what happened to all the quality ?

[Severus]

oh yeah, he's great and the other guy is fantastic but yet you lot, without your superstars couldn't even muster up enough skill to beat that superpower honduras in an elimination match ? how disgraceful ! the #2 ranked team in the world ... watta joke !

i honestly think now portugal is gonna have a better showing than brasil will in 2002. the portuguese in the toronto area can finally put their brasilian flags away and finally cheer their own team on.

[FANTA]

check out the line-up brazil used:

Brazil: Marcos; Luizao (Juninho Pernambucano 46), Juan, Cris; Belletti, Emerson, Eduardo Costa (Jardel 65), Junior; Alex (Juninho Paulista 46); Guilherme, Denilson

who are these guys ? no romario, no ronaldo, no rivaldo, no robero carlos, no cafu etc. looks something like a 3rd or 4th string side.

looks like they only take the big games seriously now.

as for portugal, if they wanted to, they could field one of the most talented attacking midfields i've ever seen.

figo - capucho - rui costa - conceicao

capucho is very underrated by everyone. he is an absolute weapon and anytime i watched a porto game last season i always saw capucho weaving his way through 3 or 4 defenders so easily everytime he decided to go for a run.

but i dunno where capucho will fit in with portugal because he's a winger and you can't have 3 wingers on the field. perhaps he can be a sub but portugal would be stupid not to give him a run now and then. he's 29 years old and only has something like 15 caps. what a waste !

[Mihajloviç]

Village idiot, once again, you display your soccer knowledge. You're here dissing probably the best national team ever , while you are from Canawho ? :D

Anyway bro, look at the names, their lineup consists of only 4 decent players, some even subbed of at half time, while one of them was sent off in the game, so please ... stop talking about something you know nothing of ... that'd be soccer in general.

[Severus]

fanta, it doesn't matter if it was their 10th string team playing. are you telling me that a lineup which consists of emerson, juninho, alex, denilson, jardel, belletti and junior couldn't beat honduras ? those 7 guys alone should've done the job.

first people rant about the brasilian youth and how CRAZZZY it is, but then when they have the chance to finally prove themselves and they fail - its because there was nobody on the field ???

my assessment ... if brasil needed rivaldo, carlos, cafu and the others to beat honduras then the problems brasil have are far greater than anyone of us can anticipate ! that's the bottom line.

[Severus]

Originally posted by Mihajlovic
Village idiot, once again, you display your soccer knowledge. You're here dissing probably the best national team ever , while you are from Canawho ? :D

but yet you're dissing canada when you're from ... canada ??? atleast i don't disrespect my own backyard. you seriously are suffering from some identity crisis son.

[Garrincha]

Brazil: Marcos; Luizao (Juninho Pernambucano 46), Juan, Cris; Belletti, Emerson, Eduardo Costa (Jardel 65), Junior; Alex (Juninho Paulista 46); Guilherme, Denilson

Well, well, well. What a piece of cr@p THAT match was. First: The major players, either refused to go to Colombia (Mauro Silva, Rivaldo, Romario) or had their presence denied by their European clubs (the german sides simply overlooked FIFA's rules and told Lucio, Ze Roberto and Elber to stay put in Germany, even tough they were called up). FIFA said the players should go, but the European clubs simply dismissed that. So Scolari (Brazil's coach) had to go with what he had, and the group, which isn't without talent, wasn't all it might have been. Having said that...

There are two major problems: Brazil dominated the first part of the match, and after a couple of chances were lost, the players relaxed, sort of "hey, we can win this match anytime we want!". Then , in mid-time, came the REALLY BAD managing decision: Scolari dropped one of the back three defs (Luizao) for attacking-mid Juninho, a quality player. This completely disorganized the defense, as the team slipped from a 3-5-2 that was WORKING defensively to a 4-4-2 that didn't. The team attacked, and suffered the first goal on a counterattack. Now, Brazil has been having a series of bad results, and the players really got scared when they saw the scoreboard 1-0 against them. They pulled up full force, but desperately, leaving wide spaces for the Honduras side to work, without any desperation. And BAM!, at the end we got another punch in the jaw.

Now, let's look at this squad: Of the back three defs, the ONLY ONE with quality for a first team place is Flamengo's Juan (the new Aldair). Eduardo Costa is COMPLETELY unqualified for ANY Brazilian team. Jardel seemed to be high on opium, as I doubt he even SAW the ball. And the guys who should have helped the team keep their cool were the most desperate - like Emerson and Junior. All in all, a pathethic display, a shameful result, and maybe a couple of lessons to be learned.

[Yacoob]

That's true. Brazil are supposedly the second best team in the world, and although we mainly used players from the second team, that's not an excuse for such a defeat. What worries me about the match isn't just how bad Brazil played or how uneffective they were, but it's the fact that their football federation CBF won't probably learn anything from this disaster.

Scholari have brought some consistency to the defence during his period, but what he failed to do was to strengthen the attacking power of the team, players like Denilson, Jardel and Alex doesn't have the same striking power of Ronaldo, Romario and Rivaldo. Brazil's attacks sucked, they lacked effectiveness. The strikers seemed clueless to how they were supposed to reach Honduras's net.

All in all, another dismal showing by Brazil. Currently, instead of saying that Portugal are the Brazilians of Europe, we should just wait until we can even call Brazil the Portugese of South America.

[Garrincha]

And let me add this, risking being considered insane by the rest of the board: I'm beginning to HOPE Brazil doesn't qualify. A few Brazilians are beginning to feel the same way.
Not because we're afraid of having humiliations like this happen in a World Cup. But because if we DO qualify, all the mistakes that are being done might get covered up and forgotten about.

Well... And besides, if the team carries on playing like they are now, humiliations are almost a certainty.

Some of these world-class, top-quality players we have appear to crumble under pressure. Like Alex and Junior, to name two. And though I regret to say this, as I'm a fan of this player, Emerson. When the going gets tough, Emerson gets vicious. And sent off. :mad: :( :bloody: :worried:

Ah, well. Does somebody think :ronaldo: is the solution to all woes? I don't.

[Severus]

i just find it overwhelming that brasil couldn't even rely on a team, mainly comprised of youngsters, to beat honduras. i bet honduras doesn't even make it to the end of the first half vs argentina's under20 team.

[Mato]

With a team where play guys like juninho paulista, juninho pernambucano, alex, emerson, jardel (even if he sucks, he still would be a star in honduras league as he did in portugal), denilson, guilherme, you would think they'd beat Honduras easily.
This results have nothing to do with the lineup.
There problem lies deeper, though I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it is the lack of planning and responsability of the people in charge of the Scratch, like the CBF, Texeira, and others.
Take a look at us (argentina). Our clubs are borderline to bankrupcy, the fixtures planned (better said", not planned) are chaotic, everything is screwed up. Except the national teams (senior and youth teams) are an oasis in the desert, cause things are handled otherwise.
I don't know much about Felipao's responsability (What is he like anyway? Is he a serious coach, not like luxemburgo?), but you need to have a strong presence in the bench in such a time of despair, someone to carry the responsability, be serious, professional, and on top be a good coach.
Your players need to get their faith back, to make sacrifacies for the team, to give all of themselves

[Mato]

If we end first in the classification playoff (as we surely will) and you guys end up out of the WC, well...... I WOULD LAUGH ALL THE WAY TILL COREA-JAPAN 2002, HEHEHE.

just a little joke....Tudo bem.

[Garrincha]

First: Felipão is a world-class coach, as was Luxemburgo. Their problems? Luxemburgo thought he was God's gift to world soccer. He's got an EGO bigger than Man Utd's bank account!

Luis Felipe Scolari, on the other hand, is LOVED by most players. They trust him, and he's very good - only with a very, very, veeery short fuse. This man is a hothead. But he's a winner, and I don't blame him (weeell, not entirely true: his substitutions on mid-time of the Brazil x Honduras match were mistaken, but I suppose he's only human :worried: ). The really bad mistakes were commited before he even got the job. Many players are showing poor psychological fitness, if you get what I mean.

Will we qualify? I'm not sure. For one thing, so far the Brazilian team hasn't played ONE MATCH with a supportive audience. When the National Team plays the away matches, the crowd's against them; and when the team plays AT HOME, the crowd's also against them!!! Why? Because most people here seem to demand top-class, eye-candy, superior-talent-performances EVERY MINUTE of the game! So, if the team hasn't scored (or at LEAST hit the post once or twice) within TEN MINUTES, the home audience begins to turn against them! How is ANY team going to perform under this kind of pressure?

And THAT, in my opinion, is one of the main reasons why Brazil might not qualify: The team ONLY plays "away games".

[Mato]

Hey, you know you're not the only ones who had to deal with that pressure.....I remember at the start of the past classification the whole stadium was shouting and whistling against our own players.
Even now when we're supposed to be relaxed and enjoy in most of the games at home, if 15 minutes go by and we haven't scored all the fans start mumbling and shouting.
Overpressure for succces is a thing we share......you gotta always win against all, and make it in a clear, decisive, and nice way. The three axioms in southamerican soccer: Win, Score a lot and entertain (Ganar, Gustar y Golear - las tres g)

[Garrincha]

It's the same thing with you guys? It's funny, that hadn't occurred to me. Chalk it up to our latin temperament, huh? (and that might be a good explanation for Portugal and Spain ALWAYS falling short of expectations on international competitions...)

You know another thing that Brazilian fans usually do, that I think is wrong? People think Brazil can't lose. And I mean EVER. When Brazil lost to Norway (in '97, with Zagallo as coach) everybody said it was shameful. When we lost to Nigeria, the papers said it was shameful. Everybody said it was also disgraceful when we lost to Cameroon in the Olympics, and when we recently lost to Mexico. Ditto for ANY defeat! It seems the only teams that it's NOT shameful to lose to are other Cup-winners, like Italy, Germany or Argentina! It's absurd, and shows VERY LITTLE understanding of the game (people seem to think we're still in 1958, when Brazil smashed everyone with 5-up scores) , not to mention little respect for any and all competition!

In my opinion, thias sort of attitude is not only wrong, but it leads right into disaster, as a team that dismisses the opposition is halfway defeated already, in modern soccer.

Are Argentinians like that too, Mato? I mean, what was the popular reaction when your team lost to the USA team in a recent Copa America ('97 I think, but not sure)?

[Mato]

Well, every time there's a defeat with the likes of Brazil vs Honduras the fans and the press are really harsh (maybe furious and agressive would suit it better:D) towards the players and the coach. I remember that when we lost against USA, even if we were playing with subs cause we were already classified to the next round, it was taken like a dishonor or shameful. (Though who's most remembered about that cup is Tulio :evil::D) I guess the worst one ever was the match against Cameroon in 90, the team and Bilardo really took a huge beating from everyone, including myself :D. As for if we think we cannot lose against anyone but the "bug guys", well it's about true here also. But since we don't share the same history in WCs, though we always had great players, older people tend to be humbler, especially after the disaster in Sweden 58, though the average argentinian thinks we have to beat'em all (IT WAS considered a disaster). But as for the new generation people, since the ones who lived the WC 78 and on, it's like you guys (I myself tend to be that way). Example: Younger people don't have the same respect for Brazil as older people do. Especially now when there's so much hype about us (perhaps a litlle too much), not only around the world, but especially here, most people think that if the WC was to be played now, we would already be champions. So whenever we loose or play badly (as it will happen, whenever it does), everyone will be complaining and wondering why.

So there you have it....we live, eat, dream and breathe soccer............. as you guys do hehe :D:p

[Garrincha]

Well, Brazil just beat Paraguay by 2 x 0 (at home), getting a better table position in the Qualifiers. Seems like we can grasp that place in the Cup after all, and hopefully things will take their logical course from now on. As logical as Brazilian soccer ever gets, but hey, this is who we are.

It was a match Brazil made more difficult than it actually was. The Paraguayan team seldom delivered decent offense, and their defense was motivated rather than solid. But the Brazilian eleven were emotional and tense, and strong tackling became frequent. Roberto Carlos and Chilavert particularly demonstrated no love lost between them, a private rivalry permeating their respective performances.

With only four minutes in the match, the ball was crossed from the right and met Marcelinho Paraiba's head before kissing the net. The team relaxed a bit, dominated the game for a while, then allowed Paraguay some time with the ball, which was enough for the Brazilians to get somewhat restless.

The game progressed; meanwhile, the ref (a german) decided not to award Paraguay an arguable penalty (did Rivaldo put his arm in the ball in the area? Or did the ball hit him?). By this time the Paraguayans were quite tense as well, and Chilavert looked like he was going to assault Juan after a common corner kick foul.

Eventually Denilson crossed another ball from the left, finding Rivaldo just where he should be, to head in the goal that closed the scoreboard. From there on, it was just running down the clock and letting go of the tension.

Next, we face Argentina. They apparently won't have Veron, which sounds good. And we'll supposedly get everybody we need - but the team who beat Paraguay hardly impresses.
Who knows? We might still pull some surprises.

Of course, if one could consider Brazil qualifying for the World Cup as a surprise...;)

[Yacoob]

The use of a German referee seemed like a bad decision to me, the referee didn't seem to know the South American soccer well, his decisions were more Europeanised than what we usually see in South American matches.

Scholari seemed to have started to find some solutions for Brazil's problems, the defence look solid now, even more than what we saw at Copa America, but the team is still struggling offensivly, and he returned to use Denilson in the right way, by bringing him from the bench when the defenders got tired to make full use of Denilson's great dribbling abilities, just like Zagalo did before.

I don't think Argentina will be a big threat for Brazil, our player's will be more motivated for that match, so expect better performance from the players, and you know, Argentina already qualified for WC, so they will probably rest their best players, that will give us a big advantage in the match.

[Severus]

big problem for you argentines if the WC was played now. you'd have to face us, the world's other hot team.

[Coringao]

Severus,

Yes Brazil CAN build two teams & beat the best of them out there. The quality is there. Time to train with all the players however is not.

Seeing that soccer is a team sport, this is the biggest hinderence right now & the frequent change of command, coaches.

Sorry but you are SEVERUSly wrong.

Best teams now are France, Argentina!!!! IMO

Brazil WILL improve under Scolari.

[Garrincha]

We probably will improve with Scolari, but the question is, will we improve in time for the upcoming WC? I doubt it.

It's too close. We'll probably be contenders, and if things work out well, we might even go all the way. But the team isn't what you might call "prepared". We might win DESPITE of that, just because our team, however disorganized, is still strong and soccer is generally crazy and unexpected. Argentina, France and Italy are the main candidates. Brazil is surely a force to be reckoned with, as I'm sure nobody will disagree.

But I'm beginning to think we're going to have a REALLY strong squad by WC 2006. There's a whole new generation brewing right now, and they might get hot just in time for Germany. Juan, Valdson, Rochemback, Julio Baptista, Giovanni, Adriano, Ewerthon, PSG's Ronaldinho, there's a whole bunch of kids (ages ranging from 19-22) who might be ripe for the next big one.

I love seeing this happen, you know? Continuously comin' up with new stars...:D That's Brazil fer ya.

[Coringao]

You said the key word there. TIME!!!

It seems like every WC. Brazil's coaches have less time to prepare with the whole team. Zagallo had less than a month with the full team before the WC.

If Scolari has enough time he can do it!!!

[Severus]

Originally posted by Coringao
Severus,

Yes Brazil CAN build two teams & beat the best of them out there.

sure, it showed in la copa america :)

[Garrincha]

Severus, I am also I bit tired of that "Brazil-can-field-two-world-class-squads" thing. Brazil can field two, maybe more, GOOD squads. So can the italians, and the british, and the french.

The Copa America team, however, does not count as an example, as it was more like the fifth or fourth team Brazil could field. Most everyone else were either denied by their European clubs; physically unfit; or simply refused to go, due to fear of Colombian guerrillas. That team is NOT Brazil's second best team.

If we try to make a squad made up of people not being called currently - THAT would be the second squad, as the current reserves are part of the FIRST squad, IMO, ruling out guys like Junior and Elber - we would have a team quite superior to the one that played the Copa America.

Let's see: The goalie might be São Paulo's Rogerio. Then on defense we'd field, say, Zago, Claudio Caçapa (Lyon) and Edmilson (Lyon). On midfield, Evanilson (now in Parma), Marcos Assunção (Roma), Zé Roberto (Leverkusen), Djalminha and Serginho (Milan). On attack, Amoroso (Dortmund) and Savio (Real Madrid) or Sonny Anderson (Lyon).

You'll notice I left out the players who actually WENT to Copa America, like Jardel. And I fielded an eleven based on coach Scolari's current tactics. Definitely superior to the Copa America team, no? But NOT AS GOOD as the first team. No way.

I'd like to add that some of the guys who went to the Copa America but aren't known worldwide, like Washington or Leo, are actually quite competent and even talented. Were they, say, Bolivian or Irish, they'd be national team starters for sure. I mean, I've seen Austria's Polster playing, and Washington is WAY better that that. Just not good enough for Brazil, Italy, Argentina or the likes.:dontcare:

[Coringao]

Severe,

Read the whole post. Don't just post tidbits that seem to support your arguement.

Given enough time, Brazil can build 2 very competent squads!!!

Copa America squad barely had a week to train together. It was more like a pick up game!!

However, seeing you do not support Brazil, I wonder why your preocupation on wether Brazil is strong enough.. blah blah blah

[Severus]

garrincha, if you're trying to convince me that a team that featured: juninho, junior, alex, juninho paulista, EMERSON, jardel denilson and belletti for most of the tournament was your 4th or 5th team, then better luck next time because i'm not convinced. this team whether it was your b or z team should still have beaten mexico and honduras of all teams no questions asked. well, on paper they should've. but then again, hype and brasil seem to go hand and hand nowadays don't they. my original arguement was that brasil are not as deep as the french, italians and argentines and nothing has led me to believe otherwise. oh and its easy to claim now that that horrific display of futbol was exhibited by your fifth team. betcha didn't think that when you thought you had a chance.

coringao, i'm not preoccupied with nothing but how well MY TEAM does. i was concerned with brasil possibly not making the cup because a finals wouldn't be complete without the brasilians. but if you ask me which team i'd rather my azzurri face in the finals - i wouldn't even hesitate picking brasil because they are considerably weaker than argentina and france because they are not strong in every position like the argentines, italians and the french.

ok ?

[Coringao]

Don't worry Brazil will qualify!!!!

Currently yes Brazil is in a weakened state. But like I said before, the talent is there. We just need to put the team together to start clicking as 1 unit.

I for one pick Brazil as one of the favorites in 2002.

Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Juan, Lucio, Junior, Emerson, Mauro Silva, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Juninho, Alex, Ronaldinho, Edilson, Rogerio, Marcos, Denilson, Elber, Ewerton, E. Costa, Juninho Pernambucano.

Just to name a few who are fighting for first team spots.

TIME will bring this team together and you will not want to face Brazil.

If you remember pre '94, Brazil was struggeling to qualify as well!!

You know what happened :-)

[Severus]

noticed i used the term "was" meaning past tense in this sentence 'i WAS concerned with brasil possibly not making the cup'. i know they're in now.

as for 94 - yeah i recall that tournament vividly. with all the firepower they had then they were supposed to "smash" the azzurri but they couldn't even score 1 goal in 120 minutes. they needed penalties to beat a mediocre azzurri with baggio playing on 1 leg. HYPE !

and i'd still love to play brasil in the finals above all the other teams. france and argentina scare me ... brasil doesn't. we'd beat them easily in 90 minutes.

[Coringao]

It's hard for anybody to score against a team that just sits in the defense, hoping for a few counters. Baggio was isolated up front. Zola was isolated up front.

Yeah I know your proud of the Azzuri's accomplishments.

I guess Norway liked their accomplishments so much that the copied the bunker defense "strategy".

Euro2000 ring a bell to you!!!

Nevertheless in the end justice was served. Best team of the tournament won.

****

That's what counts :)

Just wait & see.

[Mato]

Yeah, let's just wait and see what happens on September 5th in Buenos Aires........:evil::D:D:p

[Severus]

first of all i don't know what you're talking about because zola didn't even play.

as for euro2000 ... what's your point ? we did something brasil didn't even come close to and that's have france beat.

[Coringao]

It will be an exciting match.

Last encounter 3 - 0 Brazil, who many then also said were weak ;)

Now Argentina minus Veron & Batistuta.

Argentina according to all the "experts" should easily win this one.

We will see!!!

[Severus]

if brasil lose this one then they should be ashamed of themselves because they definitly need the 3 points more than the argies do.

[Coringao]

Well Mr anti-Brazil,

I have been reading here for a while without posting, and it's clear your dislike for the Brazil national team.

With posts such as the above.

"ashamed if they don't win" ?????

Loosing against an Argentine side that many pick as favourites to win 2002 is a shame hey. Well I guess then you are seeing red since you lost at home to Argentina!!!!!

You should be blushing all over right now.

:rolleyes:

[Severus]

speaking of preparation, argentina didn't have much time to prepare for us but that didn't seem to phase them did it ? but brasil on the other hand need centuries to gel ? perhaps they should learn a lesson from their s.american counterparts.

"Loosing against an Argentine side that many pick as favourites to win 2002 is a shame hey. Well I guess then you are seeing red since you lost at home to Argentina!!!!!"

for a friendly ??? not quite. and don't give me this BS that it wouldn't be shameful because if you honestly believe that then you're not a true brasilian fan. under these circumstances - it would certainly be shameful for brasil to lose because argentina have absolutly NOTHING to play for. it seems to me yer already preparing yourself for the worst.

keep the faith hehehehe

[Coringao]

LOL

I guess someone is still bitter after '94 :grumpy:

It's ok you will get your chance again in 2006. Because as you know you can't win it outside of Europe, right ;)

Just for your info, Even IF Brazil were to loose, there is still every opportunity to qualify.

Anyway bye hata.

Forza Baggio '94

:star: :star: :star: :star:

:D

[Coringao]

P.S.

That is a fine excuse for your SHAME. Friendly.

Yeah it was a friendly, which also happened to be close to the EU2000 :D

[Severus]

{It's ok you will get your chance again in 2006. Because as you know you can't win it outside of Europe, right}

why is it written in stone ? grow up.

{Just for your info, Even IF Brazil were to loose, there is still every opportunity to qualify}

you obviously have a reading disability, perhaps you don't comprehend as well as most people do ... when did i ever question brasil's possible exclusion from the WC ? i just said it would be disgraceful if they were to lose because they need the points more than the argies do. what part of this can you not grasp ?

{Yeah it was a friendly, which also happened to be close to the EU2000}

it happened about 7 months after the euros in the middle of the CAMPIONATO. again, i fail to see your point ? i refuse to continue arguing with this twit who doesn't know a futbol from a hockey stick.

i'm out

[Coringao]

Of course you fail to see the point. Cause all YOU want to point out is Brazil's shame and disgrace.

The point is Italy should still have bben match sharp plus it was a HOME game for italy. Friendly??? Yes it was a friendly for Italy. It was also a friendly for Argentina!!!!

Anyway good luck in 2006

:star: :star: :star: :star:

[Coringao]

PS

In 25 tries Brazil only managed to win 2 times in Argentina if I'm not mistaken. So if anything a win by Brazil will be considered an upset!!!

Would you like to share Italy vs Argentina home & away record??? Or are you ashamed :D

:star: :star: :star: :star:

[Severus]

ITALIA - ARGENTINA

WC:

italia - 2 wins, 0 losses, 2 draws

FRIENDLIES:

italia - 4 wins, 2 losses, 2 draws

OVERALL:

italia - 6 wins, 2 losses, 4 draws

how many more times must i make you look foolish ?

[Coringao]

Home & away record????

That's what I posted!! And that's what I asked for. Don't they speak english in Canada??? Or are you from Quebec???

LOL

[Severus]

oui oui je parle francais tres bien. no need to cuss just because you have no arguement. the reason i didn't include the home and away is because its irrelevant ! how many times do you think the azzurri are gonna travel to argentina to play them in a friendly when most of the argentines play in italia or spain ????? 1, 2 the most. completely irrelevant. but since you keep crying like a little girl, i'll provide you with the link. check for yourself. its still a winning record nonetheless. actually our favourable record is 6 wins - 5 ties - 2 losses

under opponent choose argentina, then click results right below.

http://www.figc.it/en/azzurri/nazionalea/cifre/index.htm

[Coringao]

" no need to cuss just because you have no arguement" ?????? :confused:

Where did I cuss????

Anyway YOU have no arguement with your silly ASHAMED theory!!!

If Brazil get a point it will be HUGE. If it is a victory it will be considered an upset!!!

:star: :star: :star: :star:

[Severus]

you obviously don't have much faith in yer team and their tradition. i have nothing more to prove to a doubting brasilian.

[Coringao]

Good job SKIPPING out of your WEAK arguement :D

Lata, hata

:star: :star: :star: :star:

[Mato]

If there's something i've learnt with our history against Brasil is that there's no telling about what will actually happen. Don't get me wrong, I'd be the first one to dizz Brasil, i always want to kick their butts, and i love to see them lose against anyone, but history and humility has taught me respect in reference to tetracampeao, though i'm pretty confident towards this match(WE'LL KICK SOME BRAZUCA ASS).But in the end they have 4 stars to show for, and still are stuck into 2. Maybe 02 will be ours.

Hey Severus, j'etude francais. Peut etre nous pouvons parler quelque fois.

ARGENTINA CAMPEAO NA 2002

[Severus]

i was just kidding mato. the last time i spoke french was in gr 9 in french class. i don't speak very well but i understand quite a bit of it. perhaps we can speak one day as you mentioned but i can only respond to you in either english or italian. do you study it in university ?

[Severus]

Originally posted by Coringao
Good job SKIPPING out of your WEAK arguement :D

Lata, hata

:star: :star: :star: :star:

there's nothing more to say to you. you either have no confidence in your team or you're an idiot for presuming brasil is the underdog when they are definitly more desperate for the 3 points than argentina are. brasil have to go to buenos aires expecting to win because anything less is failure.

wake up ! its not as if we're speaking of venezuela or bolivia here. you need to understand futbol a little better.

3 points or SHAME por BRASIL !

[Coringao]

What is it gonna be They are desperate or they are not desperate?

First you say of course you know they are gonna qualify. Now you say they are desperate. Or were you trying to say YOU are desperate to stand on a WEAK arguement that has no legs to stand on it's own?

You don't know anything about Brazil football yet you want to come here and tell every body how weak they are. " where is the quality?", "There is nothing big about Brazil".

If you followed Scolari's comments it would be clear to you that he doesn't see Brazil as a favorite to win that game! Yet it will be a battle.

Sure there is nothing big about Brazil :star: :star: :star: :star:

[Coringao]

What is it gonna be They are desperate or they are not desperate?

First you say of course you know they are gonna qualify. Now you say they are desperate. Or were you trying to say YOU are desperate to stand on a WEAK arguement that has no legs to stand on it's own?

You don't know anything about Brazil football yet you want to come here and tell every body how weak they are. " where is the quality?", "There is nothing big about Brazil".

If you followed Scolari's comments it would be clear to you that he doesn't see Brazil as a favorite to win that game! Yet it will be a battle.

Sure there is nothing big about Brazil :star: :star: :star: :star:

[Dynamo_Milan]

As a fan of the game I'm quite disappointed with Brazil latest results as well.
Over the years Brazil set a certain standard and then they falling 3 steps below that level, they must expect that people all over the world are questioning they capability. We always talk how great Brazil was, and the tournament without Brazil is not the same, but that Brazilians think they are super stars, just because they Brazilians and they are wrong. I don't think that Brazil has dropped in quality, I think other teams have really caught up. So the game against Argentina is not only important for South American rivalry and for the valuable 3 points, it's also Brazil's worldwide reputation on a line as well.
I wish you all the best football crazy people and I hope to see the old Brazil the one I used too.

[Severus]

ma are you capable of processing a logical thought in that brain of yours anymore. because you lately haven't made any sense in any post you've submitted. i don't know how many times i have to say it: brasil NEED these points more than argentina which means they are the more dangerous team because they are the most desperate ! what part of this do you not understand ? and why do you incorporate my opinion into this arguement ? yeah i think they'll make it, but so what ??? they still have to qualify no ??? let's just say brasil tie and uruguay and colombia win ... uruguay and colombia will be 1 and 3 points behind respectively with 3 matchdays left. is that the mentality you want going in ? that a tie is good ? you go in there for a win because brasil are capable of winning. now this doesn't mean that they will because i think argentina will still beat you - but brasil are still capable nonetheless. you obviously have never played futbol because you totally have no idea about the psychology of it. not that i'm a psychologist or something, but i know my share because i've played my fair share of games and its senseless continuing this debate with you because YOU'RE OUT IN LEFT FIELD !

buh bye and good luck. you're gonna need a whole shit load of it.

forza argentina !

[Garrincha]

My, my, my.

Severus, do you seriously believe there is SHAME in not beating Argentina in Buenos Aires? Psychological moment or not, how can you say that? That's insane, man. There's no argument that Brazil needs the points, but to say the Argentinians won't have much motivation, frankly... this is Brazil! They HATE OUR GUTS! Mato, help me out here if you're readin' this. Does anybody else think the Argentinians will be less motivated than Brazil? We do have a more urgent need, but they're gonna bleed their eyeballs out before they allow us to waltz in there and take the three points. It can be done, sure. But to say it will be shameful not to win is ridiculous. Bad form, Severus. ;)

About this pressing desire Severus has announced for meeting Brazil in the great finals... we have a word here in Brazil (a bit of soccer slang) referring to teams our own team ALWAYS smashes, nine times out of ten. It's "Fregues". It means regular customer. Italy has lost two, count 'em TWO, cups to Brazil. Baggio pathethically puttin' the ball in orbit is still a fresh memory for us all. Italy is Brazil's "Fregues". All I can say is, I wouldn't mind meeting Italy in the finals, as it's always a great laugh. :D

But I would rather it was France or Argentina. A better-lookin' match, y'know? Italian catenaccio can be so boring, always trying to reach the penalties...:star: :star: :star: :star:

[Severus]

doesn't matter how deep the rivalry is, if brasil fail to beat an already qualfied argentina who really have no incentive to win other than the fact its brasil - then yes its a SHAME if they lose BECAUSE ARGENTINA ARE ALREADY IN. if it was colombia or uruguay battling the argies next then it wouldn't be so bad because who expects them to beat the argentines on any occasion ? are you getting this ? if argentina weren't qualified then absolutly not would it be shameful for brasil if they were to lose. but that's not the situation presented to you lot now is it ?

however, if the consensus is that 2 brasilians are voting in favour of no shame against 1 italian that is pro-shame then i guess it's either because i have greater expectations for my lot than you have for yours because if we were in that situation you damn right we'd be playing for the win. and anything less would be considered shame according to the players, media and i tifosi. big teams usually come out winners when there is more on the line for them - doesn't matter where and who they play and that's what we ITALIANS believe.

OR ... you're just already making excuses for your hapless bunch in an attempt to save face and playdown all this talk. pretty pathetic if you ask me.

brasil "smashes" italy 9/10 ? really ? that didn't happen in spain82 did it ? according to figc.it, in the WC we've played 5 times and we each have 2 wins and 1 tie. you have 2 of your wins in the pele era with 1 PK win in 94 (which is the tie) while we managed to beat your asses in REGULATION time in 82. not quite the "usual customer" are we if you know how to add.

buh bye my struggling brasilians

[OAnimal]

Severus, you seem to be an idiot. I will explain why. You seem to not understand the meaning of rivalry and motivation in football. This means a lot. When we (Slovenia) were still a very bad team (it was till 1999) and we have been losing games against very week oposition (Lithuania, for example), in that time Croatia had a great team, very talented, with full of stars (Boban, Suker, Boksic, Stimac, Bilic, ...). We played four qualifying games (for Euro 1996 and WC 1998) against them and they got three victories and once we got a draw in Split (Croatia). And their victories were far from being easy - they really had to sweat for them. And this was only because our players were motivated and were giving 120% of their possibilities just because there was Croatia on the other side. Now, these times are fortunately over, and I am sure we can beat them now. :)

Now, there is similar case with Brazil - Argentina teams. I have a friend in Argentina and he says there is no team in the world, they would like to beat more then Brazil. No matter if Argentina is qualified, their players will be as motivated as ever, because there will be Brazil on the other side. And further, if Brazil doesn't qualify, this means there will be one contender for the title less, which could mean easier work for Argentina. It is better to get off your rivals when they are weak - believe me, Brazil will be much tougher rival in the WC2002.

Considering Brazil - Italy matches, I think that one of Italy's victories was achieved in 1938, when football was not what it is now and if I am not mistaken, Italy had a bunch of Argentinians (with supposedly Italian ancestors) playing for them, so for me, this victory doesn't count much - so as any match played before World War II. In 1982, Italy had pure luck against Brazil, you have to admit it. Brazil made three really stupid mistakes in defense and Italy took advantage of it. Besides this, Brazil controlled most of the match, but the unfortunately the ball just entered the net twice.

Regarding the match in 1994, Italy should have lost against Nigeria already, because they have showed nothing, absolutely nothing. Nigeria controlled the whole match, and only their lack of experience allowed Baggio to take Italy into quarter-finals... Where Italy was lucky again against Spain. Victory against Bulgaria was deserved, but then Italy showed their historical carefulness against Brazil in the finals. Not having enough guts to take on the open battle, Italy has chosen their usual tactics - catenaccio. Which almost brought success, but fortunately the God was watching the championship and concluded that such a lousy team can't be the world champions.

I believe he was watching the Euro2000 too. Although Italy played much better than it did in WC 1994, they should have lost against Holland in semifinals by more than one goal.

[Severus]

my god is everyone here an illiterate ? never, have i denied that argentina will not be fired up for this match. all i'm saying is that brasil should win because they're hungrier. this is what ... the hundredth time i've repeated myself ???

as for 1938 - i don't know where you obtained your info from, but we were led to victory by the threesome of colaussi, piola and the great meazza. all three italians. as for the argentines ... hmm gees seems to me they utilized more italians than we did argentines who are of italian heritage regardless. this point you brought up is completely irrelevant anyway.

regarding USA94 and euro2000, i didn't bother reading that part because it was filled with should have's and what not. yeah we should've lost to nigeria, we should've lost to spain, we should've lost to holland but guess what - we didn't. we should've also been eliminated by brasil - but once again - we WEREN'T ! this is futbol, you know the sport where nothing is ever what it seems.

come back to me when you buy yourself a clue are we clear ?

[Dynamo_Milan]

I don't want to sound that I'm on Severus' side in this debate, thank god I got my own opinion, but under different circumstances you guys are right, there is nothing to be ashamed of in losing to Argentina in Buenos Aires. But Brazil situation is complectly different this time, what Brazil managed to achieve over the years, was destroyed in such short period of time and this is the best opportunity to save the face. You beat Argentina and everything is going to be forgotten even if you manage to qualify 5th, you lose but still manage to qualify 4th, 3rd, whatever, and everybody is going to remember; Brazil was scrambling for their lives and it is not the same BRAZIL we know. Remember what happened to Argentina in 94 World Cup qualifier, everybody forgot that they were champs in 86 and runners-up in 90 and everybody was asking Diego WHO?
Guys it is your words "No matter how bad we are, we still better than Argentina" and I reckon Brazilian players must use this as a pray, before they going to bed.
Guys I don't know how well I explained my point, I'm still trying to master this language. Then I look at the FIFA world ranking and I always have the same questions to ask, like what USA doing in 12 position or Colombia in 6 or Nigeria in 34 and so on, but I never ever have the same questions about Brazil.
Well, the way things going I have some concerns.

[Garrincha]

Look, I see what you guys mean, I understand, and almost agree. Of course, we MUST win, it HAS to be done. But it might not, and that is a battle which, no matter the circumstances, there is no dishonor in losing.

I agree that Brazil needs this victory, and achieving it is within our power. But things aren't that easy in soccer - even though they might get easier after the match begins. ;)

Ah, well. May the best team win, and I hope the best team also makes a nice trip back to Brazil after the match. :D

[OAnimal]

Severus, by your logic, it was a great shame, that Italy lost to France in Euro2000. Italy should be "hungrier", you haven't won anything since 1982, you haven't been European champions since when? 1976 or something like that? France was world champions in 1998 and European champions in 1984, so you should be "hungrier" and you lost anyway - so I believe by your logic, you should be ashamed very much of your team?!?!

BTW, I enjoyed the Euro2000 finals overtimes very much, because you were so helpless. :D:D
I was even mad a bit at France, because they scored the golden goal so early - I wanted to see you suffer a bit more. :D:D
It is so pleasent to see the cattenaccio teams being so helpless. :D:D

I am sorry for 1938, it was in 1934 that Italy used some players that played for Argentina in 1930.

Going back to the topic - there is no way anyone should be ashamed of losing (or even drawing) to the current Argentinian national team in Buenos Aires. Period.

[Garrincha]

Good point there, Animal.

Although I mantain that there was no shame in Italy's defeat, as there wouldn't be shame if Brazil didn't defeat Argentina. Of course, I hope we do.

Whatta time I picked to stop smoking. That match is gonna be a real nerve-wracker.

At least it looks like Tinga is gettin' booted out of the Brazilian squad for injury. Good riddance.:thumbsup: :star: :star: :star: :star:

[Severus]

Originally posted by OAnimal
Severus, by your logic, it was a great shame, that Italy lost to France in Euro2000. Italy should be "hungrier", you haven't won anything since 1982, you haven't been European champions since when? 1976 or something like that? France was world champions in 1998 and European champions in 1984, so you should be "hungrier" and you lost anyway - so I believe by your logic, you should be ashamed very much of your team?!?!


err ... are you aware that you are comparing a european cup final to a world cup qualifyer ? are you also aware that with the euro championship, france are the first team to win the double back to back ? so there, it looks like france did have something to play for even though you believe the euros meant very little to them. where are you going with this illogical comparison ???

as for 1934, yeah there were a few argentine born players playing for us, orsi in particular, but if you want to get technical, it was schiavio that won it for us in extra time and i believe he was born in bologna. where is that ? 10 km south of buenos aires ?

this was a stupid thing to bring up on your part considering how many frigin italians migrated to argentina. even though some of the argentine players were born in ARG that played wth us in 1934, they were still of italian origin in fact, all of them were first generation argentines. in short, i think we did more for their futbol association then they have done for ours, by a long shot.

are you ever going to make a point which has some substance in it ? because as of yet, i still haven't read one submitted by you.

[Garrincha]

Sev, your verbal acrobactics amaze us all. "First Generation" argentinians? You mean the same "first generation" argentinians who, once they're in Italy, they're treated as less than true Italians - as "oriundi". So they're more Italian than Argentinian when it's time to play for the Azzurra, but not Italian enough otherwise? Quite the somersault there.

And the attempt to demoralize Animal's good point is lame. France was motivated because they wanted the double win? And Argentina won't be as motivated, playing their greatest rival before a home crowd, the same rival who took their invincibility? That makes no sense, Severus.

[Severus]

i thought you were going to ignore me ? face it garrincha, you love arguing with me because i bring out the best in you, as i'll concede, you do in me. brasilians and italians seem to do that to one another.

Originally posted by Garrincha
Sev, your verbal acrobactics amaze us all. "First Generation" argentinians? You mean the same "first generation" argentinians who, once they're in Italy, they're treated as less than true Italians - as "oriundi". So they're more Italian than Argentinian when it's time to play for the Azzurra, but not Italian enough otherwise? Quite the somersault there.

as for this ... why are you putting words in my mouth ? when have i ever mentioned that the italo - argentines are any less italian than myself or any native italian ?

[Garrincha]

Sev, you're absolutely right - and I deserved that one. you had me laughing out loud here, and I don't mean that as an insult, but as a compliment. If we met personally, I figure we'd have a huge argument, maybe even get physical, but eventually gather round some beers and talk soccer.:thumbsup: I'm sure it'd be great fun, and we'd pick on each other's national teams.

About the "oriundi" comment... You really haven't said anything about that. I did, because of the information I have on the matter, which is that "oriundi" aren't treated as true Italians by many people in Italy. I haven't accused you of doing so, and apologize if I've given that impression.

My girlfriend is half-Brazilian, half-Italian, and she told me about that from her experience. No offense meant. Cheers!


:ronaldo:

[Severus]

let's just agree to disagree shall we ?

about the oriundi, my impression of the italian sentiment towards them is that they feel that them betrayed them in a sense by moving on to find greener pastors across the pond. i got into a deep conversation with my ol' friends down there and that seemed to be the consensus. nevertheless an italian mother and father don't make a chinese or canadian or argentine or brasilian child. the blood is the same no matter which borders you live within.

[OAnimal]

Severus, I didn't say, that France had nothing to play in Euro2000 finals, I just wanted to say that your argument about Brazil, having to be ashamed if they don't win in Buenos Aires, is not fair. Argentina is qualified, yes, but they would just love to beat Brazil in any time, imagine now that they can prevent Brazil from qualifying to the World Cup!! It would be one rival less to beat in WC2002, because believe me, Brazil will have a competitive team by that time. My point is, if you couldn't figure it out till now, that there is no shame losing or drawing in Buenos Aires, because Argentina is definitely one of three top teams in the world. And yes, the psichology will have an impact on this match - but Argentine players will be as motivated as ever.

[Severus]

yes i understand the rivalry thing. but if brasil is as GRANDE as brasilian fans claim they are, they should beat them because they need the points more than argentina.

no point in arguing because i wont change yer mind, and you certainly wont change mine.

ho finito