armenian "Genocide"

[aslanlar]

Were the events of 1915-18 in the Ottoman empire a genocide against the armenians or are they just shouting for reperations and land?

What do you think?

[Fenerliyim]

absolutly not, just a sad side effect of the war, no proof watsoever of Ottoman Govt actually giving out commands to kill all armenians. To relocate yes, to massacre no. Many Armenians still live in Istanbul and are doing very well off, u ask them and they'll say no. Even the Armenian Patriach says it didnt happen.

Armenians are just trying to get land and money from turkey, both of which will never happen.

Like Churchill said "Lies will go half way around the world before truth even puts her boots on"

[boris4c]

It is widely acknowledged to have been one of the first modern, systematic genocides,[3][4] as many Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll as evidence for a systematic, organized plan to eliminate the Armenians.[5] The event is also said to be the second-most studied case of genocide after the Holocaust.[6] To date twenty-two countries have officially recognized it as genocide

The United States have also declared just a few days ago that there has been a genocide on the Armenian people.

[poutismalakas]

IT did HAPPEN along with the Assyrians who where killed as well!!! :(

Deny it all you want!

[Fenerliyim]

The united states hasnt declared anything yet, its only gone through at the lowest level, first the house of reps have to vote, if it passes there then the senate votes, and bush will veto it and no way do they have 2/3 of the majority in the senate to get it passed.

the UK, Isreal, and USA have not accepted the genocide. And those probably the top 3 powerful countries in the world.

Anyway y r armenians so keen on having politicians decided on this issue rather than historians?

Bernard Lewis, a professor of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton says it may well be likely that a million Armenians died, but he asserts that there's no evidence that the Turkish government made a "deliberate preconceived decision" to carry out massacres.

The numbers Armenians declare are very ridiculous, the population of armenians were around maybe 1.3 million according to Ottoman, UK, and other countries archives on the other hand they declare 2.5-3.5 million armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire.

How did we kill 1.5 million armenians when there were only 1.3 million? And near 500,000 thousand turks died during the war to hunger and famine, and armenians claim 0 deaths happened because of hunger and famine.

[poutismalakas]

The united states hasnt declared anything yet, its only gone through at the lowest level, first the house of reps have to vote, if it passes there then the senate votes, and bush will veto it and no way do they have 2/3 of the majority in the senate to get it passed.


the UK, Isreal, and USA have not accepted the genocide. And those probably the top 3 powerful countries in the world.
That doesn't mean anything cause Israel needs Turkey and so does the US!

Anyway y r armenians so keen on having politicians decided on this issue rather than historians?
MOST people believed this happened! EVEN Hitler used this as model for the Final Solution!


Bernard Lewis, a professor of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton says it may well be likely that a million Armenians died, but he asserts that there's no evidence that the Turkish government made a "deliberate preconceived decision" to carry out massacres.
Maybe because the records where destroyed after the Turks saw what happened to the Germans atfter WWII??? Or the The Turks refuse to release them!?

The numbers Armenians declare are very ridiculous, the population of armenians were around maybe 1.3 million according to Ottoman, UK, and other countries archives on the other hand they declare 2.5-3.5 million armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire.

How did we kill 1.5 million armenians when there were only 1.3 million? And near 500,000 thousand turks died during the war to hunger and famine, and armenians claim 0 deaths happened because of hunger and famine.

BEcause there was more Armenians than that!

Look what I found

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_population

Armenian population prior to 1878

In 1844 the Ottoman recorded 2.4 million Armenians within the Ottoman Empire. In 1867 this number remained the same. It is not known whether this lack of change was due to a political decision not to record any Armenian growth for a period of 23 year!!!

[poutismalakas]

Face it your people commited things like this 90 years ago!!!

[poutismalakas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adana_massacre

[poutismalakas]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Assyriangenocide2.jpg/287px-Assyriangenocide2.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Assyrianmassacres.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide

[Fenerliyim]

1. Our Archives are wide open, we even proposed a joint research with armenia, but u know wat armenia rejected cause they know they'll find nothing. Yet the armenians Dashnak archives in the US and the archives of the Armenian Patriarch in Jerusalem, they are restricted i.e. only those that have the view of the armenians are allowed in, i wont be suprised if it works the same way in Armenia

2. That population is armenian propaganda shit

here is a list of armenian populations by all groups:

The Armenian author Leart, based on figures Provided by the Patriarchate of Istanbul 2,560,000
The Armenian historian Basmajian 2,380,000
The Armenian National Committee at the Paris Peace conference 2,250,000
The Armenian historian Kevork Aslan 1,800,000
The French Yellow Book 1,555,000
Encyclopedia Britannica 1,500,000
Constenson I, 400,000
Lynch 1,345,000
0fficial Ottoman census statistics for 1914 1,295,000
Annual Register (London) 1,056,000


As u can see the ottomman census of 1.3 million armenians is in the middle of the foriegn sources which range from 1 mil to 1.6. So imo Ottomans generally had the right population.

Also armenians at first claimed 600,000 deaths, later 800,000 and then finally 1.5 million probably be 3 mil soon :lol:


we admit their were deaths but none systamatically planned. Please Poutis or anyone else show me proof where u can see that it was ordered to kill all those armenians, please show me.

[poutismalakas]

1. Our Archives are wide open, we even proposed a joint research with armenia, but u know wat armenia rejected cause they know they'll find nothing. Yet the armenians Dashnak archives in the US and the archives of the Armenian Patriarch in Jerusalem, they are restricted i.e. only those that have the view of the armenians are allowed in, i wont be suprised if it works the same way in Armenia

2. That population is armenian propaganda shit

here is a list of armenian populations by all groups:

The Armenian author Leart, based on figures Provided by the Patriarchate of Istanbul 2,560,000
The Armenian historian Basmajian 2,380,000
The Armenian National Committee at the Paris Peace conference 2,250,000
The Armenian historian Kevork Aslan 1,800,000
The French Yellow Book 1,555,000
Encyclopedia Britannica 1,500,000
Constenson I, 400,000
Lynch 1,345,000
0fficial Ottoman census statistics for 1914 1,295,000
Annual Register (London) 1,056,000


As u can see the ottomman census of 1.3 million armenians is in the middle of the foriegn sources which range from 1 mil to 1.6. So imo Ottomans generally had the right population.

Also armenians at first claimed 600,000 deaths, later 800,000 and then finally 1.5 million probably be 3 mil soon :lol:


we admit their were deaths but none systamatically planned. Please Poutis or anyone else show me proof where u can see that it was ordered to kill all those armenians, please show me.
WHY does the Turks "need Armenians" when they can release their so'called impartial records????

Your People commited genocide! Just like The Serbs who refuse to accept their dark side the Turks do so as well!

[Fenerliyim]

Poutis look at british, american, french sources, then look at ottoman and armenian sources?

Which one is closer to the british,american and french sources, the Ottomans archives or the armenian archives.

Obviously the armenians have overexaggerated by a million

[poutismalakas]

Ok what happened to the Census of 1848 which has the Armenian pop as 2.6 million! I highly doubt the Armenians stop breeding?

[poutismalakas]

Also I never said the admittance should give Armenians a right to land and/or cash!


Also the Armenians in Turkey refuse to say anything or else their jailed for "Insulting Turkishness" :rolleyes:

[Fenerliyim]

Look at present day armenia, the population rate is negative, its just going down. Its called migrating to other countries like france and usa.

And 1848 is about 70 yrs before the war, the Ottoman Empire was declining, we had the Crimean war and Russo-turko war, remember ottoman military was not only made up turks, it was multi-ethnic and armenians made a pretty big part. Also a lot of armenians sided with russia during the russo-turko war as well. Probably a lot of deaths there.

[Fenerliyim]

Also I never said the admittance should give Armenians a right to land and/or cash!


Also the Armenians in Turkey refuse to say anything or else their jailed for "Insulting Turkishness" :rolleyes:


But thats wat they are trying, look at germany, has to compensate so many jewish families.

How come then its crime to deny the armenian genocide in France/switzerland and other countries. You can go to jail in france if u deny it there. Where is the freedom of speech there?

[poutismalakas]

But thats wat they are trying, look at germany, has to compensate so many jewish families.

How come then its crime to deny the armenian genocide in France/switzerland and other countries. You can go to jail in france if u deny it there. Where is the freedom of speech there?
Well that is France for you, They aren't exaclty known for common sense now ;)

Also I disagree with any law thay deny the right to question!!!!

[Carsi_1903]

Armenian genocide is nothing more than the biggest piece of bullshit humnaity has ever heard. First of all, historical documents have shown that an Armenian brigade was under Mustafa Kemal Ataturk..there were actual Armenians FIGHTING WITH THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE!! Yes it is true that some Armenians have died but it the result of migration and/or fighting with Russia, whom incidentally treated the Armenians like they were dogs under USSR. This is nothing more than propaganda on behalf of Armenian nationalists/Nazis to provoke anti-Turkish sentiment and unfortunately they have been successful in brainwashing the dumbass American Democrats to recognize their lie.

[Fry36]

Gotta love how when a country tries to fight off a smaller one and comes out victorious, it's called a genocide because of the number of deaths.

The Holocaust is a genocide. Not a war. Just a genocide.

But if you actually looked at the history of the Armenians and Turks, you'd see that there was WAR going on between them over LAND. Armenians were so eager to push their borders halfway into Turkey, they waited until half of Europe decided to invade us to do it. Sorry a David and Goliath story wasn't repeated in a war to keep a country safe. Maybe we should have called out the 2 strongest soldiers from each army to fight and end the war.

But what can I say...rules change when Turkey is the subject of the story. Why not turn a war into a genocide when you know you'll have loads of supporters from Europe? I mean, Armenia wasn't alone in the 1920s while they were invading Turkey, right? The Greek, the British, The French, Italians, etc all were in it together, weren't they? "Let's call it a genocide, they'll all back us up!"

Since we're all changing the rules of the game, why don't we go ahead and call the war on Iraq a genocide? I mean, the war IS focusing on one nation, one race, right? If you looked at it the same way you looked at the so called Armenian genocide, wouldn't you see some similarities? They're both wars, both with high statistics, both against a country with a questionable government.

But you can't. How dare you accuse USA of a genocide? How dare you put Turkey and America in the same bag?!

But I thought we were changing the rules of the game?

Since we're calling everything a genocide now, I'm gonna start calling the deportations of Mexicans in America a genocide. The American government is causing many deaths because they don't want Mexicans invading their border. And worst of all, it's only aimed at Mexicans. You know why? Because that's who is one the other side of the border. Now let's take a look at Turkey's borders. What's the genocide in question? Armenia. Who's on the other side of the border? Armenia. Who's been invading Turkey to take some extra land on the side? Armenia.

Hmmm...can I call what's being done to Mexicans a genocide now? Or are there not enough people being killed yet? I didn't know a genocide had to have a quota of deaths to be considered a genocide.

"Article 2 of the CPPCG defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and/or] Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.""

Well whaddya know, I guess we can call it a genocide, huh?

Get real, people. If somehow this "genocide" of the Armenians was approved, there would be at least 50 other cases thrown in our faces asking for recognition. Everything from the few Indians thats left asking for justice from America, to the Chinese suing their own government for not letting them have kids freely.

[Pape]

Yes Turks did it, and they are trying to use this opportunity they have over their influence on the US in Iraq to make US denied it never happened so it goes down in history as another false piece of history.

[Fry36]

If the US gave 2 shits about what we had to say, they wouldn't be bullshitting us with the recognition of PKK as a terrorist group. They can't say anything because they know once this "genocide" is called a genocide, there'll be more cases coming and they'll never stop.

Let me ask you this. You said Turks did it. But what is "it?" Is anyone here denying that all those Armenians died? We all know there was a high death toll, but we can't understand how this death toll just happens to rise year after year. Is there still a city in Armenia away from technology and civilization where a group of Armenians and group of Turks are still fighting over land or something?

[poutismalakas]

Get real, people. If somehow this "genocide" of the Armenians was approved, there would be at least 50 other cases thrown in our faces asking for recognition. Everything from the few Indians thats left asking for justice from America, to the Chinese suing their own government for not letting them have kids freely.

Hum how about these my friend!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adana_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgenthau%2C_Sr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Genocide

[Fenerliyim]

near 500,000 muslims died as well, u dont see us calling it a genocide. Yea Armenians killed turks in villages and turks killed them back. WE died of hunger and sickness while armenia claims they had 0 deaths due to famine and hunger. Please tell me how hundreds of thousands of turks die to hunger and famine while 0 armenians end up dieing

[Fenerliyim]

wikipedia is not an official encyclopedia, it can be written by anyone.

[poutismalakas]

look at cited sources buddy also IT DOES say Armenians died due to starvation along with the Assyrians!

[Fry36]

I don't know why you're still bringing up Wiki links. I could go there and change everything the way I see fit, and by the time they "dispute the accuracy" of the sources, it'll take 10 of these threads to die down.

The fact of the matter is, this is not being ruled as a genocide. The reason is simple, because it doesn't meet the criteria of a genocide. You can't call every dark event in a nation's history a genocide. The only reason why the hypothetical examples I mentioned aren't on Wikipedia is because the Armenian Genocide isn't officially seen as a genocide (for good reasons). I assure you, if one day this so called genocide is ruled as a genocide, there will be 50+ "The X Genocide" articles popping up on Wikipedia, where X represents the nation/ethnic group/group of people who think the definition of a genocide has finally been adjusted to the way they can fit their historical events in.

[Pape]

go to the refrences on the bottom of those wiki pages and they will say the same things as the articles except they are books, more credible sources, etc...

[Fenerliyim]

yea armenian sources, we can definetly trust them. :rolleyes:

[poutismalakas]

yea armenian sources, we can definetly trust them. :rolleyes:
And We can trust the Turk's?:rolleyes:

how about this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehcir_Law

[FK SARAJEVO]

where is the genocide confirmation of muslims killed:

Palestine
Bosnia
Chechniya
Iraq
Afghanistan
Kashmir
Dagestan

???

my turkish bros, screw the west and what they think. If they are going to igrone our suffering than we should ignore thiers.

[poutismalakas]

where is the genocide confirmation of muslims killed:

Palestine
Bosnia
Chechniya
Iraq
Afghanistan
Kashmir
Dagestan

???

my turkish bros, screw the west and what they think. If they are going to igrone our suffering than we should ignore thiers.
So it is ok to look at yourselves then huh? I have never denied anything!

[Fenerliyim]

And We can trust the Turk's?:rolleyes:

how about this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehcir_Law

just look at the top of the page, it tells u enough. Ridiculous

[el Turco]

Gotta love how when a country tries to fight off a smaller one and comes out victorious, it's called a genocide because of the number of deaths.

The Holocaust is a genocide. Not a war. Just a genocide.

But if you actually looked at the history of the Armenians and Turks, you'd see that there was WAR going on between them over LAND. Armenians were so eager to push their borders halfway into Turkey, they waited until half of Europe decided to invade us to do it. Sorry a David and Goliath story wasn't repeated in a war to keep a country safe. Maybe we should have called out the 2 strongest soldiers from each army to fight and end the war.

But what can I say...rules change when Turkey is the subject of the story. Why not turn a war into a genocide when you know you'll have loads of supporters from Europe? I mean, Armenia wasn't alone in the 1920s while they were invading Turkey, right? The Greek, the British, The French, Italians, etc all were in it together, weren't they? "Let's call it a genocide, they'll all back us up!"

Since we're all changing the rules of the game, why don't we go ahead and call the war on Iraq a genocide? I mean, the war IS focusing on one nation, one race, right? If you looked at it the same way you looked at the so called Armenian genocide, wouldn't you see some similarities? They're both wars, both with high statistics, both against a country with a questionable government.

But you can't. How dare you accuse USA of a genocide? How dare you put Turkey and America in the same bag?!

But I thought we were changing the rules of the game?

Since we're calling everything a genocide now, I'm gonna start calling the deportations of Mexicans in America a genocide. The American government is causing many deaths because they don't want Mexicans invading their border. And worst of all, it's only aimed at Mexicans. You know why? Because that's who is one the other side of the border. Now let's take a look at Turkey's borders. What's the genocide in question? Armenia. Who's on the other side of the border? Armenia. Who's been invading Turkey to take some extra land on the side? Armenia.

Hmmm...can I call what's being done to Mexicans a genocide now? Or are there not enough people being killed yet? I didn't know a genocide had to have a quota of deaths to be considered a genocide.

"Article 2 of the CPPCG defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and/or] Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.""

Well whaddya know, I guess we can call it a genocide, huh?

Get real, people. If somehow this "genocide" of the Armenians was approved, there would be at least 50 other cases thrown in our faces asking for recognition. Everything from the few Indians thats left asking for justice from America, to the Chinese suing their own government for not letting them have kids freely.

:thumbsup:

Ottoman Empire did order to relocate Armenians from west to east, because they knew that Armenians would team up with their Greek buddies to take over Anatolia.

When the relocation was taking place, Armenians started not obeying orders, and joined to Russians in Easter Turkey. And then two sides started fighting with each other. People from both nations died. But dont get i, it's all about lobbying.

where is the genocide confirmation of muslims killed:

Palestine
Bosnia
Chechniya
Iraq
Afghanistan
Kashmir
Dagestan

???

my turkish bros, screw the west and what they think. If they are going to igrone our suffering than we should ignore thiers.

Exactly, take a look at these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmlLKujx_2o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0Fh26pQ6LI


Look at what happened in Srebsenica in near past.

[poutismalakas]

here a better one for you

Lochner, Louis P.What About Germany? Dodd, Mead & Company, 1942 pp. 11–2.

Hitler said this!
I have issued the command — and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?

[poutismalakas]

just look at the top of the page, it tells u enough. Ridiculous
Yeah because Turks and Turkophilies tried or are trying to get it deleted!

[Fenerliyim]

haha lol, yea hitler said it, must be true. He also said jews needed to be exterminated, shall we do that as well?

Ottoman Empire has been one of the most accepting empires in history, we accepted everybody for their religion or race. We let the jews come in from spain when they were being executed, its a big reason y jews today have a softspot for us. Yea u guys payed a tax, but compared to just killing u, that must have not been too bad. Ottoman Empire would not have lasted that long if they did not live in peace together.

If the Ottomans wanted to wipe the greeks, armenians, assyrians off the face of the earth, we woulda done it.

[Fenerliyim]

Yeah because Turks and Turkophilies tried or are trying to get it deleted!

no, its more cause armenians are trying to change certain things to make it look like everything fits together

[Fenerliyim]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21253084/

look at the poll results

[Fry36]

here a better one for you

Lochner, Louis P.What About Germany? Dodd, Mead & Company, 1942 pp. 11–2.

Hitler said this!
I have issued the command — and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?
I think not having anything to say in this topic is better than quoting HITLER of all people to support your points. What were you thinking? That everyone would just go "Oh, Hitler's saying that? Then it must be true. Ok, there is a genocide. After all, Hitler, the master of genocides confirms it!" All you're confirming is Hitler being a sick freak who did everything in his might to make his perverted schemes acceptable to the public. Great job, nobody knew that till you just pointed it out...

[())__Green__))>]

i knew this guy he is Armenian.. and he knows i am bosnian but he hates Turkey soooo much.. he cant stand them
and he also knows that i like turkey for everything that they did for us in the war..
moreover, he always talks about the Genocide and how he hates Turkey but he eats Turkish food like no tomorrow!
cant stay mad at turkish food.. its too good lmao! :)

[Panathinaikos2]

An interview published on August 1, 1926 in The Los Angeles Examiner.

Kemal Ataturk Admits Reality
of the
Armenian Genocide in a 1926 Interview

In June 1926 a group of disgruntled Turks, headed by a certain Ziya Hurshid, planned to assassinate the “father of the Turkish Republic,” Mustapha Kemal. In mid_June, Kemal was scheduled to visit Izmir after an extended tour of the country. The plotters secretly assembled in that city and finalized their plan to the minutest detail. The plot was given away by one of the conspirators, and almost all of them were arrested, tried and punished. Kemal arrived in Izmir and personally took charge of the arrests. He himself interrogated a few of the prisoners, who were his former friends. The infamous Independence Tribunal was summoned from Ankara, and at the conclusion of the mock trial, fifteen conspirators were sentenced to death. Those who belonged to the former Union and Progress (Ittihad ve Terakki) Party of the Young Turks, were later tried in Ankara, found guilty and executed.

In July of the same year, a Swiss journalist, Emile Hilderbrand, interviewed Kemal, who openly blamed the Young Turks for the massacre of “millions of our Christian subjects.” The interview originally appeared in the August 1, 1926 issue of the Los Angeles Examiner. This newspaper interview is an important document, since, in the ninth paragraph, Kemal Ataturk admits the reality of the Armenian Genocide.

The text below is corrected and reprinted from the Armenian Mirror-Spectator, March 16, 1985.


Kemal Promises More Hangings
of Political Antagonists in Turkey

I shall not stop until every guilty person, no matter how high his rank, has been hung from the gallows as a grim warning to all incipient plotters against the security of the Turkish Republic. Since the very hour of its reincarnation in the rejuvenated body of the Republic, our nation has endured travails no other nation has ever experienced.

When we were fighting external enemies, or enemies whom we were certain were sympathetic with foreign intriguers, nearly all of the rank and file of our population were enthusiastically, even fanatically, united to deliver the nation from the multiple foreign yokes. But no sooner had the nation proved its worth to its foreign detractors than certain elements, bred in the old school of political intrigue, began to show their claws. We were face to face with a menace to the life of the republic from two elements.

One was the group who combined religious fanaticism and ignorance with political imbecility and who, in the past, under different Sultans had come to believe that the state was an organism to be exploited through debauchery, corruption and brazen bribery for personal ends. I put the ax in the dual root of this sinister and reprehensible theory of government by destroying the Khalif and the Sultan. I sent into exile the persons in whom this theory was personified. Large numbers, adherents of this school of politics, attempted to interpret any act as atheistic, and, under the aegis of religion, began to intrigue against the life of the republic.


Sixty Leaders Hang at Dawn

In several instances in the past when, in Kurdistan and other interior regions of Anatolia, they showed a disposition to challenge the will of the republic, I crushed them with an iron hand, and for example, had over sixty of their leaders hanged at dawn.

That element had its lesson and will not again attempt to measure swords with 'me.

The second element, I am now about to deal with ruthlessly, is the group of men who in the pre_republic days were known in the world as the Committee of the Union of the Young Turks. The ranks of this element were recruited from a questionable assortment of political adventurers, half_educated progressives and men of dissolute habits. In the days when we were battling against foes from within and without, this element joined us and fought in our ranks. Yet from the early days I had misgivings as to their motives. But I wished, hoped and then prayed that once our country was redeemed from the foreign yoke, this element would mend its methods and become infused with the seal of patriotism. I soon began to realize that my hopes were doomed to be disillusioned and my prayers were [not] to be answered. I patiently waited, keeping a sharp eye on their movements.


Seditious Movements Cloaked

They formed themselves into a political opposition. I do not pretend to be a dictator, bent to suppress sincere and honest political opposition, because a republic is a misnomer when it ceases to brook criticism. But when a group of dissolute, corrupt and unscrupulous political adventurers begin to organize seditious movements under the cloak of political opposition, it becomes the sacred duty of those who are in charge of the machinery of the government to suppress it and suppress it with an exemplary ruthlessness that will prevent the eventual shedding of rivers of blood.

I am about to show these plotters that the Republic of Turkey cannot be overthrown by murderers or through their murderous designs...

These left_overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the republican rule. They have hitherto lived on plunder, robbery and bribery and become inimical to any idea, or suggestion to enlist in useful labor and earn their living by the honest sweat of their brow.

Under the cloak of the opposition party, this element, who forced our country into the Great
War against the will of the people, who caused the shedding of rivers of blood of the Turkish
youth to satisfy the criminal ambition of Enver Pasha, has, in a cowardly fashion, intrigued against my life, as well as the lives of the members of my cabinet.

I would have more respect for them had they planned an armed revolution, taking the field in a manly fashion, to overthrow my government. But being conscious of the fact that they could
not muster out even one regiment to give battle to the zealous adherents to, and upholders of, the glorious republic, they have resorted to beastial methods of assassination. They have hired murderers and even debauched women to commit their murderous acts.

In the middle of June last I had planned to make a tour of the country. My itinerary was published. A group of these assassins, placed on the route of procession, were to “rain” hand grenades at the automobiles which were to carry me and my staff.

They went even further and seduced a woman who had been for years identified with my cause and who had been my loyal political friend and on occasion, even adviser. They induced this woman to accept the reprehensible assignment to present me with a bouquet which concealed a bomb that would, on my receiving it, explode and obliterate everyone in sight. This ill_advised woman deserves pity, for she was made to believe that she would thus sacrifice her own life for the good of the fatherland. I was the enemy of the nation. She will be forgiven for her part in the plot, for she conscience_stricken, confessed to the proper authorities in time for me to cancel my intended tour.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/7758/

[Pape]

where is the genocide confirmation of muslims killed:

Palestine
Bosnia
Chechniya
Iraq
Afghanistan
Kashmir
Dagestan

???

my turkish bros, screw the west and what they think. If they are going to igrone our suffering than we should ignore thiers.

arent you the little bitch that keeps going around crying about how the Serbs commited thousands of genocides in the Bosnia? shame on you mother f*cker

[Fenerliyim]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,302497,00.html


looks like its gonna be pulled back again, haha stupid armenians they'll never get that bill passed. They been trying since like mid 1900s

[Pape]

So even if they know its a genocide they wont say it because it will hurt them somewhere. What has the world come to, its so funny to see you laughing at people who lost their loved ones and you come and bullshit in other genocide threads for justice. People like that deserve to be punished.

[el Turco]

arent you the little bitch that keeps going around crying about how the Serbs commited thousands of genocides in the Bosnia? shame on you mother f*cker

What has the world come to, its so funny to see you laughing at people who lost their loved ones and you come and bullshit in other genocide threads for justice. People like that deserve to be punished.

:rolleyes:

[Pape]

kid you got tanks and guns representing turkey on a soccer forum dont even think about hitting the post reply button especially in this thread

[Fenerliyim]

that picture is in memory of the 13 soldiers who died last week in a terrorist attack.

[Saraj Fanático]

arent you the little bitch that keeps going around crying about how the Serbs commited thousands of genocides in the Bosnia? shame on you mother f*cker


What a mature way to respond. :rolleyes:

[el Turco]

What a mature way to respond. :rolleyes:

and he is calling me the kid. :rolleyes:

[aslanlar]

Ok well i skipped page 2 and 3 cuz they look pretty stupid.
Let me just say, poutis, you are ***king stupid. If not, highly uneducated on the topic of the armenian genocide.
You can't honestly use wikipedia as a credible source, or were u joking? I'm confused.

Cencus of armenians in the Ottoman Empire is 1.5 million, that is fact.
Number of armenians living in armenia (for the short period in which it existed) right after WW1 = 0.5million. Therefore, there were less then 1million armenian deaths. (Simple math, try it if u can)

Relocation was just that, not deportation, and thus the Ottoman government was not 'Turkifying' Turkey. We moved them away from Russia and in a stable Ottoman territory (Syria). Where else would u propose, somewhere where there are a lot of Turks? Or just keep them where they are continuing to fight the Turks alongside the Russians?

19th century. Ravaged with war over the disintegration of the Ottoman empire. Russia was seeking to capatalize on this, and the only reason they didn't take Istanbul was because of Brittish help in the crimean war (they wouldn't let Russia get too strong). Instead, throughout the century, Russia fueled nationalistic propoganda within the baltic states, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, and supported them in their bid for independance of the ottoman empire. The same thing happened with the armenians.

In the 1870-80's, Armenian revolutionary political parties were formed, including the Dashnaks and Hunchaks (if i'm not mistaken, the dashnaks assasinated Enver Pasha?) Along with bombing many buildings, they activly faught for self-determination, away from the Ottoman government. Throughout 1894-96 there was widespread uprisings within Turkey. These were quite ruthlessly put down by the Ottoman army (though what can u expect, they are, in effect, attacking us for land from within) and 100 to 200 thousand armenians were killed here.

Come 1914, the Ottoman government, which is bankrupt, starving, and is fighting with almost completely German weapons and with German commanders now has to start a war on 3 major fronts. We are fighitng for the survival of Turkey in istanbul with the ANZACs, the arab uprisings in the south-east-fuelled with British support (they wanted the mandates, as we can see is exactly what happened after ww1). In the north east we were completely humiliated. Battle after battle, Russia was defeating us. There are literally thousands of applications of armenains joining up with the Russian army, (just think the no. which joined unofficially). The area, was quite clearly, a war-plain.

Burning down complete villages, and sometimes 'boiling babies alive' (***king savage, i can't imagine it), they were trying to create a more ethnic armenia (WHICH IS EXACTLY WAHT THEY DID IN THE 1990'S!). They appealed to the US for 70 thousand troops and enough money to start their own country (showing clear intent on taking our land), this was called Wilsonian Armenia (after the president Woodrow Wilson). During the relocation to Syria, we had Turkish and Kurdish bandits attacked the armenians, however these were not from the Ottoman government. Our conscripts (as our main army was fighitng in the west) had many ppl from the east of Turkey, directly where they had suffered in the hands of the Armenians. They purposelly shot dead 3-5 thousand armenians. EVERY ONE OF THESE SOLDIERS WERE SENTENCED TO DEATH BY THE OTTOMAN GOVERNMENT UNDER NO FOREIGN PRESSURE TO DO SO! (there weren't that many soldiers who did that though)
There was also a large armenian diaspora, which pressured Britain to try the Turks. Over 300 Ottoman officials were sent to Malta for 30 months after the war, with the Archives in Istanbul under Brittish control. Britain could find nothing, and +300 Turks were set free.

Now the armenian number dead, in my oppinion (and looking at the amount of sources i have, i would make a bet that i am the most accurate here) 700 thousand armenians perished. But do not think 700thousand were murdered, as most (over half) died through to poverty and or disease, which was widespread and common all over Turkey at the time. Muslim (mainly Turkish and Kurdish) deaths FROM MURDERS were up to 500 thousand.

So what do the Armenians keep sourcing to 'prove' the genocide? US embassador in Turkey at the time, Henry Morgenthoua was appalled at the situation. However, with a man that high up, he hardly left his office, so who reported to him? Believe it or not, Armenians were reporting to him! :O Not to mention, his Memoirs were edited by an armenian.

ok, that's a pretty quick summary, if u want to debate anything with me, atleast do so in a manner that is presentable not, "u are Turkish, u are gay!"

There we go.

[aslanlar]

Regarding Hitlers quote:

PBS's "The Great War" program, for example, reported the quote as: "Who remembers the Armenian massacres today." Below, you'll find Professor Gerard Weinberg's example, "Who today remembers the Armenian extermination?" Then there is the more customary, “Who, after all, speaks today of the extermination of the Armenians?”

If Hitler made such a quote, I feel it should at least be quoted the way he was supposed to have said it

This quote grabbed first major attention in the November 24, 1945 issue of The Times of London, (after debuting in a 1942 book, as you will read below) basing its attribution to Hitler in an address given by him on August 22, 1939. Officers of the Nuremberg Tribunal located the speeches’ original minutes, as an attempt was made to insert the quote into the proceedings; these were admitted as evidence, and nowhere was there
mention of Armenians.

What does this mean, THERE IS NO PROOF THAT HITLER HAD EVER SAID THAT. Furthermore, what does it matter if he said it, he wasn't a historian. If you believe in everythin Hitler says, u believe it's ok to kill Jews?

This is a pretty pathetic attempt for armenians to try to draw a similarity between the holocaust and the armenian 'genocide'.



NAZI ARMENIA
In early 1930s, when Hitler ascended to power, he began cultivating the Armenians to use their long-standing and strong anti-semitic feelings in his plans and policy. The Armenians, through their publications, radio broadcasts and meetings supported and cheered the Nazis on their attacks on Jews. Alfred Rosenberg, who was to become later Hitler's Minister of the Occupied Territories, declared that the Armenians were Indo-European, or Aryans, which honored them and put them in the same league with the Nazis. In Hitler's foreign policy the Armenians fitted very nicely too. Hitler's future invasion plans of Russia provided a golden opportunity for the Armenians to liberate what they considered to be "Historic Armenia" from the Soviet as well as the Turkish rule.

Altogether 30,000 Nazi Armenians served in various units in
the German Wehrmacht, according to Ara J. Berkian. 14,000
in predominantly Armenian army units, 6,000 in German army
units, 8,000 in various working units and 2,000 in the
Waffen-SS

WOW WHAT DO WE SEE HERE, pretty amusing i must say so.

[aslanlar]

An interview published on August 1, 1926 in The Los Angeles Examiner.

Kemal Ataturk Admits Reality
of the
Armenian Genocide in a 1926 Interview

In June 1926 a group of disgruntled Turks, headed by a certain Ziya Hurshid, planned to assassinate the “father of the Turkish Republic,” Mustapha Kemal. In mid_June, Kemal was scheduled to visit Izmir after an extended tour of the country. The plotters secretly assembled in that city and finalized their plan to the minutest detail. The plot was given away by one of the conspirators, and almost all of them were arrested, tried and punished. Kemal arrived in Izmir and personally took charge of the arrests. He himself interrogated a few of the prisoners, who were his former friends. The infamous Independence Tribunal was summoned from Ankara, and at the conclusion of the mock trial, fifteen conspirators were sentenced to death. Those who belonged to the former Union and Progress (Ittihad ve Terakki) Party of the Young Turks, were later tried in Ankara, found guilty and executed.

In July of the same year, a Swiss journalist, Emile Hilderbrand, interviewed Kemal, who openly blamed the Young Turks for the massacre of “millions of our Christian subjects.” The interview originally appeared in the August 1, 1926 issue of the Los Angeles Examiner. This newspaper interview is an important document, since, in the ninth paragraph, Kemal Ataturk admits the reality of the Armenian Genocide.

The text below is corrected and reprinted from the Armenian Mirror-Spectator, March 16, 1985.


Kemal Promises More Hangings
of Political Antagonists in Turkey

I shall not stop until every guilty person, no matter how high his rank, has been hung from the gallows as a grim warning to all incipient plotters against the security of the Turkish Republic. Since the very hour of its reincarnation in the rejuvenated body of the Republic, our nation has endured travails no other nation has ever experienced.

When we were fighting external enemies, or enemies whom we were certain were sympathetic with foreign intriguers, nearly all of the rank and file of our population were enthusiastically, even fanatically, united to deliver the nation from the multiple foreign yokes. But no sooner had the nation proved its worth to its foreign detractors than certain elements, bred in the old school of political intrigue, began to show their claws. We were face to face with a menace to the life of the republic from two elements.

One was the group who combined religious fanaticism and ignorance with political imbecility and who, in the past, under different Sultans had come to believe that the state was an organism to be exploited through debauchery, corruption and brazen bribery for personal ends. I put the ax in the dual root of this sinister and reprehensible theory of government by destroying the Khalif and the Sultan. I sent into exile the persons in whom this theory was personified. Large numbers, adherents of this school of politics, attempted to interpret any act as atheistic, and, under the aegis of religion, began to intrigue against the life of the republic.


Sixty Leaders Hang at Dawn

In several instances in the past when, in Kurdistan and other interior regions of Anatolia, they showed a disposition to challenge the will of the republic, I crushed them with an iron hand, and for example, had over sixty of their leaders hanged at dawn.

That element had its lesson and will not again attempt to measure swords with 'me.

The second element, I am now about to deal with ruthlessly, is the group of men who in the pre_republic days were known in the world as the Committee of the Union of the Young Turks. The ranks of this element were recruited from a questionable assortment of political adventurers, half_educated progressives and men of dissolute habits. In the days when we were battling against foes from within and without, this element joined us and fought in our ranks. Yet from the early days I had misgivings as to their motives. But I wished, hoped and then prayed that once our country was redeemed from the foreign yoke, this element would mend its methods and become infused with the seal of patriotism. I soon began to realize that my hopes were doomed to be disillusioned and my prayers were [not] to be answered. I patiently waited, keeping a sharp eye on their movements.


Seditious Movements Cloaked

They formed themselves into a political opposition. I do not pretend to be a dictator, bent to suppress sincere and honest political opposition, because a republic is a misnomer when it ceases to brook criticism. But when a group of dissolute, corrupt and unscrupulous political adventurers begin to organize seditious movements under the cloak of political opposition, it becomes the sacred duty of those who are in charge of the machinery of the government to suppress it and suppress it with an exemplary ruthlessness that will prevent the eventual shedding of rivers of blood.

I am about to show these plotters that the Republic of Turkey cannot be overthrown by murderers or through their murderous designs...

These left_overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the republican rule. They have hitherto lived on plunder, robbery and bribery and become inimical to any idea, or suggestion to enlist in useful labor and earn their living by the honest sweat of their brow.

Under the cloak of the opposition party, this element, who forced our country into the Great
War against the will of the people, who caused the shedding of rivers of blood of the Turkish
youth to satisfy the criminal ambition of Enver Pasha, has, in a cowardly fashion, intrigued against my life, as well as the lives of the members of my cabinet.

I would have more respect for them had they planned an armed revolution, taking the field in a manly fashion, to overthrow my government. But being conscious of the fact that they could
not muster out even one regiment to give battle to the zealous adherents to, and upholders of, the glorious republic, they have resorted to beastial methods of assassination. They have hired murderers and even debauched women to commit their murderous acts.

In the middle of June last I had planned to make a tour of the country. My itinerary was published. A group of these assassins, placed on the route of procession, were to “rain” hand grenades at the automobiles which were to carry me and my staff.

They went even further and seduced a woman who had been for years identified with my cause and who had been my loyal political friend and on occasion, even adviser. They induced this woman to accept the reprehensible assignment to present me with a bouquet which concealed a bomb that would, on my receiving it, explode and obliterate everyone in sight. This ill_advised woman deserves pity, for she was made to believe that she would thus sacrifice her own life for the good of the fatherland. I was the enemy of the nation. She will be forgiven for her part in the plot, for she conscience_stricken, confessed to the proper authorities in time for me to cancel my intended tour.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/7758/

Where does he say genocide occured? Mass killings did happen, and according to Ataturk, they were 'pointless'. Now let's asses why he would say such a thing. Could it be because he is against the Ottoman Empire, and the rule of sultans (as he explicitly states within the speach). The 'Young Turk' movement did the same thing? Why? Because it undermines the authority of the Ottoman Empire.

[Saraj Fanático]

This Aslanlar guy lives for politics. Don't test him in Turkish politics is my advice. :lol: My man just wrecked this entire thread.

[aslanlar]

Hahaha, thank you :D

Note, in the 1894-96 Hamidian Massacres, although it's 100-200thousand armenian deaths, a Turkish primary source states 20 thousand (ok, it's likely to be bias), another primary source from which country i'm not sure, stated 42 thousand and a british primary source stated 89thousand. It's likely to be between them, but for convntional purposes, i'll say 100thousand..

[Cihangir]

Lol Not one "christian" fail to defend Armenia. What the ***k do you know man. All you can or all we can do is shut the ***K up when there is not one ***king single "DIRECT" evidence for a genocide.

No one can deny that there were killings. If we are to accept "Armenian genocide" they must accept the Turkish genocide that they have commited with the Russians.
And there should be an exchange of official apologies between Greece and Turkey that they both commited genocies against each other's people.
Serbs and Bulgarians should officialy apologize to Turkey for Balkan killings which damaged Ottoman Empire's population by 20%.

Let's all know what the ***k we are talking about and give up the newspaper headlines which are clearly provocations of the west.

[Cihangir]

Aslanlar is absolutely right against Pana because Turkey is politically not the succeeder of the Ottoman Empire and we are not the ones to address. Turks do not deny the mass killings. It was WWI for god's sake!
But there is no direct, solid and unavoidable proof that there is a G E N O C I D E.

[SiN]

Thank-god some people know what they are on about here :D

[aslanlar]

It's a lot easier to defend your country then just to shout at other countries and then when asked for proof, not replying ;) Glad the Turks are backin me up on this 1 :D

[Fry36]

Wow you pretty much handled the thread all by yourself. Lol I wrote all them paragraphs for nothing, you should have came in earlier. :D

[SiN]

I would back my people, and my country up anytime, anyday. :)

[Reazzurro90]

To continue denying the Armenian genocide is ridiculous, and crazy. The evidence is overwhelming, not a sensible person in the world would really deny it after seeing all the evidence.

Turkey should just accept it and apologize for it. No one has the right to judge the actions that happened then - neither Greeks nor anyone else - but it's good to admit that this occurred. Nazi Germany confessed to the holocaust, and modern Germany is a respected country world-wide. No one holds the holocaust against them (or at least any normal person).

Turkey should just apologize, and we should all get on with civilization. There's not even much compensation Turkey should (or even could) do...

[Fenerliyim]

show us the evidence then


o wait wat evidence

[Toke-E-Yo]

War is not between two sides set against each other. It is against their peoples as well; and unfortunately innocent people get killed in these disputes. that is WAR

[Fenerliyim]

Ur choice in the poll doesnt match ur definition. If its a side effect of war of innocent people dying then technically its not genocide. U can call it collateral damage to a certain extent.

[aslanlar]

Reazzurro, did u even read my posts last page? If you did, it's quite clearly not genocide, knowing the intentions of the major powers, and the minorities of the time.
Would you call the 1848 Hungarian uprising a genocide by the Habsburgs and Russians? Of corse not!

Again, if you are to make such a ridiculous statemnt, prove why. Surely, if it's so clear that it's genocide, resources should be abundance.
Just note, wikipedia or pro-armenian site which include the words "***k Turkey" on their page doesn't count as objective. So show me why you would think it's genocide. Or are you just another retard that 'goes with the flow' and knows its genocide but is too lazy to read a single book about it?

[Carsi_1903]

Lol Not one "christian" fail to defend Armenia. What the ***k do you know man. All you can or all we can do is shut the ***K up when there is not one ***king single "DIRECT" evidence for a genocide.

No one can deny that there were killings. If we are to accept "Armenian genocide" they must accept the Turkish genocide that they have commited with the Russians.
And there should be an exchange of official apologies between Greece and Turkey that they both commited genocies against each other's people.
Serbs and Bulgarians should officialy apologize to Turkey for Balkan killings which damaged Ottoman Empire's population by 20%.

Let's all know what the ***k we are talking about and give up the newspaper headlines which are clearly provocations of the west.

Couldnt have put it better myself

[Cihangir]

To continue denying the Armenian genocide is ridiculous, and crazy. The evidence is overwhelming, not a sensible person in the world would really deny it after seeing all the evidence.

Turkey should just accept it and apologize for it. No one has the right to judge the actions that happened then - neither Greeks nor anyone else - but it's good to admit that this occurred. Nazi Germany confessed to the holocaust, and modern Germany is a respected country world-wide. No one holds the holocaust against them (or at least any normal person).

Turkey should just apologize, and we should all get on with civilization. There's not even much compensation Turkey should (or even could) do...

Lol you clearly are a beginner for this issue. I would be the happiest man on earth if they came up with EVIDENCE to make us BELIEVE and APOLOGIZE then move the ***k on. Problem is, there is no evidence, just propaganda material. Pictures, grandma stories all that bullshit that Turkish side also has.

It does not matter if the "democratic france" and "free usa" accepts it by ignoring their "founding principles". It is not SCIENTIFICALLY proven and that's all there is. The rest is dirty politics.

[aslanlar]

Hahahah, a funny note. Like half of the pictures that are used on youtube 'armenian genocide' videos are actually Turkish corpses after the armenians attacked Turkish villages. Some of them are even proven fakes. So these pictures are not exactly 'proof' either, unless you know what you're looking at.

[Fenerliyim]

Many armenian graves have also turned out to be mass turkish graves, or sometimes even just gold/jewelry etc...

[Cihangir]

Anyone watched the Sarı Gelin documentry?
It's a good one and tho it's a Turkish production, it's pretty objective, you get Armenian priests accusing Turkey, some saying that there was a genocide some do not accept it. It's a good one. Anyways, all that killing techniques and grave talking made me remember a "grandpa story" which was on that documentry.
A Turkish guy, Sırrı Hüseyinoğlu in that 1986 dated footage (by the time the incident happened, he says he was 19) claims that Armenian soldiers would take some Turkish men into a room and then get a cow, wrap it up with quilt&sheets and pour oil on it and burn it then force the poor animal into the room. The result is a horrifying death as you can imagine. This is mind-blowing. Watch the guy's reaction as he tells this story. He barely finishes it.

The part i'm talking about starts at 2.55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrFA-lsgIhM

[Panathinaikos2]

An interview published on August 1, 1926 in The Los Angeles Examiner.

Kemal Ataturk Admits Reality
of the
Armenian Genocide in a 1926 Interview

In June 1926 a group of disgruntled Turks, headed by a certain Ziya Hurshid, planned to assassinate the “father of the Turkish Republic,” Mustapha Kemal. In mid_June, Kemal was scheduled to visit Izmir after an extended tour of the country. The plotters secretly assembled in that city and finalized their plan to the minutest detail. The plot was given away by one of the conspirators, and almost all of them were arrested, tried and punished. Kemal arrived in Izmir and personally took charge of the arrests. He himself interrogated a few of the prisoners, who were his former friends. The infamous Independence Tribunal was summoned from Ankara, and at the conclusion of the mock trial, fifteen conspirators were sentenced to death. Those who belonged to the former Union and Progress (Ittihad ve Terakki) Party of the Young Turks, were later tried in Ankara, found guilty and executed.

In July of the same year, a Swiss journalist, Emile Hilderbrand, interviewed Kemal, who openly blamed the Young Turks for the massacre of “millions of our Christian subjects.” The interview originally appeared in the August 1, 1926 issue of the Los Angeles Examiner. This newspaper interview is an important document, since, in the ninth paragraph, Kemal Ataturk admits the reality of the Armenian Genocide.

The text below is corrected and reprinted from the Armenian Mirror-Spectator, March 16, 1985.


Kemal Promises More Hangings
of Political Antagonists in Turkey

I shall not stop until every guilty person, no matter how high his rank, has been hung from the gallows as a grim warning to all incipient plotters against the security of the Turkish Republic. Since the very hour of its reincarnation in the rejuvenated body of the Republic, our nation has endured travails no other nation has ever experienced.

When we were fighting external enemies, or enemies whom we were certain were sympathetic with foreign intriguers, nearly all of the rank and file of our population were enthusiastically, even fanatically, united to deliver the nation from the multiple foreign yokes. But no sooner had the nation proved its worth to its foreign detractors than certain elements, bred in the old school of political intrigue, began to show their claws. We were face to face with a menace to the life of the republic from two elements.

One was the group who combined religious fanaticism and ignorance with political imbecility and who, in the past, under different Sultans had come to believe that the state was an organism to be exploited through debauchery, corruption and brazen bribery for personal ends. I put the ax in the dual root of this sinister and reprehensible theory of government by destroying the Khalif and the Sultan. I sent into exile the persons in whom this theory was personified. Large numbers, adherents of this school of politics, attempted to interpret any act as atheistic, and, under the aegis of religion, began to intrigue against the life of the republic.


Sixty Leaders Hang at Dawn

In several instances in the past when, in Kurdistan and other interior regions of Anatolia, they showed a disposition to challenge the will of the republic, I crushed them with an iron hand, and for example, had over sixty of their leaders hanged at dawn.

That element had its lesson and will not again attempt to measure swords with 'me.

The second element, I am now about to deal with ruthlessly, is the group of men who in the pre_republic days were known in the world as the Committee of the Union of the Young Turks. The ranks of this element were recruited from a questionable assortment of political adventurers, half_educated progressives and men of dissolute habits. In the days when we were battling against foes from within and without, this element joined us and fought in our ranks. Yet from the early days I had misgivings as to their motives. But I wished, hoped and then prayed that once our country was redeemed from the foreign yoke, this element would mend its methods and become infused with the seal of patriotism. I soon began to realize that my hopes were doomed to be disillusioned and my prayers were [not] to be answered. I patiently waited, keeping a sharp eye on their movements.


Seditious Movements Cloaked

They formed themselves into a political opposition. I do not pretend to be a dictator, bent to suppress sincere and honest political opposition, because a republic is a misnomer when it ceases to brook criticism. But when a group of dissolute, corrupt and unscrupulous political adventurers begin to organize seditious movements under the cloak of political opposition, it becomes the sacred duty of those who are in charge of the machinery of the government to suppress it and suppress it with an exemplary ruthlessness that will prevent the eventual shedding of rivers of blood.

I am about to show these plotters that the Republic of Turkey cannot be overthrown by murderers or through their murderous designs...

These left_overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the republican rule. They have hitherto lived on plunder, robbery and bribery and become inimical to any idea, or suggestion to enlist in useful labor and earn their living by the honest sweat of their brow.

Under the cloak of the opposition party, this element, who forced our country into the Great
War against the will of the people, who caused the shedding of rivers of blood of the Turkish
youth to satisfy the criminal ambition of Enver Pasha, has, in a cowardly fashion, intrigued against my life, as well as the lives of the members of my cabinet.

I would have more respect for them had they planned an armed revolution, taking the field in a manly fashion, to overthrow my government. But being conscious of the fact that they could
not muster out even one regiment to give battle to the zealous adherents to, and upholders of, the glorious republic, they have resorted to beastial methods of assassination. They have hired murderers and even debauched women to commit their murderous acts.

In the middle of June last I had planned to make a tour of the country. My itinerary was published. A group of these assassins, placed on the route of procession, were to “rain” hand grenades at the automobiles which were to carry me and my staff.

They went even further and seduced a woman who had been for years identified with my cause and who had been my loyal political friend and on occasion, even adviser. They induced this woman to accept the reprehensible assignment to present me with a bouquet which concealed a bomb that would, on my receiving it, explode and obliterate everyone in sight. This ill_advised woman deserves pity, for she was made to believe that she would thus sacrifice her own life for the good of the fatherland. I was the enemy of the nation. She will be forgiven for her part in the plot, for she conscience_stricken, confessed to the proper authorities in time for me to cancel my intended tour.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/7758/
This article basicly shows how Ataturk tries to use excuses in order to justify his genocide of the Armenians.

[Fenerliyim]

Cause it is bullshit, just look at the sources geocites, Armenian Mirror?

lol did u even see that geocites website, just a bunch of made up stuff/photoshopped photos

where is the interview?

[Panathinaikos2]

Cause it is bullshit, just look at the sources geocites, Armenian Mirror?

lol did u even see that geocites website, just a bunch of made up stuff/photoshopped photos

where is the interview?It doesn't matter from what site it's from becuase this is a real interview from the Los Angeles Examiner.

[Fenerliyim]

"The text below is corrected and reprinted from the Armenian Mirror-Spectator, March 16, 1985."

yea so believable

[Fenerliyim]

read this:

http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1914-some-more-ugly-lies-about-ataturk.html

its about ur article

[Panathinaikos2]

Thanks for responding to this article.

[Saraj Fanático]

Guys, quiet with this. Listen, we now know Armenia and Turkey are in the same group for WC qualifying. SO, whoever wins on aggregate is correct after the two games are played? Okay? Armenia's claim of Genocide will be proved right if they win and if Turks win its an event that never occurred.

[Innocent?]

Here's 58 Armenians Revolt Related European And US Newspaper Screenshots

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/Ru7JcboSEvI/AAAAAAAABHs/38fplw-Ub3w/s400/intro.jpg

) "Russian Troops Linked with Greek and Armenian Civillians As The Perpetrators" New York Times, 22 Oct 1915
http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RyCX5G2ffDI/AAAAAAAABOQ/h1eMwW-4Gxo/s400/10-NYT+october+22+1915.jpg

170 Armenian Bombs Exhibited" New York Times, 23 Sep 1896

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RyCV3m2fe_I/AAAAAAAABNw/oIIHWVTkjdk/s400/07+-NYT+september+23+1896.jpg

"Armenians Insurgents Massacred All The Turkish Soldiers at Zeitoun" New York Times, 21 Dec 1895

http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RyCUAG2fe8I/AAAAAAAABNY/UWIJUryN1GE/s400/04-NYT+December+21+1895.jpg

"Aggression Of Armenians" New York Times, 2 Nov 1895

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RyCSkm2fe6I/AAAAAAAABNI/s8mOKT45mIo/s400/02-+NYT+november+2+1895.jpg
" Mosque, School and Bazaar : Armenians Set Fire " New York Times, 15 Dec 1891

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RyCRkW2fe5I/AAAAAAAABNA/Se76AluQIE0/s400/01-+NYT+1891-11-15.jpg

"8.000+ Armenian Volunteers fighting for the Russians in Turkey" Armenian Red Cross To The Times Editor : The Times London 12 Jan 1915 Page 7

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RxZg73IPBLI/AAAAAAAABMI/N2lmM-BBy5Q/s400/The+Times+%28London%29+Jan+12+1915+pg+7.jpg

"150 000 Armenian Volunteers in Russian Army Were The Only Forces Against Turks: Boghos Nubar, Paris" Times of London , 1919 Jan 30

http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RwNKbXIPA7I/AAAAAAAABKM/W0vD_pEjNFI/s400/Times,+1919,+Jan,+30th.jpg

"Istanbul Robert College Educated General Mesrob Azgapetian Titled For His War Services Against Turkey," Republican And Times, 1922 02 0

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RwNI2nIPA6I/AAAAAAAABKE/dyNZoQLj0KI/s400/Republican+And+Times,++1922-02-0-x.jpg

"Armenian Bands Preparing To Invade Ottoman Territory" Oakland Tribune, 1905, May 10

http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RwNIPXIPA5I/AAAAAAAABJ8/bJYqnCT1PdA/s400/Oakland+Tribune+May-10-1905x.jpg

"Threatening Letters From Armenian Revolutionionary Committee" Liverpool Courier, 1897 08-23

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RvIp7wF37uI/AAAAAAAABIk/e9Zdq7lheh8/s400/Liverpool+Courier,+1897-08-23+.jpg

"Reported Armenian Aggression - Terrible Barbarities" Liverpool Courier, 1897-08-10

http://bp0.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RvAWqLoSEzI/AAAAAAAABIM/dy6Z2_IscB8/s400/Liverpool+Courier,+The+1897-08-10.jpg

"Armenians Aid Russians Against Turks" Tyro Herald, 1914 12-10

http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/Rukg_LoSEsI/AAAAAAAABHU/-bbF4xr8fPw/s400/Tyro+Herald+1914-12-10.jpg

"Four Hundred Cleveland Armenians Waiting to Call Back to Armenia To Fight Turkey" Lima Daily News, 1914 11-02

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RukfWboSErI/AAAAAAAABHM/u3N-6lLInEE/s400/Lima+Daily+News,+1914-11-02.jpg

"Mahommedans Plan To Aid Co-Religionists - Barbarities By Armenians" NYT, 1905 June 26

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuOuCagUZBI/AAAAAAAABGU/lMhj2qaZEgA/s400/New+York+Times+1905-06-27.jpg

"Four Villages Reduced To Ashes by Armenians" Lima Times Democrat 1906 Sep 19

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuOshagUZAI/AAAAAAAABGM/tDhN2eB-Y1o/s400/Lima+Times+Democrat+1906+september+19.jpg

"Armenians Fight For Russia" Reno Evening Gazette London 1915 Jan 7

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuJNT6gUY-I/AAAAAAAABF8/RuFtStud8aI/s400/Reno+evening+gazette+jan+7+1915.jpg

"(Armenians) From America To Fight" NYT, 1915 January 8


http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuJKmagUY6I/AAAAAAAABFc/RIUyYJNOE00/s400/January+8,+1915,+Tuesday+NYT.jpg
"Armenians Join Russians" Indianapolis Star, 1915-1-08

http://bp0.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuJJ-KgUY5I/AAAAAAAABFU/h7up499i1bE/s400/Indianapolis+Star,+The++1915-1-08.jpg

"Armenians Aiding Russians in Campaign Against Turkey" Fort Wayne News, 1914-11-07

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuJI06gUY4I/AAAAAAAABFM/3QKPKugueiY/s400/Fort+Wayne+News,+The++1914-11-07.jpg

"Armenians in Revolt" Centralia Enterprise and Tribune, 1895-11-12

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuJFiqgUY1I/AAAAAAAABE0/eFIq3D_7Dtg/s400/1895+11+02+Centralia+Enterprise+And+Tribune.jpg

NYT: 18 Oct 1915 : "Dangerous Rebel Armenians Betray Their Rulers, Take Refuge in Christian Missions : The Kind of Armenians A Turk Knows"

http://armenian.tales.googlepages.com/October181915Mon.gif

NYT: 13 Nov 1914 : "Turkish Armenians Refuse To Join Turkish Army - Ready To Join Russian Invaders for Armed Revolt"

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RsWjbKgUYSI/AAAAAAAABAc/UbHXIX3Q310/s400/November+13,+1914,+Fri.gif

NYT: 9 Oct 1915 "Why We Aid Armenians: It's Because We're Bought by Anglo-French Gold"

http://bp0.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RziBJRIN_kI/AAAAAAAABRQ/ku8ISS6ZnNs/s400/October%2B9,%2B1915,%2BSaturday.gif

NYT 29 Sep 1915: "Armenians Brought Reprisals on Themselves by Trying to Stir Up Rebellion Against Turkey"

http://bp0.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RsWwXagUYYI/AAAAAAAABBM/47t6P9DGzcE/s400/September+29,+1915x.gif

"Turkish Garrisons Attacked by Armenian Rebels" The Washington Post 10 Aug 1904

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/Rr3CvQDXCAI/AAAAAAAAA-M/MTssJfVd_9c/s400/wt.jpg

And the rest is here (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/09/1961-new-series-innocent-armenians.html)

[Fenerliyim]

haha i should give u a medal of honor for that post

[Turkish Delight]

Hmmm, i think that settles it :smoking:

[Cihangir]

That post is a fortune. Gather em like proof thirsty Armenians boys! You can't fight the liars without proof!
Lol

[Carsi_1903]

Here's 58 Armenians Revolt Related European And US Newspaper Screenshots

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/Ru7JcboSEvI/AAAAAAAABHs/38fplw-Ub3w/s400/intro.jpg

) "Russian Troops Linked with Greek and Armenian Civillians As The Perpetrators" New York Times, 22 Oct 1915
http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RyCX5G2ffDI/AAAAAAAABOQ/h1eMwW-4Gxo/s400/10-NYT+october+22+1915.jpg

170 Armenian Bombs Exhibited" New York Times, 23 Sep 1896

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RyCV3m2fe_I/AAAAAAAABNw/oIIHWVTkjdk/s400/07+-NYT+september+23+1896.jpg

"Armenians Insurgents Massacred All The Turkish Soldiers at Zeitoun" New York Times, 21 Dec 1895

http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RyCUAG2fe8I/AAAAAAAABNY/UWIJUryN1GE/s400/04-NYT+December+21+1895.jpg

"Aggression Of Armenians" New York Times, 2 Nov 1895

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RyCSkm2fe6I/AAAAAAAABNI/s8mOKT45mIo/s400/02-+NYT+november+2+1895.jpg
" Mosque, School and Bazaar : Armenians Set Fire " New York Times, 15 Dec 1891

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RyCRkW2fe5I/AAAAAAAABNA/Se76AluQIE0/s400/01-+NYT+1891-11-15.jpg

"8.000+ Armenian Volunteers fighting for the Russians in Turkey" Armenian Red Cross To The Times Editor : The Times London 12 Jan 1915 Page 7

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RxZg73IPBLI/AAAAAAAABMI/N2lmM-BBy5Q/s400/The+Times+%28London%29+Jan+12+1915+pg+7.jpg

"150 000 Armenian Volunteers in Russian Army Were The Only Forces Against Turks: Boghos Nubar, Paris" Times of London , 1919 Jan 30

http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RwNKbXIPA7I/AAAAAAAABKM/W0vD_pEjNFI/s400/Times,+1919,+Jan,+30th.jpg

"Istanbul Robert College Educated General Mesrob Azgapetian Titled For His War Services Against Turkey," Republican And Times, 1922 02 0

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RwNI2nIPA6I/AAAAAAAABKE/dyNZoQLj0KI/s400/Republican+And+Times,++1922-02-0-x.jpg

"Armenian Bands Preparing To Invade Ottoman Territory" Oakland Tribune, 1905, May 10

http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RwNIPXIPA5I/AAAAAAAABJ8/bJYqnCT1PdA/s400/Oakland+Tribune+May-10-1905x.jpg

"Threatening Letters From Armenian Revolutionionary Committee" Liverpool Courier, 1897 08-23

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RvIp7wF37uI/AAAAAAAABIk/e9Zdq7lheh8/s400/Liverpool+Courier,+1897-08-23+.jpg

"Reported Armenian Aggression - Terrible Barbarities" Liverpool Courier, 1897-08-10

http://bp0.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RvAWqLoSEzI/AAAAAAAABIM/dy6Z2_IscB8/s400/Liverpool+Courier,+The+1897-08-10.jpg

"Armenians Aid Russians Against Turks" Tyro Herald, 1914 12-10

http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/Rukg_LoSEsI/AAAAAAAABHU/-bbF4xr8fPw/s400/Tyro+Herald+1914-12-10.jpg

"Four Hundred Cleveland Armenians Waiting to Call Back to Armenia To Fight Turkey" Lima Daily News, 1914 11-02

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RukfWboSErI/AAAAAAAABHM/u3N-6lLInEE/s400/Lima+Daily+News,+1914-11-02.jpg

"Mahommedans Plan To Aid Co-Religionists - Barbarities By Armenians" NYT, 1905 June 26

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuOuCagUZBI/AAAAAAAABGU/lMhj2qaZEgA/s400/New+York+Times+1905-06-27.jpg

"Four Villages Reduced To Ashes by Armenians" Lima Times Democrat 1906 Sep 19

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuOshagUZAI/AAAAAAAABGM/tDhN2eB-Y1o/s400/Lima+Times+Democrat+1906+september+19.jpg

"Armenians Fight For Russia" Reno Evening Gazette London 1915 Jan 7

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuJNT6gUY-I/AAAAAAAABF8/RuFtStud8aI/s400/Reno+evening+gazette+jan+7+1915.jpg

"(Armenians) From America To Fight" NYT, 1915 January 8


http://bp1.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuJKmagUY6I/AAAAAAAABFc/RIUyYJNOE00/s400/January+8,+1915,+Tuesday+NYT.jpg
"Armenians Join Russians" Indianapolis Star, 1915-1-08

http://bp0.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuJJ-KgUY5I/AAAAAAAABFU/h7up499i1bE/s400/Indianapolis+Star,+The++1915-1-08.jpg

"Armenians Aiding Russians in Campaign Against Turkey" Fort Wayne News, 1914-11-07

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuJI06gUY4I/AAAAAAAABFM/3QKPKugueiY/s400/Fort+Wayne+News,+The++1914-11-07.jpg

"Armenians in Revolt" Centralia Enterprise and Tribune, 1895-11-12

http://bp2.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RuJFiqgUY1I/AAAAAAAABE0/eFIq3D_7Dtg/s400/1895+11+02+Centralia+Enterprise+And+Tribune.jpg

NYT: 18 Oct 1915 : "Dangerous Rebel Armenians Betray Their Rulers, Take Refuge in Christian Missions : The Kind of Armenians A Turk Knows"

http://armenian.tales.googlepages.com/October181915Mon.gif

NYT: 13 Nov 1914 : "Turkish Armenians Refuse To Join Turkish Army - Ready To Join Russian Invaders for Armed Revolt"

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RsWjbKgUYSI/AAAAAAAABAc/UbHXIX3Q310/s400/November+13,+1914,+Fri.gif

NYT: 9 Oct 1915 "Why We Aid Armenians: It's Because We're Bought by Anglo-French Gold"

http://bp0.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RziBJRIN_kI/AAAAAAAABRQ/ku8ISS6ZnNs/s400/October%2B9,%2B1915,%2BSaturday.gif

NYT 29 Sep 1915: "Armenians Brought Reprisals on Themselves by Trying to Stir Up Rebellion Against Turkey"

http://bp0.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/RsWwXagUYYI/AAAAAAAABBM/47t6P9DGzcE/s400/September+29,+1915x.gif

"Turkish Garrisons Attacked by Armenian Rebels" The Washington Post 10 Aug 1904

http://bp3.blogger.com/_9rjK1yXqTJc/Rr3CvQDXCAI/AAAAAAAAA-M/MTssJfVd_9c/s400/wt.jpg

And the rest is here (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/09/1961-new-series-innocent-armenians.html)

God bless you "Innocnet?", you did my deed.

[poutismalakas]

That doesn't change anything guys! The late Ottoman govnerment when overkill!

[Cihangir]

Lol of course that doesn't change the already made up minds but it, again, just hustles the already PROOFLESS claim. they are the proof for a lot of our (mine also) defences that Armenians were no poor kitties.

[aslanlar]

I am curious as to where you found such sources innocent? I haven't come across them before. I would greatly appreciate where u got them from.

There was 1 armenian i talked to (via internet) who had actually said armenians didn't even revolt (ha!).

[Innocent?]

I am curious as to where you found such sources innocent? I haven't come across them before. I would greatly appreciate where u got them from.

There was 1 armenian i talked to (via internet) who had actually said armenians didn't even revolt (ha!).

I thought I have already

mentioned the source (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/09/1961-new-series-innocent-armenians.html)

[aslanlar]

thanks so much.

[Bosanac]

I found this article to be very interesting.


http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/06/1763-billy-hayes-i-prefer-turkish.html

[Bosanac]

Armenian Diaspora's Mission

Deceive The World With Genocide Lies
Force Turks To Accept The So Called Genocide
Demand Monetary Compensation
Demand Mount Ararat and Surrondings
Demand 12 Turkish provinces (represented as 12 slabs positioned in a circle in the Armenian Genocide Memorial)
Demand A Greater Armenia Ranges From Black Sea To Mediterranean


:D

[aslanlar]

Apart from the blatent bias, in effect, the goals are pretty true :P 1.) serves to fulfill the rest :)

[Cihangir]

God this whole shit is so funny. :D

[Innocent?]

God this whole shit is so funny. :D

Another Fun:

A Joke Which Explains The Dispora Armenians !

An old Armenian man calls his daughter-in-law and tells her if she gives him a grandchild, he will donate his everything . . to his daughter-in-law. A few months passed and daughter-in-law gets pregnant and goes to father-in-law and says:

-I am pregnant, you have to donate your everything to me as you promised.
-Ok, but the baby must be a boy, otherwise you get nothing.

A few months later they go to a gynecologist and take a look at the baby through ultrasound and see that the baby is a boy. Daughter-in-law goes to the old man again and say;

-I will have a baby and the baby is a boy. Give everything to me as you promised.
-The baby must be a boy and a true Armenian, then I donate everything to you.

The daughter-in-law again goes to the gynecologist and explained the situation. Then they take a look at the baby again through the ultrasound and the gynecologist says:

-Yes, he is a true Armenian.
-How do you get that?
-Look at the screen! He had already started crying even before his birth.

[Cihangir]

^^

Lol!

[aslanlar]

I'd like to mention Bernard Lewis, who is regarded as the best Middle Eastern historian in this era from Princeton Uni, who i recently found denied the Armenian Genocide. This man learnt Arabic, Turkish and Persian and was the first Western Historian to be allowed to view the Turkish government sources.
There is a video on youtube which states his stance on the issue, a nice summary.

Poutis (aren't u glad you get a special mention), you think it's genocide, but everytime i try to get you to explain something instead of random statements, you seem to ignore it... If you want to deny the generally accepted status of 'not genocide', them make a point.
I suggest you go over my posts a few pages ago (the long one), and argue a flaw in my argument (i'm just wondering why you can still claim genocide). That is, if you want to substantiate any claim in what you have been writing, or if it's just some anti-Turk bullsh**.

In regards to the topic, i'd like to invite anyone with some information to post what they know if they haven't already or if they want to argue the status quo, i will be glad to debate it.

[poutismalakas]

I'd like to mention Bernard Lewis, who is regarded as the best Middle Eastern historian in this era from Princeton Uni, who i recently found denied the Armenian Genocide. This man learnt Arabic, Turkish and Persian and was the first Western Historian to be allowed to view the Turkish government sources.
There is a video on youtube which states his stance on the issue, a nice summary.

Poutis (aren't u glad you get a special mention), you think it's genocide, but everytime i try to get you to explain something instead of random statements, you seem to ignore it... If you want to deny the generally accepted status of 'not genocide', them make a point.
I suggest you go over my posts a few pages ago (the long one), and argue a flaw in my argument (i'm just wondering why you can still claim genocide). That is, if you want to substantiate any claim in what you have been writing, or if it's just some anti-Turk bullsh**.

In regards to the topic, i'd like to invite anyone with some information to post what they know if they haven't already or if they want to argue the status quo, i will be glad to debate it.
Please asked away! I havn't ignored you I just havn't been in this thread lately due to the lack of activity!

[aslanlar]

If you want to deny the generally accepted status of 'not genocide', them make a point.
I suggest you go over my posts a few pages ago (the long one), and argue a flaw in my argument (i'm just wondering why/how you can still claim genocide)


For some reason i can't make a quote, but that's it ^

[poutismalakas]

I will read you stuff since you brought it up again and I'll give you my answer!

[Kanarya]

i wonder what the leader of besiktas supporter group carsi thinks about the armenian genocide.

the so called father of besiktas supporters ;)

[aslanlar]

1.) wow, forgot bout this thread :D ok poutis.
2.) why would cihangir support the armenian "genocide"? He voted no :)

[poutismalakas]

ok I have read all the articles that was ledgible. I do know that Armenians revolted Hell even the Ottomen's muslim subject revolted at times as well. When we revolted we killed up to 30,000 Turks! for that the Turks took Chios and Psara they killed 110,000 Greeks, enslaved 50,000 and exiled 23,000!

My reason for saying this is that the Turks acted like the Romans and Germans kill one Turk we'll kill 2! I have never denied that Turks have died but I believe that the Turks acted in a overkill manor to suppress any and all revolts during the demise of the Ottoman Empire. I feel that Turkey should accept that their ancestors did kill and/or send non-combantants to the desert to die! Armenia shouldn't get anything for it though! I am against all the money German has given Isreal as well! Alotof the proTurk articles posted here did have Turkish authors as well so one can make the arguement that those articles are damage control or proganda?!

Either way the inheiritors of the Ottoman legacy i.e. Turkey, Greece, Armenia, Albania, Serbia, Iraq, and etc have skeletons in their closets!!! I think everyone should accept that their are things that their ancestors have done in the name of patriotism! Once all of us accept responsiblity we can finally move forward and build a peaceful and prosperous Balkan and Near East!

[aslanlar]

Let me just say, i don't know much about the western front of the Ottoman Empire during ww1 so post as many greek figures as you want, they aren't armenians.

"kill one Turk we'll kill 2"- such a statement that's about a nation that is struggling to exist on a map is rather far-fetched.

"overkill manor to supress any and all revolts during the demise of the Ottoman Empire"- to an extent you are correct. Sultan Abdul-Hamid II was a conservatist, rather like Alexander III of Russia. Just as he ruined the modernization attempts of Russia by alexander II, Abdul-Hamid's Islamic-conservative style abolished the reforms enforced by Mahmud II at the start of the century.

So now we've established that Abdul Hamid II is a religious conservative who cemented the end of the Ottoman Empire. During this time, the Ottoman Empire declared bankrupcy. Understandably, armenian rebellion grew incredibly during this time. Terrorist/nationalist armenian groups (much like the bolsheviks and SR's at this time in Russia) spread out along the East of Russia with the sole purpose of evoking resentment to the Ottomans and creating an indipendent Armenia.
Abdul Hamid's response: oppression. Much like the purges of Stalin, although with more 'reason' to the decision,(hehehe, i like this resemblance with Russian history) leading armenian in the nationalist parties were arrested, and any1 thought to have connections/anti-ottoman feelings were arrested with them. If you want to look at any example throughout the history ottoman-armenian relations closest to genocide, this will be it. Keep in mind, less then 100 thousand (personally, =80) armenians died during this decade (and anything citing 150+ is simply ridiculous, especially 300thousand :D :D :D). One must also remember, that 100thousand is hardly an attempt to "wipe out the race" but rather (and logically more valid) - an attempt to supress nationalism.

Once war broke out, there is not a single act i see that could possible constitute genocide. And don't even start with the re-location, posessions/valuables were recorded so as to be distrubuted back to the residents (the Republic of Turkey even paid $1.3m to armenians in the US after the war as reperations to those who lost their property, a $1.3m that a BROKE Turkish Republic could hardly spare).
Do you honestly think that leaving the muslims/armenians together in the east would have any benefit to either Turkey, or armenians? Surely, more bloodshed would occur.

[poutismalakas]

I don't have time to answer you as. Im off to my niece's 4th b-day party. I will afterwards reply tonight :D

[aslanlar]

Enjoy, have a great time, as well as your niece.

[ulster21]

My vote is yes

[aslanlar]

Would you like to elaborate as to why you think that?

*what are the chances that ulster21 won't reply to this post :D
I'm guessing quite high*

[ulster21]

Would you like to elaborate as to why you think that?

*what are the chances that ulster21 won't reply to this post :D
I'm guessing quite high*

I read it on wikipedia :D

[SiN]

and you know that wikipedia can be edited and manipulated by just about anyone in the whole wide world right??

[ulster21]

and you know that wikipedia can be edited and manipulated by just about anyone in the whole wide world right??

It was a joke Sin!!I have never been to Armenia(and never want to) so I have to base my decision on something? Besides I think the Turks are denying the massacre of Armenians becasue it will hurt their chances of getting into Europe.....Turkey should not be a member of the EU but that is another situation.

[SiN]

hey i dont think turkey should be a member of the eu either, but thats a different topic all together as you say ;)

besides are you oblivious to the fact that some 3 million turks were raped, totured and killed by greek and armenian armed forces during the WARS.

Yes all these allegations happened during times of war. it was not random.

[ulster21]

hey i dont think turkey should be a member of the eu either, but thats a different topic all together as you say ;)

besides are you oblivious to the fact that some 3 million turks were raped, totured and killed by greek and armenian armed forces during the WARS.

Yes all these allegations happened during times of war. it was not random.

3 million......What are you talking about? Besides Greeks & Turks have been killing each other since the beginning of time.

This is Spartaaaa!!! Had to throw that in there

[SiN]

see there is something you dont know

[ulster21]

see there is something you dont know

Your right, I did not have an Armenian history class in school :lol:

[SiN]

Then i will teach you, let me get my books out hold on :)

[SiN]

Atrocities and ethnic cleansing during the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922)

Greek massacres of Turks
British historian Arnold J. Toynbee wrote that there were organized atrocities since the Greek occupation of Smyrna on the 15th May 1919. Toynbee also stated that he and his wife were witnesses to the atrocities perpetrated by Greeks in the Yalova, Gemlik, and Ismid areas and they not only obtained abundant material evidence in the shape of "burnt and plundred houses, recent corpses, and terror stricken survivors."[53] but also witnessed robbery by Greek civilians and arsons by Greek soldiers in uniform in the act of perpetration.[54] Toynbee wrote:

"No sooner had they landed than they began a ruthless warfare against the Turkish population, not omitting the commission of atrocities in the worst Near Eastern manner, they laid waste the fertile Maender Valley, and forced thousands of homeless Turks to take refuge beyond the occupied area."[55]

Historian Taner Akcam noted that a British officer claimed:

"The National forces were established solely for the purpose of fighting the Greeks...The Turks are willing to remain under the control of any other state...There was not even an organized resistance at the time of the Greek occupation. Yet the Greeks are persisting in their oppression, and they have continued to burn villages, kill Turks and rape and kill women and young girls and throttle to death children." .[56]

Inter-Allied commission in the Yalova-Gemlik peninsula, in their report of the 23rd May 1921, during the Greek occupation of western Anatolia, wrote that:

" A distinct and regular method appears to have been followed in the destruction of villages, group by group, for the last two months, which destruction has even reached the neighbourhood of the Greek headquarters. The members of the Commission consider that, in the part of the kazas of Yalova and Guemlek occupied by the Greek army, there is a systematic plan of destruction of Turkish villages and extinction of the Moslem population. This plan is being carried out by Greek and Armenian bands, which appear to operate under Greek instructions and sometimes even with the assistance of detachments of regular troops."[57]

Inter Allied commission also stated that the destruction of villages and the disappearance of the Moslem population might have at its objective to create in this region a political situation favourable to the Greek Government.[58]

M. Gehri, the representative of the Geneva International Red Cross who accompanied the Inter-Allied Commission wrote as follows:

"...The Greek army of occupation have been employed in the extermination of the Moslem population of the Yalova-Gemlik peninsula. The facts established -burning of villages, massacres, terror of the inhabitants, coincidence of place and date- leave no room for doubt in regard to this. The atrocities which we have seen, or of which we have seen the material evidence, were the work of irregular bands of armed civilians(tcheti) and of organised units of the regular army...Instead of being disarmed and broken up, the bands have been assisted in their activities and have collaborated hand in hand with organised units of regulars."[59]

Arnold J. Toynbee wrote that they obtained convincing evidence that similar atrocities had been started in wide areas all over the remainder of the Greek occupied territories since June 1921. [60] Toynbee argued that: " the situation of the Turks in Smyrna City had become what could be called without exaggeration a 'reign of terror', it was to be inferred that their treatment in the country districts had grown worse in proportion." [61]



Learnt anything yet?

[ulster21]

OK, yet there were atrocities on all sides....like the Armenian genocide by the Turks.

[SiN]

:rolleyes:

[poutismalakas]

Learnt anything yet?

Turkish massacres of Greeks and Armenians
See Pontic Greek Genocide

Many Western newspapers reporting gross abuses committed by Turkish forces against Christian, mainly Greek and Armenian civilians.[62] [63] [64] [65][66][67] The British historian Tonybee stated that Turkish troops deliberately burned numerous Greek homes, pouring petrol on them and taking care to ensure that they were totally destroyed. [68] There were massacres throughout 1920-1923, the period of the Turkish War of Independence, especially of Armenians in the East and the South, and against the Greeks in the Black Sea Region. [69] There was also significant continuity between the organizers of the massacres between 1915-1917 and 1919-1921 in Eastern Anatolia. [70]

According to the London based Times: "The Turkish authorities frankly state it is their deliberate intention to let all the Greeks die, and their actions support their statement."[71] An Irish paper, the Belfast News Letter wrote: "The appalling tale of barbarity and cruelty now being practiced by the Angora Turks is part of a systematic policy of extermination of Christian minorities in Asia Minor."[72] According to the Christian Science Monitor, the Turks felt that they needed to murder their Christian minorities due to Christian superiority in terms of industriousness and the consequent Turkish feelings of jealously and inferiority, The paper wrote: "The result has been to breed feelings of alarm and jealously in the minds of the Turks which in later years have driven them to depression. They believe that they cannot compete with their Christian subjects in the arts of peace and that the Christians and Greeks especially are too industrious and too well educated as rivals. Therefore from time to time they have striven to try and redress the balance by expulsion and massacre. That has been the position generations past in Turkey again if the Great powers are callous and unwise enough to attempt to perpetuate Turkish misrule over Christians."[73]

A Turkish governor, Ebubekir Hazim Tepeyran in the Sivas Province said in 1919 that the massacres were so horrible that he could not bear to report them. He was referring to the atrocities committed against Greeks in the Black Sea region, and according to the official tally 11,181 Greeks were murdered in 1921 by the Central Army under the command of Nurettin Pasha (who is infamous for the killing of Archbishop Chrysostomos).[74] Some parliamentary deputies demanded Nurettin Pasha to be sentenced to death and it was decided to put him on trial although the trial was later revoked by the intervention of Mustafa Kemal.

Taner Akcam wrote that according to one newspaper, Nurettin Pasha had suggested to kill all the remaining Greek and Armenian populations in Anatolia, a suggestion rejected by Mustafa Kemal. [75]

According to the newspaper the Scotsman, on August 18th of 1920, in the Feival district of Karamusal, South-East of Ismid in Asia Minor, the Turks massacred 5,000 Christians. [76] As well as massacring Greeks, the Turks also massacred Armenians, continuing the policies of the 1915 Armenian Genocide according to many Western newspapers. [77]

The were widespread massacres of Greeks in the Pontus region, which is recognized in Greece and Cyprus[78] as the Pontian Genocide. On February 25, 1922 24 Greek villages in the Pontus region were burnt to the ground. An American newspaper, the Atlanta Observer wrote: "The smell of the burning bodies of women and children in Pontus" said the message "comes as a warning of what is awaiting the Christian in Asia Minor after the withdrawal of the Hellenic army."[79] In the first few months of 1922, 10,000 Greeks were killed by advancing Kemalist forces, acccording to Belfast News Letter .[80][81] The Turks continued the practice of slavery, seizing women and children for their harems.[82][83] Many Turkish soldiers would also rape women. [84] American relief works were also treated with extreme disrespect, even when they were aiding Muslim civilians. [85] Christian Science Monitor wrote that Turkish authorities also prevented missionaries and humanitarian aid groups from assisting Greek civilians who had their homes burned, the Turkish authorities leaving these people to die despite abundant aid. The Christian Science Monitor wrote: "the Turks are trying to exterminate the Greek population with more vigor than they exercised towards the Armenians in 1915."[86]

According to a proclamation made in 2002 by the then-governor of New York (where a sizeable population of Greek Americans resides), George Pataki (of Hungarian descent [3][4][5]), Greeks of Asia Minor endured immeasurable cruelty during a Turkish government-sanctioned systematic campaign to displace them; destroying Greek towns and villages and slaughtering additional hundreds of thousands of civilians in areas where Greeks composed a majority, as on the Black Sea coast, Pontus, and areas around Smyrna; those who survived were exiled from Turkey and today they and their descendants live throughout the Greek diaspora.[87]

A sizable population of Greeks had been forced to leave its ancestral homelands of Ionia, Pontus and Eastern Thrace between 1914-1922. These refugees, as well as the Greek Americans with origins in Anatolia were not allowed to return after 1923 and the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne. Norman Naimark arguing that the Turkish counterattack had all the characteristics of ethnic cleansing wrote: "...the Turks would and did use their opportunity of their advance to the Aegean to rid Western Anatolia of the native Greek inhabitants. The Hellenic Greek armies had performed much of the work for them in burning and destroying Greek homes and property..." [88] The instigation of a forcible transfer of populations uprooted close to a 1.5 million Greeks from Turkey in exchange for less than half a million of Turks from Greece. According to historian Dinah Shelton: "the Lausanne Treaty completed the forcible transfer of the country's Greeks". [89]

As I said no one is innocent but the difference is that the Armenians had no place to go except the desert unlike the Greeks

[aslanlar]

Or to russia/western europe/america during and after the 1890's.

During the war, yes they were relocated because a large % of the population was rebelling to carve up the empire. Hahah, even all the way down to Adana was 'cicilian armenia' as if they even had an imposing armenian presence there! They hadn't ruled/been a majority in the land for hundreds of years yet they claimed half of what was left of the empire!
Again, their posessions recorded so their wealth would be kept, it was in the interests of both civilian armenians + the Ottoman empire.

Show me reliable source depicting the relocation as 'death-marches' (as in numbers dead. once seeing the reality, you will understand that 'relocation' isn't a substantiated claim for 'genocide').

[Panathinaikos2]

You know it seems like only you Turks here in this forum are experts of the Armenian genocide, but don't you think that is we had some Armenians on this forum, the debate would be a bit even?? Anyway as for the Turks claiming we Greek killed 3 million n Turks during the Asia Minor war, that is very laughable. Yes the Greek army did commit some attrocities towards Turkish civilians, but the number was not very high. You Turks though commited far worse atrocities towards the Greek civilians of Pontus and Smyrna! The Turks killed an estimate 500,000 Greek Pontians which is preety much a genocide on the Greek Pontic population of Turkey. One governer in Greece known as Psomiadis is of Pontic background and he claims that out of his grandfathers 15 children that were forced to march from Pontus to Salonika, only 7 survived! And as for our atrocities towards Turkish civilians, I have you know that our Prime Minister Venizelos condemned the acts of violence and even said that we Greeks must act as brothers with the muslim Turks. The same can not be said about your government at the time...

[SiN]

I just wish it all never happened :(

[Kanarya]

dont use muslim turks or christian turks, a turk is a turk.

[SiN]

yeh i hate when people classify a person or a nation with their relegion....

how many times have you guys heard, an islamic extremist or muslim terrorist

but never christian terrorist or christian extremist...

the media totally manipulates things

[Kanarya]

btw. all other nations are allowed to have war and to kill, but when the turks kill its called a ''genocide'' :)

[Panathinaikos2]

dont use muslim turks or christian turks, a turk is a turk.That's what I meant but Venizelos used the term muslims specificly which is why I wrote that. And yes I agree with your statement here.

[SiN]

Its funny isint it? First the UN and USA allow us to go and take care of the Kurdish Terrorist that our infilrating our borders and have killed thousands of innocent turks, then give us only a week or so to do it all and say turkey must leave iraq as soon asw possible however the usa have been in iraq for more than 5 years doing