn't always have a positive affect.

[SiN]

That was one long ass post :D

[Sebastian]

I can pretty much assure you that these quotes arent from a local grocery shop worker,as i will prove to you latter.Islamists always defend their
religion with out of contextexamples as if the Quran is a Science encyclopedia and not a religious and folklore collection which has no rational and logical background whatsoever,as if we are discussing exact aspects and not abstract and linguistic translation distortions.I agree that there is no verse in the Quran that can not be explained,but only from the Muslim apologetics,who always dig some"out of context"issues. The one who wants to SEE something he will see it even in an empty page and we are talking about tons of pages,full with irrational"facts",where Allegories,metaphors,Parables and analogies are the biggest "arguments" of it's supposedly "divine"origin.It is the same,with the Bible,Torah,the Vedas and pretty much every"holy book out there(which even threatens the Comic industry business).
I have seen the site from where you used their"out of context" examples and that America and Vietnam ridiculous comparison and i can see that you use only someone else's opinion on the matter.That's why i prefer eyes to eyes debates when these matters are concerned,as this "browsing" madness will lead us nowhere.I know that site for quite some time and reading your source of reply was a bit amusing.Using the Internet"like eating in a Fast Food Restaurant"can be quite unpleasant in a debate...I prefer my own stuff,but since it is hard for people to preserve originality on internet,i will use it more or less...

First thing's first...Here's the dictionary meaning of the words Fitnah and Tumult.You seem to use your version of the Quran translation to desecrate my quote in order to be perceived as fictional and non existing,while compromising it's meaning.It is plain to me that you havent even made a thorough research,but just copy and pasted what you saw on your "reliable" source of arguments.

l"Virtual Philosopher" it describes someone who uses Internet in his debates and in panic he doesnt even use his own analogies,but literally uses someone else's.This is why Internet debates are so pointless...You can browse Internet as much as you like,while real debates are extremely intensive and they require hyper fast brain horse power to keep the pace.There's nothing wrong in using the Internet for resources,but it often hyperbolizes one's knowledge and his engine of creation,which is always counterproductive...


fitna
(also fitnah)
¦ noun Islam unrest or rebellion, especially against a rightful ruler.

Arab., 'rebellion, strife'

fitnah

(Arabic; "trial" or "test")

In the Islamic tradition, trials or temptations that test the unity of the Muslim community.

The term may be used to describe insurrection or civil warfare or, more specifically, to define a tribunal over doctrinal issues, broadly similar to the Christian Inquisition. There were four fitnahs in the early history of Islam. The first (656–661) followed the murder of the third caliph, Uthman ibn Affan. It brought up the question of ?Ali's right to rule and prompted a military conflict that eventually resulted in the schism between the Sunnite and the Shiite branches. The second coincided with the caliphate of Yazid I (680–683); it was a continuation of the struggle between claimants to the caliphate and led to the death of al-Husayn ibn Ali at the Battle of Karbala
another formative event in the Sunnite-Shi?ite split. The third fitnah (744–750) resulted in the ascendancy of the Abbasid dynasty. The fourth evolved from the caliphate's support for the Mutazilite theological school and successfully challenged the caliph's authority to enforce doctrinal rigour.

Here is Yours:

tumult
n. commotion, clamor, confusion; riot, angry demonstration by a crowd; mental turmoil, emotional turmoil

tumult
¦ noun
a loud, confused noise, as caused by a large mass of people.
confusion or disorder.
tumult
? noun
she added her voice to the tumult: CLAMOUR, din, noise, racket, uproar, commotion, ruckus, rumpus, hubbub, pandemonium, babel, bedlam, brouhaha, furore, fracas, melee, frenzy; Scottish & N. English stramash; informal hullabaloo; Brit. informal row.
years of political tumult: TURMOIL, confusion, disorder, disarray, unrest, chaos, turbulence, mayhem, havoc, upheaval, ferment, agitation, trouble.

A lot of Muslims will see your "authentic"version of the Sura 2:193 and will immediately exclude mine as not genuine.As i have proven above,there is nowhere in the dictionary an Islamic connection for the term tumultAltough their meaning is similar,Fitnah is the original word and it's meaning is more than meets the eye,lot deeper than it's translation.

Here it is again:

Definition: In Islamic tradition, fitnah refers, first, to the opposition to Islam experienced by early Muslims and, second, threats to the health of the umma. In Arabic fitnah means "trial, testing."

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah)"

I'll let you to conclude the authenticity of mine and your's versions.As it is cristally clear why it is used that particular word and not Fitnah,so that it avoids the original meaning,which is quite eclatant by now.Right from the beginning you prove that you do not really understood what "fitnah" really means,as the Muslim apologetics hide it and use an alternative which has no islamic meaning whatsoever.This is how the Quran and it's "Peacfull message"is served to the non Arabic population.

Orthodox Islam does not accept that a rendering of the Quran into another language is a "translation" in the way that, say, the King James Bible is a translation of the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. A point often made by Islamic apologists to defang criticism is that only Arabic readers may understand the Quran. But Arabic is a language like any other and fully capable of translation. Indeed, most Muslims are not Arabic readers.

Instead of using the authentic word which has a different meaning(although similar,but it describes something beyond the meaning of the non islamic word),the translators in order to camouflage the religious background of it's meaning are using another word,which is a translation of the Fitnah word,who is by the way pretty hard to translate actually ;)

Fitna (????) is an Arabic word, generally regarded as very difficult to translate but at the same time is considered to be an all encompassing word referring to schism, secession, upheaval and anarchy at once. It is often used to refer to civil war, disagreement and division within Islam and specifically alludes to a time involving trials of faith, similar to the Tribulation in Christian eschatology.

There's the Arabic authentic word,can you show me the Arabic word for "Tumult"????Is it Fitnah????There is none...Translating Religion is a sensitive matter and shouldn't be translated as if we are translating "Calcio" from Italian to "Kick" in English.It is really naive that the word "Allah" is used by it's original arabic word and not
simply as the God. al-ilah The God.You go on and try to find the alternate meaning of a certain translated word to boredom(like with the Christians and the Jews),but this one is suddenly forgotten????
Religious terminology is a zone where translators should tread with the highest caution,because they tread on glass.Religion is like a H-Bomb if not translated and dished authenticly,but it's abstract character gives the translator a freedom,bigger then the one which Joe Satriani has with it's Guitar Tremolo.(Which it is a tradition when religion is concerned,as it is no Physics,i mean Atom is an Atom,it's meaning is universal and that is the distinction between the Religion and Science.And when i want to really amuse me and laugh my Glial cells off,i just play some Religious fanatics "facts" about the Astronomy axiomas in the Bible or about the Theory of Relativity in the Quran,it is more fun than Naked gun i tell you).

Here is the meaning of the Cristian equivalent of Fitnah:

Tribulation
The Tribulation (or "Great Tribulation") is an event referred to in the New Testament of the Bible at ("For then shall be great tribulation..." - King James Version) and other passages. In the futurist view of Christian eschatology, the Tribulation is a relatively short period of time where believers will experience worldwide persecution and be purified and strengthened by it. This view was introduced to the modern church by John Nelson Darby, the father of dispensationalism, became widely accepted through the notes in the Scofield Reference Bible of 1909, and was recently popularized through the novels in the Left Behind series.

Oppression in Arabic is different than in English.
Islam is Quran centric, the language of the untranslated Quran is Arabic there for the understanding must be based on Arabic words.
Your version sounds so innocent,as if they are only allowed to fight in self defense...Not in Religious conquest to obliterate all those who oppose the will of Allah....
Allah The Pagan Moon God(the Symbol of Islam) and his three daughters(remember Salman Rushdie???).
Muslims today do not worship Allah's daughters and view them as pagan deities. Having said that, it is important to note that Muhammad himself commanded his followers offer prayers to these "Allah's daughters". He later retracted it and blamed it on the Devil.This is also"out of the context".
The Quraysh tribe into which Muhammad was born was particularly devoted to Allah, the moon god, and especially to Allah's three daughters who were viewed as intercessors between the people and Allah.
The worship of the three goddesses, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, played a significant role in the worship at the Kabah in Mecca.Do you know how much doubt this accumulates???Rusdie exploited this extremely well leaving no room for debate,arguments and polemics...It was a dead end for Islam and what does Islam does when it faces a dead end????

"I inform the proud Muslim people of the world that the author of the Satanic Verses book which is against Islam, the Prophet and the Koran, and all involved in its publication who were aware of its content, are sentenced to death."

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini
FATWA issued February, 1989
against Salman Rushdie

"There is no room for play in Islam... It is deadly serious about everything."
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini
Speech at Qum,
reported in Timemagazine January 7, 1980

This dude isnt some mindless freak,which we can deny his substance and intentions.It is the founder of the greatest islamic domain on Earth.

Now I read your quote and the understanding is way off. That quote has been used by fascists time and time again to make the Quran look like a book of Satan for unbelievers. That quote sir has been passed on to the understanding of SELF DEFENSE. The quote is not a declaration of war, and by even your own quote (which is misunderstood by that certain translator) states in its ending the cease of slaughter if the wrongdoers were to stop also. Here is the Quran on peace treaties.
Here's the Piece treaties indeed...

Sura 9:3: “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "War is deceit." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269)
You deny this????Do you understand what this implies???

So be not weak and ask not for peace while you are having the upper hand. God is with you, and will never decrease the reward of your good deeds. S. 47:35 Hilali-Khan

“Kill the mushrikeen (polytheists, Christians and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush”. Surah 9:5

“Fight them, until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s” Surah 193

47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

This last one is particularly juicy...Unbelievers.Either generosity or ransom???I see this and wonder,how will you defend your "Islamic Windows" with something as perverted and twisted as this???

[2:193]And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
This sounds exacly as you would want to sound...You see,it is you the one who doesnt understand this.Blinded by your haste to defend your "Arabic Imperialistic Software"just like the Jewish and the Christian,you somehow forgot this:

IslamAwakened.com does not endorse or label "authentic" any single English translation of the meaning of the Qur'an. The Qur'an was revealed in Arabic and and it refers within itself back to the Arabic language. Only the Arabic recitation is the actual Qur'an.
This is what Quran is ment to be like.And you have used a translation that is far from the true meaning of the arabic word...

Tumult means what it means and it justify your defense,but only to ignorants and mediocres.This verse actually means "Wipe all unbelievers until justice prevails(Islamic) and let there be no hostility to those who convert to Islam(because they are already converted)so continue with those who didnt.Which lead us to the inevitable history of your own people.

Wikipedia-
Bosnia & Herzegovina’s Slavic population underwent a large-scale conversion to Islam after the region’s conquest and occupation by the Ottoman Empire in the second half of the 15th century, giving it a unique character within the Balkan region. This conversion appears to have been neither sudden nor, for the most part, coerced, but rather was a gradual and voluntary process--it took more than a hundred years for the number of Slavic Muslims to approach parity with that of Christians. (Malcolm 1994, pp. 51–55)

Several factors appear to have been behind this process. Most important was that Christianity had relatively shallow roots in Bosnia on the eve of the Ottoman invasion. Bosnia lacked a strong Christian church organization to command a strong following--the result of a scarcity of priests and competition among the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches and the indigenous and schismatic Bosnian Church, which collapsed shortly before the Ottomans arrived. This left most Bosnians religiously unengaged and receptive to the appeal of Islam’s sophisticated and dynamic institutions. This receptiveness was aided by the development among many Bosnians of a kind of folk Christianity centered on various practices and ceremonies that was adaptable to a form of folk Islam popular at the time of the invasion. (Fine 2002, p. 6; Friedman 1996, pp. 16–18; Malcolm 1994, pp. 41–42; Sugar 1977, pp. 52–53)

Economic and social gain was also an incentive to become a Muslim: conversion to Islam conferred economic and social status. Under the feudal system imposed by the Ottomans, only those who converted to Islam could acquire and inherit land and property, which accorded them political rights and status denied non-Muslims. A number of Christian nobles, however, were able to retain their estates early on in the Ottoman occupation by fighting on behalf of the Empire, suggesting that holding on to their property was not a major incentive for early conversions to Islam. At a lower socioeconomic level, most new converts to Islam were able to turn their holdings into freehold farms. At the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder were the serfs, who constituted the majority of the population and were predominantly Christians. In addition, only Muslims could hold positions in the Ottoman state apparatus, which conferred special privileges and a much higher standard of living. Muslims also enjoyed legal privileges: Christians could not sue Muslims and their testimony could not be used against Muslims in court. (Friedman 1996, p. 30; Friedman 2004, p. 8; Malcolm 1994, pp. 63–66; McCarthy 1994, p. 65)

The gradual conversion of many Bosnians to Islam proceeded at different rates in various areas and among different groups. Conversion to Islam was more rapid in urban areas, which were centers of learning and of the Ottoman administration, than in the countryside. Merchants found it advantageous to convert to Islam because they gained greater freedom of movement and state protection for their goods as Muslims. Many professional soldiers also converted to Islam to ensure more rapid promotion. (Friedman 1996, pp. 18–19)

The various advantages and priviliges that were reserved for Muslims and the large number of conversions they encouraged among the native Slavic population led to the emergence over time of a largely local Slavic Muslim ruling class that dominated political and economic power in Bosnia and Herzegovina. (Jelavich 1983, pp. 88–89)
Whether they are subject to Islamic or Christian assimilation is irrelevant.It is important to understand how religion operates in order to absorb as many subordinates.

Its tragic how many individuals try to convert the Quran into something it is not. People should really read and learn for them selfs, influence doesn't always have a positive affect.

You think i have been influenced about the Quran by "infidels"???Dude i aint a Christian nor a Jew,i have no religious Alter Ego so that i attack and discredit yours.It is a book full with contradictions,linguistic errors,sinister and double standard messages and above all it is written as a justification for the Arabic Conquest.Talking about influence.Only religion influences people,by it's Repressive embryo that gives you false hope of reality that exists only on people's mind corridors.

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29)

You are trying to distort the essence of suras such as this one...Everyone with 3 and half functional neurons can configure the paradigm of this.You know the meaning of this very well,but it is the way of Islam to deceive people and infiltrate in to their SMOOTH pulpa cerebral and fulfill the ancient legacy of Arabia.You know Refuting Christianity is a bit more difficult,cos you dont find eclatant hatred and Vlad's Dracul methods of "body lobotomy" in there,but it's purpose like the Quran(who by the way plagiated what worthed and it is no wonder that intellectuals call the Quran as the Torah plagiate)is to make a "tool"out of you.Anyway it is lot more subtle in it's intentions,the only difference with the Quran,is that Christianity will kill you with kindness and Islam will slay and mutilate you like a pig.Not that Christianity havent done enough slaughter,but you wont see Jesus asking from his followers to fight everyone or smite their necks and cut of their finger tips...or play monopoly with their hands or legs,put them in a bag and ask for ransom...I mean.The inquisition is like any other religious fanatic association who is a hegemon in it's society.They did what they did and they were perverted and twisted imbecils,who slaughtered stratospheric intellects who would've contributed to this Civilization even more for it's evolutionary development,but those methods arent described in the Bible...Anyone who has read the Bible knows what Jesus said and that this perversion isnt generated from the symbol of Christianity,which is by the way a vast utopia.While the Quran cant
make up it's mind...Smite the unbelievers necks and give them safe passage to idol worshipers(safe passage so that they convert to Islam),i mean this sounds so ridiculous...This isnt out of context,as it is strictly "business"for the islamistic holy warriors.

eLcino that is a quote directed to those who wage war upon Islam. What in the world does that have to do with punishing unbelievers in general? I think you have a really hard time separating aggression towards unbelievers from self defense.

"what in the world does that have to do with punishing unbelievers in general?"
Let me remind you:
(5:33): “The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.”

This cant be narrated by a Merciful and Divine being who created those who are about to be mutilated in the first place.Is he a sadist so that it pleases to watch all that pointless massacres???(OOO i know,Alah has his own way of thinking and he works in mysterious ways)The thing that they wage war against him(as we are talking about some All Powerful being,who cant even be seen,let alone attacked and waged war against)is not only making this a silly excuse,but it spices the killing with a certain trademarks,that certain occults did in the past.The Christianity burned people,but this is particularly "artistic"...It just cant,be from someone who's highest ideal is peace.This is a product of a cold blooded,meticulous,unscrupulous murderer,who's methods are so frightening,that it serves as an example to all those who oppose him,that if they wage war against him,they will end up like this...It is interesting that the Crucifixion is mentioned.For those Cross bearers who intended to conquer their land.It is plain that the Christians and the Muslims have their own methods which didnt originated from a divine being but by their lust for conquest...There's nothing Divine in this...These are a bunch of Fanatics who justify their lust for Blood and thrill,with their Fairy tales and myths who are shocking to the rational mind.How do you find relief from all that guilt that is crushing down your knees???The justification of a supreme being,who looks more like Stalin rather than some All knowing and all powerful
ontologic entity.Hell i dont blame Muhammad...He was just a product of his time and Arbs needed their Equivalent to the Jewish Jahve and the Cristian one...They didnt rewrote all those Bible and Torah collection of tales for nothing...They based their religious system on the Jewish monoteistic concept,which is more than obvious,with a bunch of Arabic folklore and parables.
I understand better than you think the distinction between aggressors and self defense.This is however not a self defense,to kill in self defense is allowed,to mutilate a dead human body is so much more than your pitiful attempt to justify this freak show of a self defense.Even war has it's principles and to kill a man is enough,but to deface and vandalize a human body like this,only speaks about the psychological profile,of the one who asked for this(this is a common thing to the victims of the islamistic corroded sabers)It is not a propaganda to see someone who's being mutilated on a video by islamistic holy warriors...They are everywhere.And you have the cheek to say that this is a peaceful religion???Not all Muslims are Terrorists,but All Terrorists are Muslims...It is not that easy for a sane human being to allow him self to practice what Homeini's preached and how to deal with unbelievers.I just want to remind you that the ones who are participating in Islamistic terrorist atacks arent some mindless morons without a lepton of consciousness and intelligence...It is so interesting to see how some defend Islam by calling others who punished the unbelievers,Untrue Muslims.Are they on drugs????I doubt...Anyway everyone who intends to serve the Peaceful intention of Islam will be banged with an event like the killing of a 16 year old girl in Canada by her own father for not wearing a Hijab and because she didnt submitted to his will...This is but a blown leave blown from the wind.How is it like when something happens(and it happens too frequently)all of the Muslim society reacts"yeah he isnt a true Muslim,killings are not allowed).What is it that you people imagine,when you see something like this from a member of your peaceful religion???This thing happens occasionally by some Christian freak who hears a word of God and then goes and blow up his school.But this guy wasnt a schizophrenic...He just wanted his daughter to be subordinated to his will and to Islamistic law she wasnt...So???Off you go(a lot of muslims doesnt practice this,but Women are supposed to be covered in Islam,it is one of it's criteria and not because it leaves you choice,the ones that doesnt do this are only ignoring the islamic law.)...There's too many examples of this and the effect of islam on people's psychology,so it is tiring to continue...You can defend and call these Religious fanatics,idiots and not true Muslims,but somehow your alternative suras who speaks about peace,arent really effective and when they are countered with the ones that are "puled out of context" they look like Elvis Presley in his last day.

(8:12): Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

This quote was passed on to Muslims just before the Battle of Badr, which took place in Arabia in the 17th Century. A battle where pagans of Mecca traveled 200 miles to Medina with an army of 1,000 to wipe out the Muslims. Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) and his fellow Muslims suffered 13 years of aggression at the time and now they were once again threatened at the time. The Muslim army was about 300 strong (This is the real 300 you may say, heh) and Allah passed this quote down to prepare for self defense where unbelievers mainly refers to the Mekkans who were marching to end the presence of the Islamic faith at the time.

Oh???

sura 8:12
The first step in our exegetical method is to quote the verse from a reputable translation. MAS Abdel Haleem (The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004) translates Sura 8:12 as follows:

8:12 Your [Muhammad’s] Lord revealed to the angels: "I am with you: give the believers firmness; I shall put terror into the hearts of the disbelievers. Strike above their necks and strike their fingertips."

The second step in our exegetical method is to examine the historical context of Sura 8:12. No scholar doubts the historical context of Sura 8—it was revealed after the unexpected victory of the Muslims over the much-larger Meccan army at the wells of Badr, some seventy to eighty miles west of Medina, Muhammad’s new city since 622. Taking place in March 624, the Battle of Badr pitted about 320 Muslims against around 1000 Meccans who had marched north to protect their large caravan returning south from Syria, laden with goods. To intercept and capture this caravan would relieve the financial strains of the fledgling Muslim community in Medina. Also, it would weaken the Meccans who had soundly rejected Muhammad two years earlier. However, the Meccans heard of Muhammad’s plan to attack their caravan, so they mustered a force and marched north. Surprisingly, Muhammad won the battle and collected the goods and returned to Medina, believing that Allah saved the weak Muslim community (Sura 8:26, 30, 72).

Some Muslims argued over how to divide the spoils (Sura 8:1), but Allah tells his prophet that he gets twenty percent for himself and for his close relatives and orphans and other needy people (v. 41); the remaining eighty percent were to be divided among all others who had participated in the battle. Now his financial standing in Medina improved immeasurably, as well as his social standing. It was at this time that he ordered some of his enemies to be assassinated.

Thus, all of Sura 8 reveals the elation of a real-life, historical military victory, and Muhammad presses home this victory, as we now see in the literary context—the verses surrounding Sura 8:12.

The third step in our exegetical method is to explore the literary context of Sura 8:12, in this case vv. 5-14. These verses show Muhammad reveling in victory and promising all unbelievers the same fate as the defeated Meccans. For example, in vv. 7-8, he admits that his Muslims wanted the unarmed group (the caravan), but Allah gave them that group as well as the army in order to prove the "Truth to be true and the false to be false" (v. 8). This demonstrates that Muhammad connected military power with the spread of the truth or Islam—always a dubious connection. Next, in v. 9 Allah promised Muhammad reinforcements of "a thousand angels in succession." This gave Muhammad the hope of victory. Finally, vv. 13-14 say that anyone who opposes Allah and his messenger would get the same punishment that the Meccans got: "‘That is what you get! Taste that!’—and the torment of the Fire awaits the disbelievers" (v. 14). This is standard deduction in the Quran. Hell is for losers.

The historical and literary contexts, then, reveal that Allah helps Muhammad with angels, that his military victory demonstrates the truth of Islam and the falsehood of polytheism, and that the unbelievers go to hell. Clearly, Muhammad’s victory wins him respect and even fear from the inhabitants of Medina.

The fourth step in our exegetical process is to analyze and interpret key elements in Sura 8:12, which reveal three bloody truths. First, the verb "to strike" (three-letter root is D-r-b) is used two times: "strike above their necks" and "strike their fingertips." Some translations exceed the fingertips and say: "fingers and toes" (Hilali and Khan); "every joint of their bodies" (Maududi); "every pore and tip (Zafrulla Khan); and "every joint" (Ahmed Ali). Though Maududi’s translation is probably the original intent of the verse, the goal was to incapacitate the enemy so that he cannot fight again. Second, striking "above" the neck seems misplaced, but Yusuf Ali in his short comment on the verse says that the sword should strike "on the neck, face or head," which "finishes him off." So we must not take the preposition "above" too literally, unless Muhammad meant the head or the face. Regardless, the enemy would have died.

Third and finally, Allah sends Muslim angels to fight either for or with the Muslim humans. Their purpose is to put "terror" into the hearts of the unbelievers. Did these angels actually fight or just help the Muslims by their sides?

S. Abdul A’la Maududi holds the opinion that the Muslim angels merely helped the Muslims:

[T]he angels were not employed directly to take part in fighting and killing, but probably they were used to help the Muslims in making their strokes hard and effective. But the true knowledge is with Allah. (The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 2, pp. 133-34)

This last line is a polite way of saying that he really does not know, but favors the belief that the Muslim angels did not actually hit the Meccans. But the Muslim angels made sure that the sword strokes were "hard and effective."

Muhammad even had a revelation from the the Allah's financial adviser,how many percent he should take.

Nothing wrong about this quote since again, its a quote referring to defending our own faith. There is no such thing as a call to arms unless the unbelievers first did it to us. Thats a fact which you and others have to accept before throwing around such lies.

(8:65): “O Prophet (Muhammad SAW)! Urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty steadfast persons amongst you, they will overcome two hundred, and if there be a hundred steadfast persons they will overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are people who do not understand.”

Defending their faith....Like this???

“Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” 9:57

Sura 6:157 “Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth God's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.”

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

How is it that always the Muslims are defending themselves(beside their "artistic"methods of killing)when something like this is questioned????Muhammad was a man who didnt conquered???The Quran is full with War cry and battle"stimulators".

Sura 4:74: “Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, - whether he is slain or gets victory - soon shall We give him a reward of great value.”

The cause of Allah is actually Muhammad's will and everyone will fallow what he pleases...

Sura 4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

Sura 66:9: “O Prophet! make war on the infidels and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and wretched the passage to it!”
Another translation says, “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate

“No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir (infidel).”(Hadith vol. 9:50)


I REJECT ISLAM AND I REJECT YOUR FAITH,VIGOROUSLY

In this quote Muhammad refers to the Muslims who have not participated in the confrontation with the Byzantine Christians where Muhammad led a large army of 30,000 soldiers to the northern city of Tabuk. This quote was passed to those who said they believe but refused to help other Muslims out when they needed it the most. This quote is directed to hypocrites, not unbelievers in general.

A Hypocrite in religious terminology is equal to an infidel...He who doesnt submit to Muhammad's will is even worst than an unbeliever.

Sura 9:5: “And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful.”

Why should be even a discussion over the above one????

That quote is dead wrong. I suggest you look it up again.

Here is the actual quote:

[9:25]GOD has granted you victory in many situations. But on the day of Hunayn, you became too proud of your great number. Consequently, it did not help you at all, and the spacious earth became so straitened around you, that you turned around and fled.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden - such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book - until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled." 9: 25

The quote is actually a trick...You know when you ask someone"how many legs the octopus has"???You got the picture and my quote is actually as eye stabbing as it can be...It is actually a Surah just four numbers before this one,that you gloriously "refuted".

Surah 9:29"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Qatiloo allatheena layu/minoona biAllahi wala bialyawmial-akhiri wala yuharrimoona ma harramaAllahu warasooluhu wala yadeenoona deena alhaqqimina allatheena ootoo alkitaba hattayuAAtoo aljizyata AAan yadin wahum saghiroona

People of the book(Jews and Cristians).This is as clear as a Jazz on a summer day...Do not even try your fruitless apologetics with this one...

I wrote this Surah by my self."Dead wrong"??????Cos i presume there isnt something like this anywhere in the "Meditation Encyclopedia the Quran"???.Or of it exists,it is after or before a battle...What else can it be...Battles...Battles and more Battles.Everyone who is interested can go and see by him self Muhammad's "self defense" throughout the Middle East, North Africa, Portugal, Spain, and part of France.
Instead of concentrating on the Surah,you searched the number,which proves
your lack of arguments when something as Imperialistic as this is concerned.

All Hadiths from Ibn-E-Majah to Abdullah ibn Umar I nor any true Muslim should accept. Those words he wrote are all his own understandings and not FROM THE QURAN. This is why I told Poutis a while ago that Islam's biggest enemy might be the ones who are suppose to teach us. But if you have a quote to offer me from the Quran (Gods word which we follow, not Ibn Majah's) then I will more then happily love to explain it to you like I have done with the others.

They are both Prominent Islamistic Authorities,but i wrote lot more disturbing suras contained in the very Quran,then these...And as for Abdullah ibn Umar,he was someone who knew Muhammad personally,so why is that so peculiar and repulsive to you???Certainly you take what you think can be of use and criticize other's who have been Islam's devotees right from it's beginning...Their principles are probably harsh at this point,but they are only "righteous".
You will explain the Quran to me????That isnt a Quantum Physics pal,even a mediocre intellectual standard can understand what it's all about...Oh i forgot,Allah sealed my heart and ears,so that i can not grasp it's universe...


80. "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
81. "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.
Have you seen this one????
So just slay down the desobedient.His mother will not weep for her grown up son.Cos God will give her another and he will guarantee that the next one will be of conduct and disciplined like a muslim.
In the New testament there's the story of the Prodigal son.(i will paraphrase this,not quote the story,but it's like this))His father gave him a huge ammount of gold and set him on a journey in the distant cities to expand their bussiness.This one went and spend all of his money on whores,eating and drinking and gambling.He became a disgrace for his family and everyone in his home town.When he had lost his last gold coin he didnt had anything else to do,so he employed him self to feed the pigs.Which was the most disgracefull job a Jew can have.He couldnt take it any more so embarassed or not he had no choice but to return to his father.He was the definition of the sinner in every meaning of the word.But when his father saw his prodigal son in the distance of the horizon he cried like a little child and ran like a 20 year old to hug his son.He said"give the best clothes and the most expensive rings to my son"because he has returned to me"and they both cried.He had other sons who werent happy to see their prodigal brother.But the Father and the Mother will newer allow their son to be slayed or killed no matter what he has done.
You see.This is why the New Testament is uncomparable with the Quran.Even the Torah contradicts with the new Testament.Moses was a cruel man,not as Muhammed,but he said"eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth"Jesus said the opposite.(Now dont tell me that Jesus was actually a Muslim as some extremist claim.)
This doesnt make you to understand like the Quran does when it speaks of someone slaying a young man because Allah will give another to his father and mother.This just make you Feel.

Quranic verses about killing of disbelievers accepts to only a particular period when the disbelievers had rejected a treaty. It is like generalizing the American army order to kill Vietnamese guerillas for all time to come.

I see this and i wonder,to what extent your naive Islamic apologetics will stretch...
Here's the original:
3. Example of war between America and Vietnam

We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: "Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them". Today if I say that the American President said, "Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them" without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war.

This is utterly Stupid and even an insult to people's intellectual quantum...This idiot is mixing a war conflict with a Dogmatic Religious"revelations from God"holy conquest of the planet by Islam...I mean is this how people find excuses for Aisha,eerrrrr Muhammad's six year old bride????Who's marriage was Consummated???????????????????????????????????????????????????
I mean of course in the 7th Century it was normal a child to be married in his sixth year????Was it????Unless revelations poured down from heaven like rain,every time Muhammad got a boner.

Tabari IX:128 "When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation."

While the fallowing,can be answered quite effortlessly and in a relaxed manner,cos it is not fuzzy at all...

Tabari IX:131 "My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."

But this was probably not a big deal to what's about to happen in Heaven for the Muslims...I am pretty much certain that everyone have seen the "Islamic heaven Swinger parties",so it is a waste of time for me to go over that...Mostly because i will get horny from those Busty Jenna's Jamisons and Tracy Lords clones running naked everywhere around you...While Allah promises to supply young diamond-sparkling beautiful boys for some inhabitants of Islamic heavens. Some deceitful western living mullahs will argue that these boys are there to serve drinks to the pious inhabitants of the heavens and not for having sex by those Beduin homosexual Jihadi Martyrs. They also will argue that Koran did not specify that these Ghilman (young boys) will be used as sex partners by Martyrs,it was not said so in the Quran. Well, Koran also did not specify what those Martyrs/pious Muslims suppose to do with the wide-eyed, firmed, swollen breast, white skinned beautiful houris! Your parent gets you married a beautiful young lady, and parents never say what you suppose to do with your wife, do they? Decietful Mullah’s logic/excuse that these Ghilman could be there as the waiters just to serve drinks and food does not sound right. I don’t think it is the purpose of supplying young boys just to be the waiters. Waiters could be adult person instead of pearl-sparkling everlasting young boys! Is not it folks?
Some of this was a quote actually...

I am ready for a reply, any reply, you name it. Because these is no verse in the Quran which cannot be explained. And I have done that for you if you are truly a person who is willing to look into this. Allah has no plans for what anything should be done to unbelievers except those who have waged wars against his religion. I hope you realize that by the time your done reading this reply.

Ohooho!!!...Of course there is no verse that can not be explained.All religions can be explained...Every single one...I agree with this.Just as you explained in you concise"Lord of the Rings logic"post...It is obvious that you believe with no brakes in you're car.When you switch whatever you name it on automatic,it makes you passive.Manual is for the advanced users.Isnt this option avelable in all aspects of our lives???Even in the computer software,it asks you"do you like to automaticly install the software or you like to manualy do that by you're self."Note"Manual or Custom is only for the advanced users".Always."manual and custom" puts you in the control and no one makes decisiones for you.This is intelligence.People who cant live"manually'they fallow "automatic"philosophies.Their individualism is locked in it self.Individualism is something that Religion condemns above all else.
People who dont really understand human nature and nature in general tell stories.Like the ones with which"holy books"are over encumbered.Which is a consequence and a reaction of nature's unpredictable behavior.Those who do understand the human nature(they have no need to understand mother nature)are part of the stories of these who tell them.Like Mohammed.He realized how naive and superstitious people are and he knew that those stone idols are worthless as well,so using his people's frustration of the lack of relevant holy scriptures and monotheistic religion,he raised him self above all others of his nation.Arabs waited for something like that for their whole lives.For generations.They just didnt have the guts for something like that.It takes guts to make that impact.Mohammed wasnt the only one to acomplish that,there were others.But it takes guts and intelligence to extract the intelligence out of people's minds and make them blind subordinates that will believe and do everything he tell's them to do.The real heroes of their stories should be people who sacrifice their youth so that we can have pennicillin and malaria vaccines,rather then some characters who talk with God and brought to us his word which is as useless to us as they are.
This society needs progress,that's what's all about.When i say that people should have some gain out of everything,i dont mean about their financial status so that they can buy a big house and drive a McLaren GTR.But for the good of this whole civilization.We need to advance and spread and realize that all this trifilic capital of ours will just return us to the stone age,where Religion have remained since it's beginning.I watched a Star Track movie and where they went back in time and Jean Pickard the Captain told to this man"There's no such thing as money in our time,there's no sickness or disease and there's no killing and hatred.This isnt fantasy.It is reachable and it is in our grasp,even our civilization can be like this.I'll tell you what was a fantasy,To give child to a mother that can get pregnant out on her own,that was a fantasy.To send a probe on Mars.To create the Nuclear submarine.To build the A 380 Air Buss that was a fantasy.Not this.
But consciousness cant evolve with people who are burning buildings because they've made a cartoon out of their prophet or because someone wrote a book like Da Vinci Code.Vatikan has 25-30% of all the Real estate in Italy,that is just splendid,and as for the Muslim leaders,they have 100% of everything.Yea,Yea,Religion isnt about that it goes much higher:rolleyes:i know,it goes to those 77 virgins with huge breasts.Every ameba of an intellect can go and do those religious rituals,everyone.They feel important and they feel needed,doing something of significance.The thing is to belong somewhere.Everyone can go and be a religious fanatic,you dont need a Hyper intellect.I really understand that when some individual reads a religious allegory he thinks that he configured something that is esotheric and accesible to the most intelligent(you are not one of them,but you still imagine that they are ment only for the most intelligent).The thing is that even the biggest idiot thinks that he is smart and intelligent.
These allegories are so simple that religious people think that because they've realised their meaning they are pretty intelligent and that makes them feel proud of themselves.This dude played the Fifth Element video game and after he finished that,he came and said to me"Goran this game was lovely i enjoyed,it was tricky ,but i finished it".Fifth Element is the biggest crap of a game ive ever set my eyes on.I gave the "Broken Sword the Sleeping Dragon" to him and he newer said anything about the game ever.
The Science in Religion is obviously the biggest proof that they are bigger ignorants than they think they are...It is so easier to believe than to know.This proves the shameless antics by the Religious fanatics to equate Religion with Science.they have no clue of the world arround them and how nature works,they are not even aware of the chemical,the atomic and the molecular components that compose the air they breathe and when Science makes a breakthrough like the Theory of Relativity or the Antimatter,these useless parasites who are feeding from the science which they curse,will get out of their shells and then they will claim that all that was allready included in to their word of God.While they believe and do nothing,someone else works his whole life by studying the nature and the universe(the true legacy of the Creation),so when he finaly lay down and define the fruit of his life,that the whole world will charish,use and increase the level of the civilization,these will come and without trifles of respect towards that person,without having the slightest idea of that scientific "revelation"for which a brilliant mind sacrificed his whole life,they will make such bogus statements that they had the informations and the origines of that breakthrough in thier holly books.I really dont get how they dont feel ashamed or embarassed.If they really undestood what they were saying,they would surely stay silent for the rest of their lives.Like Toma Akvinski did.Why is it that after everything that's discovered religion claims that it is conected with that,without a single calorie contribution for the discovery that changes the world???They call that knowledge and intelligence????
It explains only that you do not know much more than you think you dont know.
Are there more arrogant people than the religious fanatics???They feel privilidged and saved,that gives them the right to call the unbelievers lost souls and brainless piles of dirt,because they cant understand the elementary school stories contained in their holy books which are copied from all sorts of story collections.If they dont speak like that,then they mean that in every second of their existence.
You despise everyone who doesnt believe in this sinister religion which you call the word of the Creator.You despise the other religions as well,which is the basic codex of Islam.But mostly people like me who wont fallow any religion whatsoever.Religion asks for blind belief.Belief without questioning.It seems that religious fanatics are just compensating their lack of intelligence with belief.I have to be honest with this.We all try to compensate our lack of intelligence with something of substance,but their method is bellow the zero.
Islam exposed their moral values and their sense of justice,but camouflaged and covered the hatred and evil that's lurking from the shadow.
From a religious and traditional aspect muslims are mostly ignoring the exhibitionism,which is a good thing,when compared to the Cristians they are just little kids in that aspect,although that Caaba bizarre ritual and the stoning of the devil makes them look so primitive.But i guess when you have so much financial stability like the Catholic church(and own every second building in Rome),you'd like to make presentations like McLaren the Formula 1 team does of their Car presentation.And what's up with that annoying and awfull sounds that the Head priests are making in the mosques when muslims pray.They allowed this thing in my town just recently and everyone is sick to their stomacks when they hear this yelling on a megaphone.Cant you just pray in silence and leave the world arround you undesturbed???They call for the people to pray???What's the matter,they dont know when to pray???We have clocks...But the thing is that it is about atention.They want people to hear them so they yell like bad opera vocalists.Sometimes the Church rings with it's ridiculous bells,but this is extremely annoying.It seems that egsibitionism is a part of the Islam after all.Every religion wants to show off a little bit.
But why all the muslims arent fullfiling their orders given from Muhammed and the Jihad???Because they are not all evil and they view those twisted requests as mental illness that should be supressed.When i was little in Former Yugoslavia,i listened to people how great country we have.That we are the happiest nation in Europe that Yugoslavia had the Third most powerfull army in the world?!?!?!?That our education and health system is for free.But the truth was that Yugoslavia was 20 years bihind the European union countries.When we went in Greece in 91' that was the first time i saw a CoCa Cola can:confused:I said what the hell is wrong here damn it???Not that a CoCa Cola can will make me happier,but it was completely cut off from the world.We had passports with which you can enter in most of countries for three months.Which people werent using much.But when i recall those times i just realise what i was missing.Yugoslavia lived from the Credits given by the most developed countries.No one sane enough would make a free education and health system,which were crap by the way.And Tito the President for Life was like a God,a lot of people still keep his pictures on their walls.Countries like Croatia and Slovenia were already advanced,i mean Croatia is a heaven on earth it is stationed on 800km of probably the most beautiful sea the Adriatic.They had no reason to drag Macedonia,Bosnia and Montenegro all over their necks.They wanted to leave the federation long time ago,which they did.And now they are uncomparable with Macedonia,Serbia,Boznia and Montenegro.Of course Serbia tried to settle things like they always did,but they got their ass kicked.
And the Eugenics of the Nazzi.They convinced the whole nation that Aryan race is bihind their glorious existance and that the Hebrews,Gipsies and the Slovens are sub races that dont even deserve to exist.They made a whole science for the Aryan race.Archeologists,World Class historians,Biologists were included in to proving of the existence of the Aryan race.The Bosnian people who were Cristian through the Turkish ocupation,under heavy repression and torchure they were religiously assimilated and they've substituted the religion of their grand-grand fathers with another.They are now muslims.People believe everything that they're told through a mass sugestion and heavy repression,together with a financial compensation ofcourse.When someone can believe that Relativity of Time is revealed by the Quran i guess there's no limit to people's belief.
When Religion had the strength and the Law in it's hands it persecuted the ones that refused it's style and blind belief.For the others that believed but who were not quite the believers like the Religion wants them to be,there's hell.From the vision and the concept of Hell you can conclude a lot of things from the psichological aspect of that particular Religion and Islam is without doubt the most perverted and twisted when Hell is concerned.It's not just hell that's twisted in there.It is frustrating to see that now when the religious repression in the western society is no longer present,the Islamic society is getting more and more extreme with religious identification.I just cant believe that they are shooting women with Kalashnikov because they arent quite as a Muslim woman should be.If they dont cover up completely they are Whores.These are not some exceptions.I am taling about the Islamistic states...Who ever attempts to pull his("it is not necessary,i know girls who doesnt wear hijab",well have you been in the countries where Islam is the highest moral imperative????)
My point isnt to make you realise something,but i cant sit and listen how you make Mohammed something which he newer was.How can you make victims of the Muslims when they consider the world mostly like a war zone???Their prophet asks for their lives.There's people who watch TV with their families while a Missile hits their houses and the survivors of these events cant be the way they used to be,but there's millions of muslims who go by their own will to kill innocent people.Those radical islamists who mined the London Metro were English citizens and i doubt that someone hit their house with a missile,or those who hit the World Trade Center.Muslims should realize that Hatred produce hatred and realize that the true threat for muslims isnt the Western society but radical islamists who find their inspiration in the Quran(who by the way is the ultimate knowledge of the Human kind).Muslims should blame Osama for that,many do blame him,but let's be realistic many glorify him as a true muslim and reading the Quran i can see that by my self,he's just doing what the House of Islam want's him to do and what Jihad asks from him.
The Real holy book isnt the Torah,The Vedas,nor the Bible...Neither is Quran...It is Nature...It contains all the substances and secret ingredients,for us to become true masters of our selves...Not these Primitive piles of bullshit............

[SiN]

^ If u expect me to actaully sit down and read that elcino, you are truly mistaken :lol:

[Sebastian]

Saraj Fanático,

That's was one of the best posts from you :).


Its simple, they are trying to REWRITE Koran, as they did BIBLE.......But this will not happend becouse we have original one and they have copy :D.
:D you are quite right about the Bible,but as for your "original"Quran,i bet you tell that every time you go to bed...It shouldnt even be rewritten,it is enough contradictive with it self just as it is now...

[Saraj Fanático]

I will respond tomorrow since right now I don't have the time. But honestly, I am 99% sure you could have said all that in a smaller reply.

[poutismalakas]

:D you are quite right about the Bible,but as for your "original"Quran,i bet you tell that every time you go to bed...It shouldnt even be rewritten,it is enough contradictive with it self just as it is now...

Hey BOTh of you leave the Bible out of this cause what BOTH are saying is JUST as offensive IF NOT more than Muhammed pics!:mad2:

[Wabbit]

[LIST=1]


Its time for America to step out of warn torn regions and back to where they came from. President Bush and his country have not done SHIT about the "War On Terror"

And what have we done??...cause as far as I know America is a continent...:alien:

And I think they r all brainwashed tho...:sad:

[poutismalakas]

OK OK NO more Quran and Bible comparisions!!!

[Sebastian]

I will respond tomorrow since right now I don't have the time. But honestly, I am 99% sure you could have said all that in a smaller reply.

Dont you think they could've wrote the Bible and the Quran in lot shorter versions then they already are???Religion is a vast cosmos,composed out of tales that stretches from here to eternity...Just by quoting something isnt exacly making a strong impression...There's a lot of my own opinion and it could've been quite longer if continued...This is nothing to what i wrote to a Vedic religious individual....

[Sebastian]

Hey BOTh of you leave the Bible out of this cause what BOTH are saying is JUST as offensive IF NOT more than Muhammed pics!:mad2:

I am criticizing Religion in general and at the moment i am at the Islamic"buss stop"...I have even bigger remarks on Christianity and the Bible(which stretches in the Quran quite a bit).The Muslims arent denying the War instincts inspired from the Quran(who ever tries to make a Peaceful manifest out of Iaslam doesnt really understand what it's all about),at least Islam isnt hypocritical...It say it will slay,crucify and smite your head and fingertips and that's what it will do to you if you are in their territory or if your standing in their way while they are in a conquest campaign......Christianity is"turn the other cheek in God we trust" and there goes the Nagasaki and Hiroshima in leptons...:D.But for what it's worth,it is lot more spiritual than Islam...Comparing Muhammad and Jesus is the biggest possible contrast imaginable...

[Saraj Fanático]

eLcino, I am currently replying to your statement and I notice there is some very offensive material in it. I am in for a debate here, I am not here to insult ones belief. I have all the reason now to attack atheism but I choose not to. I suggest you kind of keep it down a little.

Anyways, I will respond to your giant response with a giant one from myself also. So I'll get it in sometime tomorrow or after tomorrow, depends when I am free from work and when I have the time to keep on with the reply.

[valdanito_10]

come on guys, keep it decent!

[Sebastian]

eLcino, I am currently replying to your statement and I notice there is some very offensive material in it. I am in for a debate here, I am not here to insult ones belief. I have all the reason now to attack atheism but I choose not to. I suggest you kind of keep it down a little.

Anyways, I will respond to your giant response with a giant one from myself also. So I'll get it in sometime tomorrow or after tomorrow, depends when I am free from work and when I have the time to keep on with the reply.

I am sarcastic,but i dont insult..Insulting you as a person wont happen.The thing that you equate with your religion is beyond me and i can do nothing about that.Criticizing religion is offensive,just when you try to poke with it's dogmas and static universe you are considered as an insult.Atheism???I am not an atheist and i never was nor will be.Belief is belief and even by questioning that it is considered as insulting...You know..So finish that reply,i am dying to see how will you defend the "Peaceful Islamistic Manifest".I am extremely flexible individual,so i want you to know that whatever you want to say,say it without fearing that you will insult me or stuff like that...

[Saraj Fanático]

Are you sure you aren't Atheist? May I ask what is it you believe in? A religion or individual thought?

I'll have the reply in by another day since there is too much for me to answer for a night, especially after I am home exhausted. But so far, I do not find anything that has really shut me down at all. :) It bares much similarity to your first post. And some of the posts could have all been expressed in 5-10 sentences instead of an page full.

[Saraj Fanático]

Dont you think they could've wrote the Bible and the Quran in lot shorter versions then they already are???Religion is a vast cosmos,composed out of tales that stretches from here to eternity...Just by quoting something isnt exacly making a strong impression...There's a lot of my own opinion and it could've been quite longer if continued...This is nothing to what i wrote to a Vedic religious individual....

You can write day and night to me, I'll come in with a response. But I see you do not mind waiting a while for it.

[Sebastian]

Are you sure you aren't Atheist? May I ask what is it you believe in? A religion or individual thought?

I'll have the reply in by another day since there is too much for me to answer for a night, especially after I am home exhausted. But so far, I do not find anything that has really shut me down at all. :) It bares much similarity to your first post. And some of the posts could have all been expressed in 5-10 sentences instead of an page full.

Expressed in 5-10 sentences???There's material for a whole book actually and that is as concise as it can get.Abstract matters are infinite,there's never enough space to "explain" them,everyone knows that.
Religion is never shut down...Because it doesnt offer anything concrete and exact...It is abstract as hell and religious apologetics can always shift in to another parallel universe in their parables and allegories...That's why they remained for this long.There's always some other esoteric meaning in the Noes Ark,Garden of Eden sex scandal...In Muhammad's revelations(if they arent suited or accepted well,there's always Satan to be blamed :D ).You can give as much arguments as the Emire state building,but the religious concept of"reason" will fight as if it's life is at stake...It is more psychology than anything else.
I wonder why do you insist to perceive Islam as a peaceful religion???
Oh so a person have to believe in something so that he avoids the epithet as an Atheist????That's not like that at all...I dont have to believe in anything.You can believe that you can take your monitor and that when you let go of it it will float in the air,but reality doesnt conform to your beliefs,it will fall every time you release it...Every time.You can polemise,debate,argue and fantasize,pray...But it will be in vain...The existence of the "designer" if i can call that is firmly engraved in our consciousness and it is not question whether it exists,but how it exists...The attempt to define it's reality is the most pathetic in Human civilization than anything else...I "believe" in the