Should Turkey Invade Iraq?

[el Turco]

I want to see what people around the world think. Should Turkey invade Iraq to stop the terrorist attacks from PKK(Kurdish Workers Party) that has killed tens of thousands of Turkish people?

[Fenerliyim]

sorry for approving it this late. imo yes, its our border, we are in threat and the only way to take out the pkk, who are supported by the us, is take them out our selves.

[Cihangir]

No, absolutely not. Why should we? Occupying an American colony wouldn't solve a thing, on the contrary it would make the situation more complex.
However, "Why PKK can't be eliminated?" should be the question. It's obvious that PKK is "supported" and an invasion of Iraq will just be for nothing and it will be the repeat of what those American families lived through who had their sons killed. As you all know we in Turkey suffered from matyrs over decades very densely. War waging will just be a horrible waste when our economy is shit.
So a military action should be taken inside of Turkey, not outside. There are much more PKK activities inside of Turkey than the outside. Well we have been doing it for years and years and why didn't they disappear? Well, the answer to that contains many conspiracies (some i think is true) so i won't go into that.
The threat is inside of our country, so i say no.

[Saraj Fanático]

I actually agree with Cihangir. That was well said. And the PKK is supported.

[cengo]

So a military action should be taken inside of Turkey, not outside. There are much more PKK activities inside of Turkey than the outside. Well we have been doing it for years and years and why didn't they disappear? Well, the answer to that contains many conspiracies (some i think is true) so i won't go into that.
The threat is inside of our country, so i say no.

I dont know where got that from Cihangir but its no secret that the majority of the PKK camps are in Iran, Iraq and Syria.

To eliminate terrorists like PKK we have to act outside the borders of Türkiye. Is it a good idea...probably not.

Is it necessary....we should have done for a long time ago!

Every day i wake up and read in the news that 2-3 brave turkish soldiers have died....if we had a strong government, and not the EU suck up kind, we would have acted long time ago. But unfortunately the AKP doesnt mind casualties like that in favour of looking good in the EU parliament.

I have never liked politicans such as Baykal, Mesut Yilmaz, Tansu Ciller or that MHP leader. I would never lower myself to even vote for them....but i know for sure that these people would have done everything in their power to protect Turkish people from dieing every day.

[cengo]

And it shouldnt be called invading Iraq....it's not like we will stay they there for ever.

Invading is USA's specialty....not ours.

[Galatasaray SK]

And it shouldnt be called invading Iraq....it's not like we will stay they there for ever.

Invading is USA's specialty....not ours.
:rockon: +1 agreed. :)

[el Turco]

It feels like, it's been a long time since I opened this thread. Elections, TSL began etc. :D

Im on the fence about this issue. Like any other Turkish citizen, I hate to see our brave Mehmetcik being martyred by bunch of cowards, but entering Iraq can be very risky.

[Cihangir]

I dont know where got that from Cihangir but its no secret that the majority of the PKK camps are in Iran, Iraq and Syria.

To eliminate terrorists like PKK we have to act outside the borders of Türkiye. Is it a good idea...probably not.

Is it necessary....we should have done for a long time ago!

Every day i wake up and read in the news that 2-3 brave turkish soldiers have died....if we had a strong government, and not the EU suck up kind, we would have acted long time ago. But unfortunately the AKP doesnt mind casualties like that in favour of looking good in the EU parliament.

I have never liked politicans such as Baykal, Mesut Yilmaz, Tansu Ciller or that MHP leader. I would never lower myself to even vote for them....but i know for sure that these people would have done everything in their power to protect Turkish people from dieing every day.

Do you think it's all about the camps? So we should all go there and wack em? Do you think it's easy? Or can Turkey over come it? The most powerful army in the planet got ***ked up in Iraq.
We have to do outside operations while a group of PKK terrorists ambush two city busses with molotov cocktails in daylight in the middle of Istanbul? Don't think so. Why wage a military action outside of our borders when there is still a threat in our streets?

[cengo]

The threat in our streets get their strength, money and their equipment from these camps.

To eliminate the PKK you dont go around chasing the ones doing the suicide bombings. You go to the root which we know are in the countries i mentioned.

Without this support from these camps the so called threat on the streets will vanish sooner or later.

To kill a tree you dont cut the branches....you have to kill it from it's root!

You do that by cutting off the tree's water and mineral supply....

[Cihangir]

Well surely. That's the simplest logical way but PKK is not just PKK as you know. It may as well be seen as the representer of every anti-Turkish ideas. So it's a deeper thing.
Well assume that we invaded Iraq and wiped the PKK off the face of the earth. Won't they recruit again? Yes they will. We captured Öcalan and felt wonderful and thought it was all over but they are still there. The support will always be there since Turkey is a "persona non grata" amongst his peers. If it won't be PKK it will be something else. The problem with Turkey is that we are somehow don't seem to be powerful as a country, as a nation and a as a military force while in essence we are. We've got to show your power to scare them away but i still see our public's concern to be insufficient tho they are the most passionate haters and 1st hand victims, witnesses etc. Police are scared of PKK as we saw it in this recent attacks, witnesses reported that they have seen several police officers ignored the molotov cocktail party. I guess i don't need to mention our American passport owner, "ex-Radical Islamist" prime minister and his beloved Exeter Univeristy graduate British spy presidental candidate friend. Since our armed forces are under control of them, they are effectless. What do we have in hand so far? Nothing.
I think this is the problem.

[Fenerliyim]

Do you think it's all about the camps? So we should all go there and wack em? Do you think it's easy? Or can Turkey over come it? The most powerful army in the planet got ***ked up in Iraq.
We have to do outside operations while a group of PKK terrorists ambush two city busses with molotov cocktails in daylight in the middle of Istanbul? Don't think so. Why wage a military action outside of our borders when there is still a threat in our streets?

The most powerful army in the world is known to be a failure against guerilla warfare. Remember Vietnam?

Turkey on the other hand is considered the most succesful against warfare

[cengo]

Our main problem was that even when thousands of people has ben killed by the PKK our government has never taken this issue seriously, at least that is what i belive.

If they had taken it seriously we would have established secret intelligences who would have integrated with the PKK. They would have located every kurdish citizen in the country registered them.

What we have done until now is what you want the army to do, to catch the suiceide bombers in the street. There could be thousands of them in the country.

Even if i dont support the politics of the MHP i would actually vote for them only to solve this problem because they are ultra-nationalists and they would use every possible mean to get rid of the PKK.

If we continue to solve the PKK problem we have been trying for the last 20 years we will still read about killed soldiers in the newspapers for another 20 years.

For that reason i would support military actions outside the borders of Türkiye. Not only to show the PKK that we are ready to get to the bottom of this but to also show the countries who allows them to have camps that we wont accept that.

Before we caught öcalan we almost declared war with Syria who paniced and deported öcalan from Syria. Öcalan hid himself in Russia and our governemt even warned the mighty russia from hiding him and it didnt take long before they felt the need to send him away.

Those days Türkiye showed how determined they were to catch him and no country in europe accepted or anywhere else in the world wanted to give öcalan a plcae to stay.

Thoe were the days when i actually was proud of my government. But after we caught öcalan we thought the problem was solved and we actually believed that the PKK was serious with their truce.

They only used this to mobilize themselves once again.

So even if i do´nt like the idea of military actions outside our borders this is only way to eliminate the PKK from the root and to send a message to these countries that we are serious about it.

[Cihangir]

The most powerful army in the world is known to be a failure against guerilla warfare. Remember Vietnam?

Turkey on the other hand is considered the most succesful against warfare

Yes everyone knows that and I didn't say that our army isn't. I'm saying that does it worth to risk it for outcomes which will be unknown if such a military action happenes? I think it does not since we still have "the problem" in front of our noses.

[Bosnian Unit]

You should, but only if you are gonna help Iraqis to liberate ther homeland against American terrorists.

[Gavmundo]

Not if Turkey wants to stay in one piece :lol: Won't happen!

[Fenerliyim]

actually imo if turkey wants to stay in one peace in the future it should or a huge part of turkey will be taken for kurdistan is wat i fear

[cengo]

You fear in vain....do you think there is any slight possibility that something like that would happen?

Come on...:)

[Gavmundo]

International opposition wouldn't allow it. Believe me it won't happen. I can understand the concerns with Iraq but the idea of this is just ridiculous. It won't even be contemplated.

[cengo]

Since when has Türkiye taken the international opposition seriously when it comes to military actions.

We have made maybe a hundred operations in Iraq before and with the opposition against us. If Türkiye feel it's necessary to enter Iraq im sure they will do so.

And why is the idea of entering Iraq rediculous?

Is it more rediculous than USA's war in Iraq?

Türkiye actually knows who the enemy is....unlike USA.

[Gavmundo]

I idea of them considering it is ridiculous but let's see. If they invade then you're right and if they don't then I'm right. I think we may be waiting a long time though. We're not talking about some border dispute here we're talking about a full invasion and that's just not viable.

[cengo]

I dont understand where you get the full invasion from.

The turkish military knows exactly where to strike. They know where all the camps are situated. If they decide to enter Iraq these actions wont last more than a week or two.

[Gavmundo]

Well the title of the thread was about an invasion of Iraq. There thread isn't entitled "Should Turkey clash with insurgents on it's border with Iraq" Invasion suggests a complete incursion into another country.

[cengo]

Iran has already begun their INVASION of Iraq....they have managed to bomb several PKK camps.

I hope Türkiye doesnt wait too long before they follow up on Iran's brave attack against the terrorists.

[manfan1523]

i dont know if you guys have been keeping up on current events lately but iraq has already been invaded. the turks would be a bit late

[Cihangir]

^^
Oh my god! By who!? Is it the Russkies!?

[aslanlar]

Yes. Definately Yes. 30-40 thousand Turks dead by the PKK in the last 30 years. What is this! Looks like we will finally invade them within the next week or 2.

[Fenerliyim]

Finally, go there and wipe those terrorists of the face of the earth. After wat happened this last week, not one of them deserves to live. Turkey has finally said f u to america, we'll do wats best for our citizens. Time to take control of the middle east imo.

[Wabbit]

U can't honestly ask that!! Since when invading an other country, no matter the reasons, is the solution?!??!?!

Geez............turkey should invade a ham-&-bread :lol:

[Fenerliyim]

its been the solution since the beginning of time, invade, crush em, and make them think a million times before ever even trying a terrorist attack or want a part of turkey for their imaginary country ever again

[Bosnian Unit]

Answer for the thread topic....

Yes you should, go ahead i really dont give a shit :smoking: .

You have a reason at least unlike some other nations !

P.S. But only what is considered Kurdistan !

[Fenerliyim]

nothing is considered kurdistan since it is only imaginary

[Bosnian Unit]

nothing is considered kurdistan since it is only imaginary


I know but i couldent find any other way to say that !

[Fenerliyim]

u could have said, wat are the borders of the country that kurds dream of getting but will never ever get anything from turkey

[Fenerliyim]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/a2a433ac-7b43-11dc-8c53-0000779fd2ac.html

we are goin in, goodbye pkk

[B-Town Rovers]

I hate to read this. I am never for war......I don't believe in killing for anything, I think dying with morals is better than killing for freedom

[Pape]

Can you guys see these wars have been so contagious, Afghanistan war, Iraq War, Turkey War, probably Kosovo War again, moving westward...

[ARBANITAI]

nothing is considered kurdistan since it is only imaginary

ah not really..

then who is the homeland of the so many kurds in middle east ?

It must be Kurdish land so kurdistan.. so its not imaginary.. like it or not

[ARBANITAI]

Can you guys see these wars have been so contagious, Afghanistan war, Iraq War, Turkey War, probably Kosovo War again, moving westward...


the only next posibble war that can happen again in balkans is "serbs vs serbs"

the rest left it behind...n look forward yall

[valdanito_10]

well. good luck with that.

[Bosnian Unit]

u could have said, wat are the borders of the country that kurds dream of getting but will never ever get anything from turkey

Are you serious ?

You want me to say all that shit, insted of one word :lol: !

[Fenerliyim]

ah not really..

then who is the homeland of the so many kurds in middle east ?

It must be Kurdish land so kurdistan.. so its not imaginary.. like it or not

hmmm i dont see no country named kurdistan in the middle of the middle east, do u? Kurds do not have a homeland, they dream of one, but their dream will never come true.

[el Turco]

ah not really..

then who is the homeland of the so many kurds in middle east ?

It must be Kurdish land so kurdistan.. so its not imaginary.. like it or not

http://www.fullpassport.com/Trip2000/Images/middle_east2.gif

Where is Kurdistan(!), because I cant see!!!

[Fenerliyim]

I hate to read this. I am never for war......I don't believe in killing for anything, I think dying with morals is better than killing for freedom


its not a war, turkey didnt declare war on iraq. Unlike the US who claims to go there with terrorism and nuclear weapons excuses to just get oil, Turkey will go in, execute their plan against the PKK, and get out. We know where they are, we know their camps. All we gonna do is destroy them. Get rid of the pkk from their roots

[poutismalakas]

its not a war, turkey didnt declare war on iraq. Unlike the US who claims to go there with terrorism and nuclear weapons excuses to just get oil, Turkey will go in, execute their plan against the PKK, and get out. We know where they are, we know their camps. All we gonna do is destroy them. Get rid of the pkk from their roots
What will you say when Turkey says we have to sat y longer and reports of "Terrorists" dying be it young, old and female occur!

[Fenerliyim]

i'm not worried, cause that wont happen.

[SiN]

We gotta do what we gotta do. WE have suffered alot from the PKK now its time to get rid of them once and for all.

[Pape]

the only next posibble war that can happen again in balkans is "serbs vs serbs"

the rest left it behind...n look forward yall

keep dreaming, enjoy the american alliance support while it lasts

Here is how close the United States was with the Serbs

On July 28, 1918, President Woodrow Wilson gave the following message to the American people. It was read in churches throughout the country and published in virtually all major newspapers. The Serbian flag was raised over the White House and all public buildings in this nation's capital. The message read:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To the People of the United States:


On Sunday, 28th of this present month, will occur the fourth anniversary of the day when the gallant people of Serbia, rather than submit to the studied and ignoble exactions of a prearranged foe, were called upon by the war declaration of Austria-Hungry to defend their territory and their homes against an enemy bent on their destruction. Nobly did they respond.


So valiantly and courageously did they oppose the forces of a country ten times greater in population and resources that it was only after they had thrice driven the Austrians back and Germany and Bulgaria had come to the aid of Austria that they were compelled to retreat into Albania. While their territory has been devastated and their homes despoiled, the spirit of the Serbian people has not been broken. Though overwhelmed by superior forces, their love of freedom remains unabated. Brutal force has left unaffected their firm determination to sacrifice everything for liberty and independence.


It is fitting that the people of the United States, dedicated to the self-evident truth that is the right of the people of all nations, small as well as great, to live their own lives and choose their own government, and remembering that the principles for which Serbia has so nobly fought and suffered are those for which the United States is fighting, should on the occasion of this anniversary manifest in an appropriate manner their war sympathy with this oppressed people who have so heroically resisted the aims of the Germanic nations to master the world. At the same time, we should not forget the kindred people of the Great Slavic race--the Poles, the Czechs and Jugo-Slavs, who, now dominated and oppressed by alien races yearn for independence and national unity.


This can be done in a manner no more appropriate than in our churches. I, therefore, appeal to the people of the United States of all faiths and creeds to assemble in their several places of worship on Sunday July 28, for the purpose of giving expression to their sympathy with this subjugated people and their oppressed and dominated kindred in other lands, and to invoke the blessings of Almighty God upon them and upon the cause to which they are pledged.


Woodrow Wilson, President,
The White House, July, 1918.


only to attempt and annihilate us 70 years later because we still fought for the same cause they once praised us for

enjoy it while it lasts

[B-Town Rovers]

its not a war, turkey didnt declare war on iraq. Unlike the US who claims to go there with terrorism and nuclear weapons excuses to just get oil, Turkey will go in, execute their plan against the PKK, and get out. We know where they are, we know their camps. All we gonna do is destroy them. Get rid of the pkk from their roots

I understand what you are saying, but I don't believe in killing anything.

I can somewhat relate with the Kurds though. I'm Buddhist and I believe in the Freedom of Tibet, and to me, it'll always be a country whether or not it's on a map :sad:

[el Turco]

I understand what you are saying, but I don't believe in killing anything.


I understand you, but they have killed over 20000 Turkish people in recent years. What would you do if you were in this kind of situation?

[poutismalakas]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2007/10/15/robertson.iraq.turkish.tensions.cnn

Well it looks like it has happened?

[Fenerliyim]

it cant happen yet, they gonna vote on wednesday in turkey

[poutismalakas]

so I quess shelling a village doesn't constitute that they have started their invasion.

[Fenerliyim]

how u know we did it? it could've been the pkk terrorists doin it to frame us.

Plus no one was killed, or any houses damaged. If we wanted to destroy that village we would have

[poutismalakas]

how u know we did it? it could've been the pkk terrorists doin it to frame us.

Plus no one was killed, or any houses damaged. If we wanted to destroy that village we would have
WHY would Kurds fire on Kurds? If there was a chance that they would hit their own people?

[el Turco]

WHY would Kurds fire on Kurds? If there was a chance that they would hit their own people?

Do you know how many Kurdish people were killed by PKK ???

[Fenerliyim]

WHY would Kurds fire on Kurds? If there was a chance that they would hit their own people?

the PKK have killed many kurds especially if they dont support wat they are doing.

[SiN]

***king bastard's

[poutismalakas]

IRBIL, Iraq (CNN) -- Turkish troops shelled farmland around a half-dozen villages in northern Iraq from across the tense border, an Iraqi Kurdish official said Sunday, in what the Turkish military called retaliation for weekend attacks by Kurdish rebels.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2007/WORLD/meast/10/14/iraq.turkey/art.turkey.trucks.afp.jpg
Turkish military trucks carry tanks on a road in southeastern Turkey on October 10.

A provincial intelligence official in Iraq's Kurdish city of Dohuk said the shelling set orchards and farmland ablaze, but no casualties were reported. Firefighters worked until just before daybreak to put out a blaze that scorched fields on farms near the border.

Turkey's military reported Saturday that Kurdish separatist guerrillas attacked villages on its side of the border late Friday, wounding one soldier near the village of Yemisli.

"The Turkish military responded to these unacceptable attacks and will continue to respond," a military statement said.

The most recent shelling began at 10:30 p.m. Saturday and lasted for more than four hours, striking farmlands and adjacent roads used by villagers. Authorities fear as many as 30,000 people may be displaced from their homes if the bombardment continues, the intelligence official said.

The shelling comes as Turkey's government is threatening to mount a cross-border attack to root out guerrillas from the separatist Kurdistan Worker's Party, or PKK, which has battled Turkish troops in the country's heavily Kurdish southeast since 1984. The United States and the European Union have branded the group a terrorist organization, and Turkish officials say 30 soldiers and civilians have been killed in PKK attacks since late September.

Turkey has about 60,000 on Iraq's northern frontier, and Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan says he will ask parliament this week to authorize a military incursion -- a move U.S. officials fear could undermine the stability of Iraq's American-backed government. U.S. envoys have urged Iraq to crack down on the rebels and held weekend talks in Ankara to persuade NATO ally Turkey to stay its hand.


Iraqi Defense Ministry spokesman Mohammed al-Askari could not confirm Sunday's reports, but restated that Iraq's official position is to resolve all issues with neighboring countries including Turkey diplomatically, based on Iraq's constitution and law.

Defense Minister Abdel Qader Mohammed Jassim has been involved in diplomatic talks with the Turkish Ambassador in Baghdad and has called for resolving these issues "peacefully" and strengthening ties between Iraq and Turkey, al-Askari said. E-mail to a friend

CNN's Nic Robertson, Ingrid Formanek and Talia Kayali contributed to this report.

[Fenerliyim]

we gonna make sure they get taught to never mess with turkey again.

[Panathinaikos2]

I don't see how the US can allow this invasion to happen especially since northern Iraq is the most stable and richest part of Iraq.

[Fenerliyim]

US has no choice, our Erdogan said, the US didnt get permission goin in, we dont need permission from anyone

[poutismalakas]

we gonna make sure they get taught to never mess with turkey again.
How is that? BY killing all of them?

[aslanlar]

Yes, hopefully. Or do you support the terrorist organization?

[aslanlar]

so I quess shelling a village doesn't constitute that they have started their invasion.

No, it doesn't constitute as an invasion. Turkey has repeatedly done this before with cross-border raids into Iraq on numerous occasions, it's nothing new. It's an attack inside our border, thus, by definition, not an invasion into iraq.

[Fenerliyim]

How is that? BY killing all of them?

if necessary yes, and i'm assuming u mean all terrorists when u mean all of them

[aslanlar]

I don't see how the US can allow this invasion to happen especially since northern Iraq is the most stable and richest part of Iraq.

Although the US will sway the situation a bit, the ultimate decision will not be influenced by bush. If TURKIYE wishes for an invasion, then TURKIYE will invade. The US honestly can't do much to stop us, and i doubt they will stop diplomatic relations with us.

[Bosnian Unit]

GO IN TURKEY.........DO YOUR THING !


USA.......:lol: 4get USA, they see PKK as a terrorist organization but now they are supporting them,talking with them,supplaying them etc...

USA is like the wind........you never know on what side it will be !

[poutismalakas]

GO IN TURKEY.........DO YOUR THING !


USA.......:lol: 4get USA, they see PKK as a terrorist organization but now they are supporting them,talking with them,supplaying them etc...

USA is like the wind........you never know on what side it will be !
I thought you disagreed with Muslim on Muslim violence and you always disbuted the title of terrorist labeled by the US?

MArk my words Innocent Kurds will be killed!

[el Turco]

I thought you disagreed with Muslim on Muslim violence and you always disbuted the title of terrorist labeled by the US?

MArk my words Innocent Kurds will be killed!

poutis, just think about it.

Some terrorist organization keeps making terrorist attacks to the US, and kills more than 37,000 innocent people, including their own people(Kurdish people) who want to be on US' side. Now what would US do? Sit there and watch it, or attack that country the next day?

And also, Isn't there innocent people dying in Iraq and Afghanistan every day???

[Bosnian Unit]

I thought you disagreed with Muslim on Muslim violence and you always disbuted the title of terrorist labeled by the US?

MArk my words Innocent Kurds will be killed!

I do but when is neccesary, you just need to do something about it !

PKK has been killing innocent people thru out Turkey......for what ?

Even on Bajram (Muslim holiday).........i mean come on !

They will never achive their goal.......they will never get themselfs a country becouse it would consider parts of Turkey,Iran,Syria and Iraq.

NOT POSSIBLE.........SO WHY START SHIT ?

P.S. PKK considered terrorist organization by USA, but still they(USA) helps them, talk to them, supplay them etc.. I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF USA DIDNT START THIS BEHAIND CLOSED DOORS......OF COURSE KURDS WOULD DO IT FOR THEM(americans promised a state :rolleyes: )......SO THEY CAN TURN AWAY ATTENTION FROM IRAQ !

[ARBANITAI]

hmmm i dont see no country named kurdistan in the middle of the middle east, do u? Kurds do not have a homeland, they dream of one, but their dream will never come true.

Well,, thats because you invade their land, and how could we see a kurdish country in middle east then ? this is invasion/ occupation, that turkey iran and iraq did to Kurdistan !!!!

think about it... the kurds have their point, they simply want their land back !

[ARBANITAI]

http://www.fullpassport.com/Trip2000/Images/middle_east2.gif

Where is Kurdistan(!), because I cant see!!!

neither do I.. but if you want to know where around exactly, it is located in southern east turkey, norther iraq and western north iran. its not a country now, it is an occupayed land, by the 3 countries i mentioned before.


...but read my previous post and learn why, just above it ;)

[Fenerliyim]

it also wants a part of syria too if i'm not mistaken. The Anatolia region has been conquered by many many people, we came near a millenium ago, thats been our land for a long long time. Its our land we conquered it.

I can understanding wanting a country but using terrorism to get it is just unacceptable

[aslanlar]

How long ago was it Kurdish land?
How long ago was was American land Native American? So you think America should conceed its territory anad everyone emmigrate out of the country for the Natives to repopulate their rightfull country?

Arbanitai, are you trying to look stupid?

[poutismalakas]

How long ago was it Kurdish land?
How long ago was was American land Native American? So you think America should conceed its territory anad everyone emmigrate out of the country for the Natives to repopulate their rightfull country?

Arbanitai, are you trying to look stupid?
It is Kurdish land BECUASE Kurds still live there!!! You can't licked them out of their land like you did to my friend's Mother When she and her Family had to flee Turkey to Greece in the Istanbul Pogrom of 1955.

[Fenerliyim]

yes turks live there too, its turkish land. Kurds live in turkey. In LA and SF there are Chinatowns, wat would happen if they start bombing places in america if they wanted those places to be conceded to China?

[aslanlar]

And Native Americans still live in America. But for some reason, there are few of them remaining. Did they migrate out of America? No, they were slaughtered by the whites!
If it's solely the population, then in the south, there are a lot of Mexicans. That land should be given to Mexico right?

Central anatolia is Turkish land and was since 1071 in the battle of Manzikert where we cemented our place in Anatolia. 1000 years of Turkish rule is enough to make it Turkish, don't you think so?

If you look at it in an objective manner, quite clearly the American situation is a lot worse, or better yet, the Australian situation.


Poutis, grab a bucket, you're dribbling shi*t out of ur mouth.

[Panathinaikos2]

Poutis, grab a bucket, you're dribbling shi*t out of ur mouth.Stop insulting people who have diferent views than you :boo: This is a forum where anybody can say his/her own oppinions or views freely on any subject and if you don't like the fact that some people disagree with you on this issue then go join some Turkish forum where everybody agrees with each other on the Kurdish situation. Otherwise stop the insults.

[Centarfor9]

Answer for the thread topic....

Yes you should, go ahead i really dont give a shit :smoking: .

You have a reason at least unlike some other nations !

P.S. But only what is considered Kurdistan !
:boo:

no reason

[Centarfor9]

http://www.fullpassport.com/Trip2000/Images/middle_east2.gif

Where is Kurdistan(!), because I cant see!!!

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/kurdistan/kurdistan.gif

google it

[aslanlar]

I honestly don't mind when people express different views to mine, or even, to an extent, anti-Turkish views.
However, pretty much everything said by poutis, or most other people here was Turkophobic bullsh*t and nothing in the form of politics.

Read my posts again, and try to find something in which you disagree with me in. Especially with the comparison to America- do you think the Kurds have more of a right to gain their land then the Mexicans (ok, not the mexicans) or the native-Americans or aboriginals of Australia? This is not a rhetoric question, i'm waiting to see how you could justify that.

In an ideal world, sure it should happen, but then again, Kurds should give their land back to anyone that claim that they are decendents from the Hittite Empire. In an ideal world, expansion should never occur. Turkey, just like America, will not concede the territory. Eastern Turkey is quite rightly Turkish land.

Again, i invite you to try to find a flaw in my arguament.

[Centarfor9]

Iraqi Kurdistan warns Turkey on incursion
by Steve Negus, Iraq correspondent
http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Sources/sourceFiTimes.gif - Updated: 8:41 p.m. ET Oct. 19, 2007

The president of Iraq's autonomous Kurdistan region issued a statement Friday implying that Kurdish forces would resist a Turkish military operation against rebels based in their territory.

The statement by Kurdistan president Masoud Barzani is the strongest-worded reaction so far to Wednesday's decision by the Turkish parliament authorising military action against guerrillas of the PKK, or Kurdistan Workers Party, based in northern Iraq.

"We frankly say to all parties: if they attack the [Kurdistan] region under whatever pretext, we will be completely ready to defend our democratic experiment and the dignity of our people and the sanctity of our homeland," said Mr Barzani in a statement.

Until now, Iraqi Kurdish officials had reacted to the parliamentary vote by pushing for a negotiated solution, which could possibly include the withdrawal of the PKK from its mountain stronghold in northeast Iraq.

Washington has also put pressure on Ankara not to destabilise Iraqi Kurdistan, a zone of comparative security in the country, but has expressed sympathy for Turkish complaints that PKK guerrillas use Iraq as a base for attacks on Turkish soil.

Mr Barzani has traditionally taken a more militant Kurdish nationalist line than other prominent Iraqi Kurdish politicians.

And while Iraqi Kurdish officials say that they have no love for the PKK, a formerly hardline Marxist group which once dubbed them traitors, they also say that they have no wish to shed Kurdish blood to solve what they consider to be a Turkish domestic political problem.

It is unclear when Turkey might stage a cross-border operation, and what form it would take - Parliament's approval is valid for one year. Turkish troops have staged limited cross-border strikes in the past, and Iraqi Kurdish forces have in general stayed out of their way.

It might be possible for the Iraqi Kurdish leaders to similarly ignore a future Turkish operation, presuming that it is confined to remote mountain areas.

Copyright The Financial Times Ltd. All rights reserved.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21380031/

[Fenerliyim]

haha lol. i'd like to see them try and stop us if we went in. This Barzani guy is so full of crap.

[Fenerliyim]

12 more Turkish Soldiers have died today in a sneak attack in :( and 16 injured in Hakkari

Every one of these ***ks deserve to die.

We have now attacked back killing 32 terrorists, hopefully more on the way.

Sehitler Olmez, Vatan Bolunmez.

[SiN]

That should be the last straw. Its time to go in get rid of the real terrorists.

[aslanlar]

We're probably going to invade tomorow. Each and every terrorist can hopefully go to hell soon. I just feel sorry for the Kurds which will suffer from the invasion as a result, but it must be done.

***k the PKK

[SiN]

Its funny how people find it ok for America to invade Iraq and destroy the lives of millions just because Saddam had "WMD's" but they find it outrageous Turkey must invade Iraq to get rid of PKK TERRORISTS!

The world has a problem with Turkey, things are so twisted.

[Fenerliyim]

course they got it in for us, we conquered like 1/3 of the world at point, plus we didnt give up Turkey to the brits and who ever else was at Gallipoli. Plus we're muslim so that gives them another reason to hate us.

[SiN]

Exactly, now watch people come here and post stuff like: thats not true blah blah.

America knows that Turkey has a powerful Army that will wipe away the PKK without lifting a finger. America is just taking all the time in the world in Iraq for oil. Nothing else.

We will go in and finish our business and get back out.

[Reazzurro90]

Exactly, now watch people come here and post stuff like: thats not true blah blah.

America knows that Turkey has a powerful Army that will wipe away the PKK without lifting a finger. America is just taking all the time in the world in Iraq for oil. Nothing else.

We will go in and finish our business and get back out.

What nonsense.....

Although I definitely sympathize with the Turkish cause against the PKK (which I firmly believe should be obliterated), there is no excuse whatsoever for their invasion of northern Iraq. The nation is already in chaos, Turkish troops will only add fuel to the fire - and already twelve have lost their lives.

Turkey should withdraw immediately, it has no place in entering Iraqi territory.

By the way - hate to break it to you, but the Turkish army isn't as hot as you're inferring it to be. If it really does continue to go deeper into Iraqi territory, it will face resistance in Iraqi Kurdistan, and Turkey will simply be in the same position as American troops in the south of the country.

[Fenerliyim]

What nonsense.....

Although I definitely sympathize with the Turkish cause against the PKK (which I firmly believe should be obliterated), there is no excuse whatsoever for their invasion of northern Iraq. The nation is already in chaos, Turkish troops will only add fuel to the fire - and already twelve have lost their lives.

Turkey should withdraw immediately, it has no place in entering Iraqi territory.

By the way - hate to break it to you, but the Turkish army isn't as hot as you're inferring it to be. If it really does continue to go deeper into Iraqi territory, it will face resistance in Iraqi Kurdistan, and Turkey will simply be in the same position as American troops in the south of the country.

First off we havent even entered iraq yet. And second off, we arent in there to fight civilians, our issue is with the PKK. We know where there camps, training grounds, and etc.. All we gonna do is attack, destroy and get out. Unlike the US we dont have our eyes on oil, money or watever. WE just want the PKK silenced

[Reazzurro90]

First off we havent even entered iraq yet. And second off, we arent in there to fight civilians, our issue is with the PKK. We know where there camps, training grounds, and etc.. All we gonna do is attack, destroy and get out. Unlike the US we dont have our eyes on oil, money or watever. WE just want the PKK silenced

Yes, because just because you've made it so clear-and-cut now everything will go well...right?

Man, let's get serious. If the Turkish government announces that they are preparing to launch an offensive in northern Iraq, why the hell should anyone demonstrate against the PKK's "pre-emptive" attack that just happened? That's ridiculous.

Secondly, don't feed me the nonsense about the USA "seeking oil", because if that was a fact, there are much better candidates to choose than Iraq, believe me. If oil were an issue, I doubt the USA would be struggling with high oil prices, as I can confidently tell you that we are over here.

Thirdly, if you say that money isn't an issue - then you're lying to yourself. Don't put the Turkish government on a pedestal that they're simply working to "help their people." If you're going to accuse the US of occupying because of money, then don't you dare defend Turkey's actions as justifiable or even commendable.

[Fenerliyim]

lol r u honestly telling me the US did not go into Iraq for oil? Even Greenspan in his book said the USA is there for the one main reason. Wat did the US do when they first get there? Save the oil fields ofcourse.

There are not better candidates than Iraq, please. Look it at it, how many of the others had a leader who was killing his own people, or constantly made it look like they had weapons of mass destruction. Where r these WODs that America went in for?

If ur telling me America went into Iraq cause it cares about Iraqi people's freedom then ur dummer than that South Carolina Beauty Queen.

And if i said it once i've said it a million times, we have not and never will invade Iraq for money, we want the protection of our people and that means invading iraq and killing of the 3500 PKK soldiers in the mountains we will do so.

If we wanted money, we would have invaded northern iraq ages ago.

[Fenerliyim]

O and Turkey was not getting ready for an attack on Iraq just yet, we still had a meeting in November with Iraqi officials on wat they were gonna do. All the turkish leaders did was get an approval from congress to go into Iraq if they needed to. No where did they say they were gonna.

[SiN]

http://fotoanaliz.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/YeniFotoAnaliz/Hedefteki%2012%20terörist%20-%2019%20Ekim%202007/1.jpg

This was a proud moment of my life :D

[aslanlar]

Why choose Iraq for oil? 1, because they have a lot (ok, not the most in the world) and 2, because THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE TO GET IN THERE.

How are Turkeys actions not justifiable. We are being attacks and we are stopping A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION! Tell me how that is not justifiable.
The 12 soldiers dead today was not because of the war, it was just yet another example of the PKK attacks on Turkey. We have not invaded yet.
And another thing, i think you are seriously undermining the strength of the Turkish army. One of the best countries in the world (excluding nuclear weapons), behind the US, Britain, Russia, China probably...

How do you say we have no place in Northern Iraq? Is it because we'd upset American interests? We're invading to stop terrorism. Something which the US and Iraq aren't doing!
Use your logic...

[SiN]

Reazzurro90 you are just blabbing on about things we already know that make no difference to our invasion whatsover. We will not stand idley by and watch our people get killed by extremists. Open your eyes and ears and look at whats going on around you. Its been a good 5 years since the 2nd Gulf war started and america says they will be there for at least another 10 years, what a load of rubbish, why would they travel half way around the world just to free iraq of a tyrant? why would they risk there own men and money for that. and now that they have got rid of saddam why arent they leaving?

TURKEY WILL DO THERE JOB AND LEAVE.

[poutismalakas]

TURKEY WILL DO THERE JOB AND LEAVE.
Just like in Cyprus huh! Turkey goes in and takes over 1/3 of the island and immediately starts bringing in Mainland Turks to prop up the pop.!! Don't tell me that won't happen in Northern Iraq!?

[aslanlar]

Oh you're bringing up Cyprus huh? Under the Treaty with Turkey greece and Britain, wasn't it Greece that broke this treaty and acted agressivly, and wasn't it allowed (under the rules of the treaty) for Turkey to intervene.

Let alone all the muslim slaughterings the greeks commited. Who says we want Northern Iraq as territory? No no, even better question. (apart from you being greek) Why would u suspect Turkey of wanting that territory. Is it not justified in your opinion to stop these terrorists? Please do answer me...

[Fenerliyim]

Just like in Cyprus huh! Turkey goes in and takes over 1/3 of the island and immediately starts bringing in Mainland Turks to prop up the pop.!! Don't tell me that won't happen in Northern Iraq!?

Like Aslanlar said, it was Greece who was planning coup in the country, Turkey went there to stop it and protect our citizens and deservedly so and we will stay there till they are safe.

[Panathinaikos2]

Oh you're bringing up Cyprus huh? Under the Treaty with Turkey greece and Britain, wasn't it Greece that broke this treaty and acted agressivly, and wasn't it allowed (under the rules of the treaty) for Turkey to intervene.Actually Turkey violated the International Treaty of Guarantee becuase the treaty states specifically that any intervention into Cyprus by Turkey, Greece or Britain must be for the "sole aim" of restoring the government of Cyprus. Oviously this was not Turkey's goal as after the collapse of Sampson, the Turkish military still remained in Cyprus and ethnicly cleansed 200,000 Greek Cypriots from northern Cyprus!

[Fenerliyim]

we didnt ethnically cleanse anyone

[Panathinaikos2]

edit..

[Fenerliyim]

yea yea yea, get ur greek propaganda

[Panathinaikos2]

"Crisis on Cyprus", A Study Mission Report prepared for use of the Subcommittee to Investigate Problems Connected with Refugees and Escapees of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, 93rd Congress, 2nd session, October 14, 1974.


There are today two stark realities on Cyprus. The first is the presence of an army of occupation---approximately 40,000 heavily armed Turkish troops. The second is the humanitarian crisis confronting over 282,000 Cypriots---nearly half the population of the island---who are now refugees, civilian detainees, prisoners of war, or others in need of humanitarian assistance, on both sides of the uncertain cease-fire line. Regrettably, there is too little understanding outside of Cyprus as to the consequences of the invasion and conditions in the field. To comprehend what has happened to Cyprus---and especially to appreciate how central the resolution of humanitarian issues is to a settlement of the Cyprus problem---it is important at the outset to review current refugee and related humanitarian problems on the island.

1. HUMANITARIAN CONSEQUENCES OF THE INVASION

As Table 1 outlines, there are several categories of displaced per- sons and other people in need of help. The first, and by far the largest category, are the Greek Cypriot refugees in the Government controlled area of the south. Official statistics in the field estimate that at least 200,000 Greek Cypriots have been displaced from Turkish occupied areas. Some 30,000 of these people have found shelter with relatives or friends, and need a minimum of relief assistance. The remainder, how- ever, have needed shelter as well as general relief. In addition to these "semi-permanent" refugees, thousands of other Greek Cypriots, living in areas bordering the ceasefire line, have been temporarily displaced, because of actual Turkish troop movements in their area or the fear and threat of new military operations by Turkish forces.

..................Yet the refugees continued to come that day---by the hundreds. The night before the fall of Famagusta, some 8,000 refugees came into the forest area, and in the days that followed some 7,000 more arrived. It was, for many, a first stop before moving onward, but over 9,000 refugees were still encamped last month under the trees. Before long, the winter cold and rains will come, and a major question for the refugees is whether tents will arrive in time, or other shelter will be found.

[Panathinaikos2]

Shortly before dawn 32 years ago today, heavily armed Turkish troops landed on the northern coast of Cyprus launching the invasion and subsequent occupation of Northern Cyprus. Over the next 2 months, over 200,000 Greek Cypriots, an overwhelming 82 percent of the island's population, were forced to seek refuge in the southern Greek controlled portions of Cyprus. Turkey eventually called a ceasefire after seizing 37 percent of the island. To this day Turkey is the only country that recognizes the self-declared "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus."


US STATE SENATE

[Fenerliyim]

being relocated is not the same as being ethnically cleansed

[Panathinaikos2]

being relocated is not the same as being ethnically cleansedDefinition of ethnic cleansing from dictionary.com:

ethnic cleansing
n. The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.

[Centarfor9]

being relocated is not the same as being ethnically cleansed

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


hhahahaaha

it's NOT????? lol

[Fenerliyim]

Ethnic Cleansing usually used to mean genocide of ethnic groups, and that is wat i thought u meant, the word did after all orginate from when the muslims in the balkans were ethnically cleansed aka murdered by serbs.

U should make it clear wat u mean since it is usually understood as genocide.

[Panathinaikos2]

Well I thought you knew what ethnic cleansing fully means but whatever. I'll be more clear next time :rolleyes:

[Fenerliyim]

well since almost everybody near turkey claims genocide i assumed u were sayin that again

[Panathinaikos2]

delete this post

[Bosnian Unit]

I just want to say GO TURKEY !

[Centarfor9]

http://img.iht.com/images/2007/10/21/21turkey550.jpg A protest in Izmir, Turkey, on Sunday after Kurdish rebels killed Turkish soldiers near the Iraqi border.


http://img.iht.com/images/mobile/mobile_logo.gif (http://www.iht.com/)
Iraq and Turkey see tensions rise after ambush
By Sabrina Tavernise

Sunday, October 21, 2007

ISTANBUL: A brazen ambush by Kurdish militants that left at least 12 Turkish soldiers dead touched off a major escalation in Turkey-Iraq tensions on Sunday, bringing fears that Turkey would retaliate immediately by sending troops across the border into Iraq. But Turkey's prime minister said he delayed a decision, after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice personally intervened.

The ambush by a large group of Kurdish militants about three miles from the border with Iraq early on Sunday was seen as a direct provocation on the part of the militants, who have increasingly staged raids into Turkey from hide-outs in the mountains of northern Iraq.

It was the most serious attack in recent memory by the militants, separatist fighters of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, and came only four days after Turkey's Parliament formally approved contingency plans for military retaliation across the border.

Such action by Turkey, a NATO ally, would be extremely embarrassing for the United States, which has military control over the territory that the Turks are threatening to invade. Moreover, a Turkish advance into northern Iraq would instantly bring fresh troubles to a country where the United States is preoccupied with trying to manage a civil war. And it would most certainly complicate stability in the broader region, which is generally antagonistic to American policy. Iran made remarks criticizing American policy on Sunday. Syria did the same four days before.

Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, convened an emergency security meeting with Turkey's top officials on Sunday night, in Ankara, Turkey's capital, to discuss an appropriate response.

Rice called him shortly before the meeting began and asked him to "allow us a few days," Erdogan said on national television. Turkey's Parliament this week granted authority to Erdogan's government to take military action in Iraq, a maneuver that was largely seen as a last-ditch effort to press the United States to act against the Kurdish militants.

"She expressed their seriousness in this matter by not only saying that they assessed the issue in a highly sensitive way," Erdogan said of his conversation with Rice, "but also, beyond emphasizing our righteousness, she said, 'allow us few days.'"

There was no immediate comment from Rice about the exchange, but earlier in the day the Bush administration strongly condemned the Kurdish militant ambush. Sean McCormack, a State Department spokesman, did not return telephone messages for comment on Sunday night. The confrontation has brought Turkish-American relations to their lowest point in years. Turkey says the United States should do more to help fight the Kurdish group, which has killed nearly 40 Turkish soldiers in recent weeks in cross-border raids.

The Turkish military struck back inside Turkey on Sunday, killing as many as 32 Kurdish militants, a government spokesman said. But the Kurdish ambush still drew strong public outrage here, and its brazenness could effectively force the government to make good on its warning to send forces into northern Iraq.

Protesters marched in several cities, including Samsun on the Black Sea and Istanbul. In central Turkey they broke windows in offices of the main Kurdish political party. "With this incident, the arrow left the bow," Armagan Kuloglu, a retired Turkish major general, said in a telephone interview. "No room is left for the government to hesitate, postpone or fail to launch a cross-border operation."

In another attack, apparently by Kurdish militants, a minibus in a Turkish wedding convoy struck a bomb, wounding 17 civilians, according to the state-run Anatolian News Agency.

Erdogan used diplomatic language to say that a final decision about retaliation had not yet been made. He said that Turkey would wait until all "military requirements" had been met. "The government will use this authority when the military requirements exist," he said. "When requirements do not exist, such a step cannot be taken on emotional ground, because some people request or wish for it."

He said he expected the United States to take "swift steps" against the militants.

Turkey has worked hard to avoid military action, said a Western official, because it knows that an offensive would damage relations with the United States as well as Turkey's bid to join the European Union, a goal Erdogan's government has aggressively pressed.

"We don't want to go into northern Iraq — it's a mess," said Suat Kinikli, a lawmaker from Erdogan's party and a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. "We are a country negotiating with the European Union."

But Sunday's ambush on Turkish troops was carried out by a much larger force than the PKK typically uses, the Western official said, and appeared aimed squarely at drawing Turkey into conflict.

"I think we've passed the threshold," Kinikli said. "It looks like for two days or three days there will be a holding off and a waiting period. Unless the U.S. comes up with something magic in the next few days, which is highly unlikely, we'll probably go in."

Turkey's defense minister, Vecdi Gonul, speaking to reporters in Kiev after talks with Defense Secretary Robert Gates, played down plans for swift military action against the Kurdish militants. "We have plans to cross the border, however, not immediately," Turkey's Anatolian agency quoted Gonul as saying.

The United States has pressed Iraqi officials to take the problem seriously in recent months. Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki of Iraq visited Turkey in August, and the two countries concluded a security agreement in September, though the regional Kurdish government, headed by Massoud Barzani, repudiated it.

But Turkish officials said Sunday that rhetoric would no longer help. "Statements on terror will not satisfy us," Cemil Cicek, a government spokesman, said in a televised news conference. "In terms of statements, there has been nothing left unspoken. We expected and will expect firm steps from our counterparts. At this point, there is no importance of anything said by anyone."

The White House said, "Attacks from Iraqi territory need to be dealt with swiftly by the Iraqi government and the Kurdish regional authorities."

The American ambassador in Turkey, Ross Wilson, said, "I have been shocked by the news reports today." Iraqi leaders sent mixed signals. After a meeting with Barzani, President Jalal Talabani, who is a Kurd himself, called on the PKK to lay down its arms and leave, a command that brought a skeptical response from Erdogan.

"These assessments of Talabani do not personally satisfy me," he said. "It is beautiful to say such words. The expressions are beautiful. But we would like to see what its outcome is going to be."

At the same time, Talabani seemed to shrug off Turkish requests that the Iraqis hand over PKK leaders hiding in northern Iraq.

"The leaders of PKK do exist in Kurdistan's rugged mountains, but the Turkish Army with all its power could not stem or arrest them, so how can we?" he said after the meeting which took place in Sulaimaniya in northern Iraq.

"Handing over PKK leaders to Turkey is a dream that will never be realized."
He said, "We are looking for peace, not war, and to solve problems peacefully," but added tartly, "We will not hand any Kurdish man to Turkey, even a Kurdish cat."

Iraq's foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, said in an interview that there were a number of steps Iraq could take short of military action against the PKK militants, including disrupting their activities, interdicting shipments of weapons and denying them supplies of food.

"Yes, there are responsibilities on our side," he said. "Turkey has some legitimate security concerns over the PKK So come let's sit down and talk with the United States."

Details of the attack, which took place near the village of Daglica, were still unclear. Turkey's private NTV television reported that the Turkish soldiers died when the Kurds blew up a bridge as a military convoy was passing, but the government did not confirm that account. The Kurds claimed on a Web site that they captured eight soldiers, but the claim could not be substantiated.

The military said only that the attack took place "in three locations" shortly after midnight, and listed the names of 12 Turkish soldiers who had been killed. It said in a statement that it had continued to monitor the area where the PKK fighters fled, and that it had been firing at 63 "possible targets."

"Possible repercussion of such an operation on our relations with the U.S., or the European Union, or economy are now of secondary importance behind our national security and well-being," Kuloglu said.

Voters Back Turkish Changes

ANKARA, Turkey, Oct. 21 (Reuters) — Voters on Sunday resoundingly approved a referendum on constitutional changes that include elections of future presidents by the people instead of Parliament.

Preliminary results showed 69 percent of voters approved the referendum proposed by Erdogan's governing party, while 31 percent voted no, but turnout was low for Turkey at just two- thirds.

Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/22/europe/22turkey.php?page=1

Reporting was contributed by Sebnem Arsu in Istanbul; Alissa J. Rubin, Qais Mizher and Khalid al-Ansary in Baghdad; an Iraqi employee of The New York Times in Sulaimaniya; and Sheryl Gay Stolberg in Washington.

[aslanlar]

Yes we invaded Cyprus. Why? Because Greece wanted Cyprus to be unified with mainland Greece. Now, under the rules of the treaty, tell me, is that 'wrong'?
Yes, it is.
So now, why did Turkey invade Cyprus, apart from the obvious fact that we were protecting the Turks there? We were not trying to gain land, as Turkey do not consider it part of Turkey (1 of few countries which recognize it, as u said) and thus our actions can't be constituted as an attempt to aquire the land. Our main reason was that Turkey just wanted to piss Greece off, to put it simply. When greece acted aggressivly, Turkey became the 'international police', and stopped the greek attempt to aquire the land.

Again, just remember, who started the whole thing? Quite clearly, Greece.
...You greeks, always aggressive:D

[poutismalakas]

Yes we invaded Cyprus. Why? Because Greece wanted Cyprus to be unified with mainland Greece. Now, under the rules of the treaty, tell me, is that 'wrong'?
Yes, it is.
So now, why did Turkey invade Cyprus, apart from the obvious fact that we were protecting the Turks there? We were not trying to gain land, as Turkey do not consider it part of Turkey (1 of few countries which recognize it, as u said) and thus our actions can't be constituted as an attempt to aquire the land. Our main reason was that Turkey just wanted to piss Greece off, to put it simply. When greece acted aggressivly, Turkey became the 'international police', and stopped the greek attempt to aquire the land.

Again, just remember, who started the whole thing? Quite clearly, Greece.
...You greeks, always aggressive:D
Ok then what about your half of the Tready to allow Greeks to stay in Constantinopolis/Istanbul???? How come there are ONLY 5000 elderly Greek Christians left?


The Istanbul Pogrom (also known as Istanbul Riots; Greek: Σεπτεμβριανά (Events of September); Turkish: 6–7 Eylül Olayları (Events of September 6-7)), was a pogrom directed primarily at Istanbul's 100,000-strong Greek minority on September 6 and 7, 1955. Jews and Armenians living in the city and their businesses were also targeted in the pogrom, which was orchestrated by the Demokrat Parti-government of Turkish Prime Minister Adnan Menderes. The events were triggered by the false news that the house in Thessaloniki, Greece, where Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was born in 1881, had been bombed the day before.[1]

A Turkish mob, most of which was trucked into the city in advance, assaulted Istanbul’s Greek community for nine hours. Although the orchestrators of the pogrom did not explicitly call for Greeks to be killed, between 13 and 16 Greeks (including two Orthodox clerics) and at least one Armenian died during or after the pogrom as a result of beatings and arsons.[2]

Thirty-two Greeks were severely wounded. In addition, dozens of Greek women were raped, and a number of men were forcibly circumcised by the mob. 4,348 Greek-owned businesses, 110 hotels, 27 pharmacies, 23 schools, 21 factories, 73 churches and over a thousand Greek-owned homes were badly damaged or destroyed.[2]

Estimates of the economic cost of the damage vary from Turkish government's estimate of 69.5 million Turkish lira (equivalent to 24.8 million US$[3]), the British diplomat estimates of 100 million GBP (about 200 million US$), the World Council of Churches’ estimate of 150 million USD, and the Greek government's estimate of 500 million US$.[2]

The pogrom greatly accelerated emigration of ethnic Greeks from the Istanbul region, reducing the 200,000-strong Greek minority in 1924 to just over 5,000 in 2005.[4]

Turks of Western Thrace (Turkish: Batı Trakya Türkleri; Greek: Τούρκοι Δυτικής Θράκης - Turki Dhitikis Thrakis; Bulgarian: Западнотракийски турци - Zapadnotrakiyski turtsi) form a minority group in Greece, traditionally settled in the Western Thrace region of Greece, which is composed of the three prefectures (Xanthi, Rhodope and Evros) out of five of the Greek periphery East Macedonia and Thrace. According to official sources, they number approximately 50,000, out of the approximately 98,000 Thracian Muslims recorded in the 1991 census.[1] The size of the Muslim minority as a whole (as well as the Turkish identifying component) may be slightly different according to various NGOs. According to Human Rights Watch, the Muslim minority numbers between 80,000 and 120,000 (1999), and they will tend to attribute "Turkishness" to the entire minority.[2][3]

Within the larger definition of Muslim minority, Turks of Western Thrace were exempted from the 1922-1923 Exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey and were recognized special rights within the framework of Lausanne Treaty, such as education in the Turkish language.

[PAO_HELLAS]

Again, just remember, who started the whole thing? Quite clearly, Greece. ...You greeks, always aggressive:D

Yeah, Greeks started the whole thing. Turks were in this area for thousands of years while Greeks came from central Asia a millenium ago and starting slaughtering and conquering. Yeah, right :rolleyes: .

I don't have a provocative mood, but you started talking about the whole thing, that's why I was forced to give such and anwser.

I never said that the Turks must be send back where they came from.... As things became we have to find a solution so all the peoples of this area affected (Greeks, Slavs, Turks, Armenians, Kurds) will be able to leave peacefully terrible without things like the ones taking place today.
But I will also never stand hearing provocations like yours by Turks. Who would imagine that Turks would be complaining today about "genocides of Turks" after all these past events.... That they will be blaming Greece as the only agressor and provocator regarding the Greek-Turkish relations after all these past events.... So ironic.... I guess you are reading a lot of pages like this: http://www.greekmurderers.net :rolleyes:

[Fenerliyim]

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=125206

Barzani the iraqi president, who is kurdish by the way has refused to give over the PKK leaders. If hes not gonna do it then we'll have to end up doing with force.

Turkish leaders said they will try diplomatic ways first but if those dont lead to any solutions we are gonna go in

[Fenerliyim]

Monday, Oct. 22, 2007
Turkey's War Drums Grow Louder
By Pelin Turgut/Istanbul

Dozens of Turkish military trucks rumbled towards the Iraqi border as Turks across the country took to the streets to demand retaliation for an attack by Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) separatists based in north Iraq that killed 12 Turkish soldiers. It was the third large-scale attack in recent weeks. Eight Turkish soldiers are still missing after the incident. Sunday's attack may well prove the last straw for Turkey's hawkish military — NATO's second largest army after the U.S. — which has been readying to cross the border into north Iraq in pursuit of the PKK for several months. Public outrage over a mounting death toll finally led Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to approve an incursion last week. Meanwhile, U.S. and Iraqi diplomats are trying frantically to come up with a non-military solution.

Following Sunday's attack, the military said it had launched an offensive along the border, where Turkey already has some 100,000 troops, backed by tanks, F-16 fighter jets and attack helicopters. On Monday, a convoy of 50 military vehicles, loaded with soldiers and weapons, was seen heading toward the border, according to the Associated Press. In Istanbul, the capital Ankara and the port city of Mersin, thousands of protestors, wearing black ribbons and waving the Turkish flag, denounced the PKK attack. Across the country, public events and celebrations (including a concert by the American pop star Beyonce in Istanbul) were canceled to mourn the army deaths.

Until last year, the PKK seemed to have all but faded as an armed movement. The group spoke of democratic struggle and improved cultural rights. However, since then, observers say, the group's hawkish wing has taken over and now wants to draw Turkey into north Iraq. Any incursion is potentially treacherous and could lead Turkey into a quagmire much like the U.S. is facing in the rest of Iraq. The PKK's Kandil Mountain stronghold is notoriously rugged terrain well suited to guerrilla warfare. Air strikes alone are unlikely to be effective against it. A major land offensive, depending on how deep Turkish troops venture and in what numbers, could lead beyond fighting the PKK, to clashes between Turkish troops and Iraqi Kurdish soldiers, as well as civilian casualties.

Worse, Turkish public fury has now found a second target in the Kurdish regional government of north Iraq, which popular opinion in Turkey has accused of harboring the PKK. Opposition politicians have called on the military to declare the Iraqi Kurdish administration an "enemy" and target them in any operation. Turkey is already deeply suspicious of Iraq's Kurds and their progress over the past four years toward creating an independent Kurdish state, which could in turn foment unrest among its own Kurdish population. "From this point on, our barrels are pointed at [Iraqi Kurdish leader Massoud] Barzani," wrote Ertugrul Ozkok, chief editor of the top-selling Hurriyet newspaper. "We must tell Barzani. 'You have two options. Either you can be our neighbor or our enemy.'"

Iraqi Kurds appear to be relying on Washington to intervene, but the U.S. is caught between a rock and a hard place. North Iraq is the only relatively stable region in that country and the Kurds there are its only allies. Washington has repeatedly urged respect for Iraq's sovereignty. At the same time, however, Turkey is one of the biggest U.S. allies — the only mainly Muslim NATO member and a key player in a volatile region that Washington cannot risk alienating. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice asked Ankara Sunday for "a few more days" and was told by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to "take speedy steps." But with war drums beating and a public hungry for revenge, it would take a major move, like a U.S. strike on PKK targets, or the capture and handover of several PKK leaders, to stop an imminent incursion. Neither appears likely.


I wouldnt want to be in N.Iraq anytime soon

[aslanlar]

To poutis.
What, we killed all the greeks? Or more likely, they all moved out, seeing as theres a large amount of greek resentment here in Turkey, just like there is in greece (don't even try to deny it).
Also, Jews weren't targetted, the Ottoman Empire has always liked the Jews, and our relationship with Israel today shows that.

At pao-hellas. Yeh, you greeks DID start the whole thing. The hittite empire was in anatolia this whole time, but then you greeks came and conquered it, and then claimed it as your land. GREECE AND ANATOLIA BACK TO THE HITTITES NOW PPL!
My last comment "you greeks, always agressive" was sarcastic, sorry if you took it offensively. However, in the Cypriot conflict, it was Greece which acted first.

[PAO_HELLAS]

At pao-hellas. Yeh, you greeks DID start the whole thing. The hittite empire was in anatolia this whole time, but then you greeks came and conquered it, and then claimed it as your land. GREECE AND ANATOLIA BACK TO THE HITTITES NOW PPL!
My last comment "you greeks, always agressive" was sarcastic, sorry if you took it offensively. However, in the Cypriot conflict, it was Greece which acted first.

First of all Hittites never had presense in Greece, so I don't see why you wrote "Greece and Anatolia" in your sentence.

Secondly I don't think you got my logic. I said that I don't follow the logic "send everyone back where they belong/came from" which is a logic adopted by many people, but after all the events of these centuries you Turks don't have the right to say things like "Greeks started the whole thing", "Greeks, always aggresive" and complaining about so-called brutal genocides commited by Greeks against Turks. Numerous slaughters took place from both sides all these centuries, but you can't complain about genocides against you, genocides like the Pontian genocide. I am saying this in the case you were serious in all of what you said, and you were not joking.

About Cyprus, there is no doubt that the American guided dictatorship of Georgios Papadopoulos has the biggest responsibility for the invasion. They did many things on purpose and also many mistakes, that opened the road for the invasion - even after the invasion took place, there was not any serious reaction by Papadopoulos' government. But this does not justify the Turkish army illegally occupying the 1/3 of the country 33 years after.

I don't know how Cyprus and Greeks came in this conversation so I had to get involved, but I think the situation in the Turkish-Kurdish border this moment we are talking is ferbid and the thread has to focus on this. We will have time about other discussions when the situation becalms. That's why I am not going to continue talking about this for now. Hoscakal.

[aslanlar]

Give greece for compensation. What, killing off the hittites!
No, i was mostly joking with them obnoxious statements. Turkish/Greek conflict started with Turkish aggression. With the Seljuks defeating the byzantines in 1071.
However, that's hardly enough reason for 1000 years of resentment of the Turks. Who said i was complaining about genocides? War is war. Trying to eradicate a complete 'people' is both pointless and a waste of resources, including lives (in the case of the aggressor as well).
Sure Turkey is justified by an invasion of Cyprus. Or atleast, Turkish Cypriots would think that way (wouldn't they?). Why would they want to be under Greek rule instead of cruising along as a normal Cypriot? Plus, i wouldn't call it illegal after what Greece did.
As for your last paragraph. Smart decision. Gurusuruz ;)

[Fenerliyim]

How come Turks are never allowed to complain about genocides done against them?

[el Turco]

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/kurdistan/kurdistan.gif

google it


Look at the site you got that picture from. shalomjerusalem.com :rolleyes:

And, look what I found in CIA's world factbook! Do you see any Kurdistan on that map Mr Sinter???

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/maps/tu-map.gif

Dont provoke people with stupid, unofficial maps!

[el Turco]

Well,, thats because you invade their land, and how could we see a kurdish country in middle east then ? this is invasion/ occupation, that turkey iran and iraq did to Kurdistan !!!!

think about it... the kurds have their point, they simply want their land back !


What a way of thinking... wow, i'm impressed by your logic.

Could you please tell me when in the history did a country named Kurdistan exist???

[el Turco]

It is Kurdish land BECUASE Kurds still live there!!! You can't licked them out of their land like you did to my friend's Mother When she and her Family had to flee Turkey to Greece in the Istanbul Pogrom of 1955.

So, just because Mexicans still live in Texas and California, those two states should be part of Mexico???

[SiN]

This is becoming ***king ridicoulous i cant beleive the level of stupidity people have and what they would do in order to convince people that the PKK are not terrorists and that there is such a place called Kurdistan.

[aslanlar]

@Fenerleyim. There was never any Turkish genocide. There was just Christians cleansing Muslims (Turks) from europe ;)

[Centarfor9]

Look at the site you got that picture from. shalomjerusalem.com :rolleyes:

And, look what I found in CIA's world factbook! Do you see any Kurdistan on that map Mr Sinter???

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/maps/tu-map.gif

Dont provoke people with stupid, unofficial maps!
http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/IraqKurdistan_2003-2005_sm.gif

no Mr. El Turco there exists Kurdistan in Iraq (for now-at least)

from: http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/maps.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan

Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) (http://www.krg.org/)

[SiN]

There is no such country as Kurdistan, i dont know what your on about Sinter.

[aslanlar]

There is no such country, but there is an area where Kurds wish there was a country. And in Iraq, there is a kurdish state.

[Centarfor9]

^ yeah it's called Iraqi Kurdistan

[el Turco]

^ yeah it's called Iraqi Kurdistan

But it's not an independent country. It is a part of Iraq!

[plato-ny]

Again, just remember, who started the whole thing? Quite clearly, Greece.
...You greeks, always aggressive:D

Greeks always aggressive??? Turkey is the country that has a history of genocides and invasions, not Greece. Ottoman Empire invasion, Asia Minor genocides of Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds, and Cyrpus invasion.

[Fenerliyim]

no genocides that i know of, invasions yes but no genocides

[poutismalakas]

no genocides that i know of, invasions yes but no genocides
Oh the forced conversions of Christian youth and the rounding of Christian girls into the Harems doesn't count as ethnic cleasning or Cultural Genocide??

Why do you think that Turks don't look like their central asian cousins and look more like thier Aegean neighbors!!


FOr better or for worse I disagree with the invasion of Kurdish Iraq by the Turks! The only thing that will come of it is further destablising of the Iraqi people! It is bad enuff that Cheney and BUsh did NOTHING inregards to nation building except to pilliage Iraqi resources and American tax payers money, now you want to come in cause the ONLY place that is safe in Iraq to become unsafe???? I believe that the Turkeish government took a page out of the US' mo by putting itself in position to be attack ala Pearl Harbour so that they can justify going into Iraq!

[Centarfor9]

But it's not an independent country. It is a part of Iraq!
inshallah they will get their freedom

[Fenerliyim]

over the dead body of 80 million turks but thats only if they want any turkish land

[poutismalakas]

over the dead body of 80 million turks but thats only if they want any turkish land
I THOUGHT 20 million of those Turks where Kurds ;)

[Fenerliyim]

Oh the forced conversions of Christian youth and the rounding of Christian girls into the Harems doesn't count as ethnic cleasning or Cultural Genocide??

Why do you think that Turks don't look like their central asian cousins and look more like thier Aegean neighbors!!


FOr better or for worse I disagree with the invasion of Kurdish Iraq by the Turks! The only thing that will come of it is further destablising of the Iraqi people! It is bad enuff that Cheney and BUsh did NOTHING inregards to nation building except to pilliage Iraqi resources and American tax payers money, now you want to come in cause the ONLY place that is safe in Iraq to become unsafe???? I believe that the Turkeish government took a page out of the US' mo by putting itself in position to be attack ala Pearl Harbour so that they can justify going into Iraq!

we didnt force anyone to convert, Ottoman Empire was one of the most accepting empires there ever was, thats y the Ottoman Empire was able to survive for so long. I mean yea they made u pay a tax for not being muslim but isnt that better then either saying be muslim or else u die? almost every other empire forced peopled to convert especially the christian empires.

We didnt attack them, they attacked us, they started it, we will end it

[Fenerliyim]

I THOUGHT 20 million of those Turks where Kurds ;)

A majority of kurds in turkey are turk first kurdish second. This is the misconception by most people thinking that all kurds want a kurdistan. This is not so, only a minority of the kurds in turkey actually do support the PKK and their ideas.

[el Turco]

So, just because Mexicans still live in Texas and California, those two states should be part of Mexico???

poutis,i guess u forgot to answer my question. :)


sinter, im not taking you seriously anymore. Go have fun with your terrorist buddies.

[el Turco]

This is the misconception by most people thinking that all kurds want a kurdistan. This is not so, only a minority of the kurds in turkey actually do support the PKK and their ideas.

Exactly....

There is a lot of Kurdish people in Turkey that are against PKK. There is also many Kurds that have been killed by PKK.

PKK is a terrorist organization(even US says so), if anyone in this forum has any sympathy for any terrorist organization, it's pointless to discuss with that person.

[poutismalakas]

we didnt force anyone to convert, Ottoman Empire was one of the most accepting empires there ever was, thats y the Ottoman Empire was able to survive for so long. I mean yea they made u pay a tax for not being muslim but isnt that better then either saying be muslim or else u die? almost every other empire forced peopled to convert especially the christian empires.

We didnt attack them, they attacked us, they started it, we will end it
OO REALLY?? ever heard of the Janissaries?

The first Janissary units comprised war captives and slaves, selecting one in five for enrollment in the ranks (Pencik rule). After the 1380s Sultan Mehmet I filled their ranks with the results of taxation in human form called devshirmeh: the Sultan’s men conscripted a number of non-Muslim, usually Christian Balkan boys, taken at birth at first at random, later, by strict selection – to be trained. Initially they favoured Greeks, Armenians, Albanians (who also supplied many gendarmes), and Bulgarians, usually selecting about one boy from forty houses, but the numbers could be changed to correspond with the need for soldiers. Boys aged 14-18 were preferred, though ages 8-20 could be taken. Greeks formed the largest part of the Janissary units.
Janissaries trained under strict discipline with hard labour and in practically monastic conditions in acemi oğlan ("rookie" or "cadet") schools, where they were expected to remain celibate. They were also expected to convert to Islam. All did, as Christians were not allowed to bear arms in the Ottoman Empire until the 19th century. Unlike other Muslims, they were expressly forbidden to wear beards (a Muslim custom), only a moustache.

Devshirme (derived from Ottoman Turkish: devşirme, "collection, gathering"; called "collection of boys" or "blood tax" in Balkan countries in their native languages) was the systematic abduction of young boys from conquered Christian lands by the Ottoman sultans as a form of regular taxation in order to build a loyal slave army (formerly largely composed of war captives) and the class of (military) administrators called the "Janissaries", or other servants such as tellak in hamams. . Boys delivered to the Ottomans in this way were called ghilmán or acemi oglanlar ("novice boys").

[poutismalakas]

Anyway to get back on topic, I find strange that people who refuse to want a independant Iraqi Kurdistan would want to further destablise an already destablised Northern Iraq?????

[Centarfor9]

sinter, im not taking you seriously anymore. Go have fun with your terrorist buddies.
:lol: wtf?

you calling me a terrorist???

[Fenerliyim]

Poutis it says they were expected to, not forced to

[Centarfor9]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Kurds_-_Persian_Republics.PNG

is this true?

[Fenerliyim]

the map is very misleading

[poutismalakas]

the map is very misleading
why is it misleading? Because you disagree with it? If you look it say Kurdish minority and majority so may be accurate

[aslanlar]

@plato. Name 1 genocide by Turks. None? Ok, good, shut up then. Greeks have a history of expansion too, just none when the Turks came around. Pretty much cuz we defeated you in every battle (apart from when you had foreign intervention). The last few years where the Ottoman Empire was bankrupt is where you defeated us.

@Poutis. There was no forced conversions. Unlike every other empire i've ever heard of, the Ottomans let their subjects talk their own language and keep their own religion in the 'millet' system. Janisaries were forced to work for Turkey, but i'd think thats more humane then just killing off the conquered people and populating it with Turks, ye? Again, with boys so young, they could turn Muslim, but nothing was forced on them.
It's not about 'destabilizing' an area. It's about stopping terrorism. If iraq didn't want this, it could of stopped supporting the PKK ;)

@the map, it's gonna be funny if anyone believes that. Why not just say the world decended from Kurds and that they should aquire the US as compensation for never having a country ;)

[Centarfor9]

they are one of the older peoples

[poutismalakas]

@Poutis. There was no forced conversions. Unlike every other empire i've ever heard of, the Ottomans let their subjects talk their own language and keep their own religion in the 'millet' system. Janisaries were forced to work for Turkey, but i'd think thats more humane then just killing off the conquered people and populating it with Turks, ye? Again, with boys so young, they could turn Muslim, but nothing was forced on them.
It's not about 'destabilizing' an area. It's about stopping terrorism. If iraq didn't want this, it could of stopped supporting the PKK ;)

Oh so I suppose it is NOT considered forcing someone to change beliefs when you FORCIFULLY take them away from their mother and father and deny them access to their ture reiligon while promoting them to change their beliefs over to the beliefs of their master?:faint2: That sure sound like forcing someone to change their beliefs due to denying them access to thier people and religion!!!

What would you say if the us started to take Iraqi kids away to the us and give them over to nonMuslim parents who in turn would deny those kids access to their religion all the while taking them to CHurch, Synagoge every weekend! Denying someone one thing while giving them access to only what you want to give them sure sounds like corcersion to me!

[Panathinaikos2]

@plato. Name 1 genocide by Turks. None? Ok, good, shut up then. Greeks have a history of expansion too, just none when the Turks came around. Pretty much cuz we defeated you in every battle (apart from when you had foreign intervention). The last few years where the Ottoman Empire was bankrupt is where you defeated us.When the Ottomans took over Constantinople, Byzantium had already been very very weak from the crusades and its economic hardships! Had the crusades not happen, the Byzantines would have destroyed the Turkish invaders! And speacking of interventions, don't forget the huge amount of support the Ottomans had from the Egyptians after the Greeks liberated most of their land back from the Turks and without any western help during the Greek war of Independance!

[poutismalakas]

Ok back on topic! NO INVASION OF NORTHERN IRAQ!

[Toke-E-Yo]

theres enough ***kin shit in the world right now, and I dont think that everyone needs to deal with one more thing to be afraid of.

[Cihangir]

Ok back on topic! NO INVASION OF NORTHERN IRAQ!

Why does this concern you anyway? Israel got 2 of thier soldiers kidnapped and they invaded Lebanon for 30 days and killed civilians like rats! Now, PKK has 8 Turkish soldiers hostage and we lost 29 soldiers in two days by PKK raids OCCURED IN THE TURKISH S-O-I-L !

Turkey lost thousands (app 45.000) of civilians in the last 20 years and given (still giving) matyrs fighting this TERRORIST organization. Tho i think it would be rough for our economy to wage a war, Turkey has EVERY ***KING RIGHT TO INVADE IRAQ!

Shit, do we have to blow up a couple of skyscrapers dude!?

And do not ever talk about this issue when there is an active PKK camp in Greece.. Forgot the name i think it was starting with an L.. ?

Anyway, I do not like the idea of an invasion, plus Turkey has no intention to invade Iraq but we certainly say that our army will chase the terrorists on Iraqi soil. Iraq(USA) does not help us plus they want to block us.

And our government are such pussies so relax and lay off your anti-war cries, Turkey will not invade Iraq. It's all bullshit, creating a chaotic atmosphere and managing it -the USA style!

[aslanlar]

@Poutis. Yes we did take children forcefully. It was the 'tax' they paid for living under the Ottoman Empire and being kept safe. Again, it's better then conquering an area, slaughtering the native population, and repopulating it (ahem, N.America, Australia). Being a Janisary was regarded as highly honourable and many peasant families sent their sons in to become Janisaries (without the government even asking them to). Also, although most Janisaries were Islamic, many knew their origin and still held on too their Balkan/Slavic culture along with their religion. This was allowed and not prosecuted. Don't bring shit up if you don't know what you're talking about.

@pana. Are you kidding me? What triggered the first crusade? It was when the Turkic Seljuks defeated the 'invincible' Byzantine empire. Crusade after crusade, they tried to limit Turkic growth, along with recapturing the Holy land.
In the 1828 greek uprising, have a little think about which side Russia supported? This was a little more then 50 years before the Ottomans declared bankrupcy. We were in tatters, and the only reason we were still together was because no European power would let Russia conquer ex-Ottoman territory. So bravo, you defeated the Ottomans in like your 1000th attempt in 400 years for indipendance when we were already week.


Onto Iraq. We had a few air-raids on the mountains where the PKK happen. IMO, this must continue for a while, before we even consider going in. Lower their moral.

[Fenerliyim]

Oh so I suppose it is NOT considered forcing someone to change beliefs when you FORCIFULLY take them away from their mother and father and deny them access to their ture reiligon while promoting them to change their beliefs over to the beliefs of their master?:faint2: That sure sound like forcing someone to change their beliefs due to denying them access to thier people and religion!!!

!

Sounds to me like a lot wat the Spartans did as well. take away the kids at a young age.

but u guys were worse, killing of the weak ones, retarded ones, disabled ones.

[Fenerliyim]

Onto Iraq. We had a few air-raids on the mountains where the PKK happen. IMO, this must continue for a while, before we even consider going in. Lower their moral.

Yep do wat Germany did to the British in WWII, bomb the hell out of em, and best part is they got no airforce to retaliate and we wont be distracted by russia.

[PAO_HELLAS]

And do not ever talk about this issue when there is an active PKK camp in Greece.. Forgot the name i think it was starting with an L.. ?

Lavrion???

[SiN]

There is nothing you can say that will change my view about what has to be done here. And im sure all my turkish brothers will agree. We have sat back long enough and endured this bloodshed on our own soil. Why not fight back? Obviously diplomacy is not working with the PKK. We need to finish it once and for all.

[Cihangir]

Lavrion???

Yes, that's the one. Thanks lol.

[Cihangir]

As Sinan said, diplomacy is not working. Talabani refuses to identify PKK as a terrorist organization and he recently said that "if Turkey offers us a peace treaty and if we reject that offer, then you can call us terrorists." Now if you come from a country that has spent more than a half of it's lifetime fighting with terrorism, that shit is ***king ridiculous.
He is selfishly using a classical word trick to draw a "compromising" image for PKK, like they didn't start this shit with British support.

[el Turco]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071025/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_iraq

Turkey: US will not stop Iraq incursion


Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Thursday that U.S. objections would not stop Turkey from crossing into Iraq to eliminate Kurdish rebels. The Turkish military said it had killed more than 30 insurgents who were poised to launch an attack, near the Iraqi border.

President Abdullah Gul said Turkey is running out of patience with the Kurdish separatist attacks. A steady stream of U.S.-made Turkish fighter jets roared into the sky near the Iraqi border, apparently loaded with bombs.

The Turkish military said it had spotted a "group of terrorists" near a military outpost in the province of Semdinli close to the border with Iraq on Tuesday and fired on them with tanks, artillery and other heavy weaponry. It said the group had been preparing for an attack.

In a statement posted on its Web site, the military said the troops kept firing on the group as they escaped toward the Iraqi territory. The report increased the official number of rebels killed since Sunday to at least 64.

The rebels denied any casualties, calling the military statement a "lie," the pro-Kurdish Firat news agency said.

The Bush administration is urging Turkey not to launch an incursion that would destabilize Iraq's autonomous Kurdish north, Iraq's most stable region. But Erdogan said the U.S. desire to protect the north would not hinder Turkey's fight against the rebels from the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, who use mountain bases in Iraq to rest, train and get supplies in relative safety before returning to Turkey to carry out attacks against government forces in the heavily Kurdish southeast.

The Bush administration "might wish that we do not carry out a cross-border offensive, but we make the decision on what we have to do," Erdogan said during a visit to Romania. "We have taken necessary steps in this struggle so far, and now we are forced to take this step and we will take it."

He said that the U.S. should repay Turkish assistance for the invasion of Afghanistan with support for Turkey's struggle against the Kurdish rebels, who want autonomy in the southeast.

"Right now, as a strategic ally, the USA is in a position to support us. We have supported them in Afghanistan," he said.

An AP Television News cameraman saw two F-4 fighter jets flying low along the Iraqi border on an apparent reconnaissance mission, a day after warplanes reportedly pounded rebel positions along the border.

Fighter jets take off with their bomb-holding compartments' hatches closed when loaded. AP Television News cameramen said at least four Turkish F-16 warplanes left their air base in Diyarbakir on Thursday with closed hatches but returned with the hatches open. A batch of F-16s had taken off from the same base earlier in the day, as well.

More than 10 attack helicopters were seen flying in Hakkari province toward the Turkish-Iraqi border as government-paid village guards in camouflage, wielding AK-47s, patrolled roads leading to the border day and night.

The pro-Kurdish news agency Firat confirmed military operations near the border in Sirnak province have continued since Wednesday.

"We are totally determined to take all the necessary steps to end this threat," Gul said in Ankara before a visit by a delegation of high-level Iraqi officials. The officials arrived Thursday evening but did not talk to reporters.

Turkey is "expecting them to come with concrete proposals — otherwise, the visit will have no meaning," Foreign Minister Ali Babacan said.

The delegation is headed by Iraqi Defense Minister Abdul-Qader al-Obeidi and will include Minister of State for National Security Sherwan al-Waili, said Yassin Majid, an adviser to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.

"The political choice will be the first solution to solve the crisis. The Iraqi government insists on dialogue and cooperation to solve the crisis," Majid said.

Iraq has promised to shut down offices used by rebel bases. But Turkey wants Iraq and the U.S. to destroy the bases and extradite the rebel leadership to Turkey.

Turkey's top leadership has called for both an incursion and economic measures against northern Iraq if Turkey's demands are not met. The self-ruling Kurdish administration in Iraq's landlocked north relies heavily on Turkish investment and fuel imports.

Turkish troops have killed hundreds of Kurdish rebels since Jan. 1, the state-run Anatolia news agency said, citing military sources. It did not say how many Turkish soldiers have died, but about 30 troops have been killed this month alone.

On Sunday, a rebel ambush near the border killed 12 soldiers. Eight soldiers have been missing since then; the rebels say they are holding them hostage and have distributed photographs and video purportedly showing the captives.

U.S., Turkish and Iraqi officials are working to free the hostages, Matthew Bryza, the U.S. deputy assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, said at a meeting in Ankara of officials from Black Sea nations.

Firat reported that the rebel group said hostages were in good condition but that negotiations were ruled out for now.

Bryza also said Washington has increased the level of cooperation in intelligence sharing with Turkey.

"We have improved and increased our intelligence cooperation and sharing with Turkey," Bryza said. "We know we have to achieve concrete results. We are appalled by the attack and the hostage-taking. It is not acceptable."

He called the PKK "a problem for all the Black Sea community."

Turkey still seems willing to refrain from a major cross-border action until at least early next month, when it is scheduled to host foreign ministers in Istanbul to discuss Iraq.

Erdogan is expected to go to Washington afterward to meet with President Bush.

European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana urged Turkey and Iraq to find an amicable solution.

"We let them try to work out a solution between the two," Solana told reporters, adding he was ready to "help where necessary," to find a way to persuade Turkey to stay out of Iraq, which the EU and others fear could further destabilize t