pele was always better then maradona

[Palacio]

i agree pele will always be better then maradona, but pele played around the best in the world cup maradona won it with a crappy team and him by himself left the brits dizzy. you know what gets me pissed the 1990 world cup cause it is was robbed from us argentinians dang germans >:(:mad2:

[Calif]

A lot of people will agree and disagree with you Me in my personal opinion they were both great players!

[Palacio]

yep but Argentina and Brasil will always be rivals in futbol and iam on the Argentine side :)

[kingkong]

i agree pele will always be better then maradona, but pele played around the best in the world cup maradona won it with a crappy team and him by himself left the brits dizzy. you know what gets me pissed the 1990 world cup cause it is was robbed from us argentinians dang germans >:(:mad2:
Argentina and Brasil will always be rivals in futbol and iam on the Argentine side :)03-22-2007 07:04 PMPalacio,

I know you're seeing things through the Argentinian optics, and you are doing it sincerely & with best of the intentions.

But you cannot just accept things that are told to you without any questioning.

For instance, consider the following:

In Pelé's time, not only Pelé, but everybody, played, as you say, 'having around them the best players of the world'.

The mid-50's through the mid-70's were simply the golden age of world football.

That age produced not only the 3 most brilliant football schools of the last 57 years (Hungary, Brazil and Holland) but also the best of powerful Germany, England, Italy, besides highly respectable France, Portugal, Spain, Poland, Romenia, Czechkoslovakia, Yugoslavia, USSR, and even minor but also highly respectable football countries, like Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Scotland - all technically at their peak.

So, Pelé didn't only play having 'the best of the world around him': he also had the best of the world of all times playing AGAINST him.

Maradona's team in 86 was crappy?...

So was England, so was Belgium, so was Germany, so was the world football at his time if compared to the 50s-70s...

Maradona - a genius, undoubtedly - played 'around' crappy companions, OK, but AGAINST (?)evencrappier adversaries.

Maradona playing in the 80's was like a pearl thrown at the pigs!...

He was like Don Quijote in a world where knights & dragons had for long ceased to exist: his adversaries, illusory windmills!...

Pelé, it's true, had on his side (in he Brz Team) geniuses like Garrincha, Didi, Gérson, Zito, Nilton Santos, Rivelino, Tostão, Jairzinho, Carlos Alberto...

On the other hand however, he also had playing AGAINST him geniuses of the level of Di Stéfano, Puskas, Eusébio, Banks, Bobby Charlton, Bobby Moore, George Best, Beckenbauer, Breitner, Overath, Trappatoni, Gianni Rivera, Fachetti, Müller, Sivori...

He had respectable...OPPOSITION! :sad:

And a genius - I repeat, a genius - like Maradona - had WHO to face?...

I'll respond to you: a bunch of nobodies!...

That 'defensive line' of England in the Maradona's famous 1986 'Goal of the Century' was one of the grossest displays of football ever seen in a football field: nothing but a group of heavy and slow bums, without even the malice to commit an illegal but providential tackle - a Brittish specialty, by the way!...

That was not UKs fault though - the whole world of football was very incipient in those days compared to Pelé's times (with rare solitary exceptions: Zico, Platini, Falcão, Júnior, Baresi etc)...

So Palacio, how about viewing things a little through the Brazilian optics? :lol: ...

[onbrick247]

maradona won it with dope and a handball

[Palacio]

first of all dont think about him getting high but in soccer he won a world cup and took a crappy team like Napoli to a championship and more......
watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tCoMtPuL3Q

P.S. should england be the best soccer players cause they invented it ?

[Vipaman]

The mid-50's through the mid-70's were simply the golden age of world football.

Soccer today is at a much higher quality technically than it was back then. Again, you need to get out of the past. It was fun while it lasted, but life goes on... ;)

[Calif]

Yep soccer is very different right now then back then!

[Nixx]

Soccer today is at a much higher quality technically than it was back then. Again, you need to get out of the past. It was fun while it lasted, but life goes on... ;)


You know, let's say I'm ignorant on this issue, but I remember Cruyff and Beckenbauer complaining some time ago about the decline of technique in modern football. So, if you want me to take your word ahead of Beckenbauer and Cruyff, I think you should come with a better argument than your own subjective opinion.

Simply claiming the idea above is really not enough. So, what factors give soccer a much higher technical quality ?
All can make assertions, but few bother to back them up. I could also say that the kid around the block is going to be better than Maradona, I don't have any evidence, but you should trust me, I know his potential.

[kingkong]

Yep soccer is very different right now then back then!AND WORSE...

Calif,

'Different' or 'more physical' is not necessarilly...better!

Today's football is obviously different & more 'physical'* (and couldn't be otherwise), but that's miles away from being 'more technical'...

My ball control for instance, at 59 (I know) is way better than Stace's, Dexboii or Black&Blue4Life at 21 (& specially because - besides being younger & less experienced - they are...'Europeans' :ronaldo: k/d)

I know the sky 'today' is way bluer than in the 'past': just compare the pictures...

In the the last 5 cups though, weather - too bad - must have been extremely overcast! :lol: ...

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/54/overcast648cc3nn3.png

* Not even more 'physical' (just methods are OBVIOUSLY different): in the past football was more hardly & unfairly fought - there was no :yellowcar 's , no sophisticated protection pads, no accusing VTs, no ambulance on the field side, no carpet-like fields or air-conditioning (as elders would say, not without their reason: it was manlier)!...

[kingkong]

Pelé, it's true, had on his side (in he Brz Team) geniuses like Garrincha, Didi, Gérson, Zito, Nilton Santos, Rivelino, Tostão, Jairzinho, Carlos Alberto...


On the other hand however, he also had playing AGAINST him geniuses of the level of Di Stéfano, Puskas, Eusébio, Banks, Bobby Charlton, Bobby Moore, George Best, Beckenbauer, Breitner, Overath, Trappatoni, Gianni Rivera, Fachetti, Müller, Sivori...

He had respectable...OPPOSITION! :sad:

And a genius - I repeat, a genius - like Maradona - had WHO to face?...

I'll respond to you: Butcher, Hoddle, Waddle, Gerets, Ceulemans, Scifo, Briegel, Brehme, in their majority, compared to the ones above...a bunch of nobodies!Lads,

Just give me one of nowadays players (let's say last 10 years - old enough, isn'it - and naturally considering their positions in the field) that would be considerably 'more technical' than any of the 'oldies' above...

Weigh those names in your hands, and decide!...

Last 10 years: c'mon folks! Gimme one, PLEASE!...

[Palacio]

ok how about Batistuta

[kingkong]

ok how about BatistutaGreat player, in the level of a Ronaldo, but as a striker way inferior to Eusébio, Vavá, Müller, Jairzinho, Rivelino.

[Nixx]

I don't understand where do you get this idea that players today are technically better. Just because when someone today manages a nice play that sequence is replayed 100 times on all channells, thus giving the impression that current players are some kind of football beasts, while 99% of all the great plays and goals of the past are lost ?

[kingkong]

I don't understand where do you get this idea that players today are technically better. Just because when someone today manages a nice play that sequence is replayed 100 times on all channells, thus giving the impression that current players are some kind of football beasts, while 99% of all the great plays and goals of the past are lost ?Do try to understand them, Nixx!...

Today's players are 'technically' better because they can perform more:

Sit-ups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sit-up_%28exercise%29)/crunches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crunch_%28exercise%29): Start with your back on the floor, knees bent, bottoms of feet against the floor. Lift shoulders off the floor by tightening abdominal muscles bringing your chest closer to your knees. Lower back to the floor with a smooth movement.
Push-ups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push-up): Start face down on floor, palms against floor under shoulders, toes curled up against floor. Push up with arms keeping a straight line from head through toes. Lower to within a few inches off floor and repeat. You should keep your head tilted upward, your back straight. Do not rest on your shoulder blades, even when you feel fatigue.
Squats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squat_%28exercise%29): Stand with feet shoulder width apart. Squat as far as possible bringing your arms forward parallel to the floor. Return to standing position. Repeat. Again, if you feel like this is not a challenge, there are other forms of squats. One method is lifting one leg off the floor in front of you, putting both arms in front of you for balance, and squatting. This is a one-legged squat or pistol....than older generations ones! :sad: ...

How can one 'compete' against that! :ronaldo: ...

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/4725/marinesdopushupsc61000uu8.jpg (http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://img263.imageshack.us/content.php?page=done&l=img263/4725/marinesdopushupsc61000uu8.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Liegestuetz02_ani_fcm.gif/300px-Liegestuetz02_ani_fcm.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Liegestuetz02_ani_fcm.gif)

We'll get bald &'ll never be able to match them! :ronaldo: ...

[Vipaman]

You know, let's say I'm ignorant on this issue, but I remember Cruyff and Beckenbauer complaining some time ago about the decline of technique in modern football.

Nothing more than posturings. They're just tooting their own horn and trying to relive their past glory by promoting the idea, which is false, that football was better quality back then. You can now regularly watch the telly and see the likes of Ibrahimovic, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho's dribbles and mesmerizing plays. Zidane's exquisite touch and Ronaldo's runs of old. Technical play that existed back then has been bettered at least 10 fold these days as proven by the extensive libraries of soccer tricks, skill, etc that we have opportunities to witness at our disposal with the wonders of the internet. The internet has also given us the opportunity to watch the games of old. The tricks, skill and technical play back then pales in comparison to today.



So, if you want me to take your word ahead of Beckenbauer and Cruyff, I think you should come with a better argument than your own subjective opinion.

And what is their opinion if not subjective too? It's just an authority you chose to believe in. On the other hand you can ask Zidane what he thinks and he believes the game is more technical today. So who's to believe? It's all what you want to believe I reckon.

[Vipaman]

I don't understand where do you get this idea that players today are technically better?

Got some time?

Soccer Tricks of Today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqsG_Quyf-k

Best of Pele/Zidane/Maradona:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJV_RwSboJw

Best of Platini/Pele/Maradona/Baggio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoZl-3K6LO4

Best of Ferenc Puskas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad-x5g1MTd0&mode=related&search=

Best of Eusebio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuKTTxdTLRM

Best of Di Stefano:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPvrkQSFrbU

Best of Johan Cryuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de2Zw2N3VdI

Best of Best (George Best ;) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwRxrHdi0Ss

Best of Pele:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjm-muvAvXo

Best of Zidane:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ENpeTQQteY

Best of Ronaldo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkq89dVrr94

Best of Totti:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBzDDOjsObI&mode=related&search=

Best of Ronaldinho:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYX13HEePeE

Best of C. Ronaldo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvbJL2wzqBI

Best of Ibrahimovic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yObIYDOv1Qc

Best of Alex Del Piero:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBr1Eejt1Wo&mode=related&search=

Best of Luis Figo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOQvuUNaauI&mode=related&search=

Miss anyone? Do a search and watch their tricks. Look for consistency, or speed they do it in, or how effective they were.

I reckon that in today's modern era tricks are better, more consistent, quicker, and more abundant than they were many years ago.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieHlDgbB6Zw

[Nixx]

Nothing more than posturings. They're just tooting their own horn and trying to relive their past glory by promoting the idea, which is false, that football was better quality back then. You can now regularly watch the telly and see the likes of Ibrahimovic, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho's dribbles and mesmerizing plays. Zidane's exquisite touch and Ronaldo's runs of old. Technical play that existed back then has been bettered at least 10 fold these days as proven by the extensive libraries of soccer tricks, skill, etc that we have opportunities to witness at our disposal with the wonders of the internet. The internet has also given us the opportunity to watch the games of old. The tricks, skill and technical play back then pales in comparison to today.



And what is their opinion if not subjective too? It's just an authority you chose to believe in. On the other hand you can ask Zidane what he thinks and he believes the game is more technical today. So who's to believe? It's all what you want to believe I reckon.

Vipaman, I think I have seen you somewhere before... :smoking: (you remind of someone with whom I already had this discussion...)

One friend of mine said once : "Some of you young kids are so out to lunch that one can only have pity. I fear that you guys suffer from an acute case of videocliposis, a common condition among lazy children who can't be bothered to search for full matches so they satisfy themselves with video clips, resulting in a grossly distorted sense of reality. "

These are harsh words. But they reflect reality. Watching videoclips is entertainment, watching full games is education !

I fully expect that my words would fall on deaf ears, but anyway I will say what needs to be said. First and foremost, there are 2 problems with your counterarguments :

1. You bring Zidane's opinion into this. The problem is that his opinion does not have the same weight as the opinions of Cruyff and Beckenbauer. When did Zidane start to play professionally ? After 1990. So, practically the man played only in this "modern" era. He may believe the game is more technical now, but his era was the only football era he had the chance to witness ! This is like asking a man who tasted only beef what is better between beef and chicken ! On the other hand, Cruyff and Beckenbauer played back then AND COACHED IN THE CURRENT ERA, so I think their opinion is likely to be more accurate than the opinion of Zidane.
BTW, here are the exact words of Cruyff and Beckenbauer (from an interview in 2002)

Was 1974's football better than it is today?

Beckenbauer: "The speed of the game has changed. Today's football is more athletic. Back then, it was more estetic. Mostly becasue our technical abilities were of a higher level."

Cruyff: "Football has changed enormously - at the the cost of technique, unfortunately. In 1974, it was much higher than it is now. It's sad that that part of the game has been neglected in recent years, because for me, technique remains the core of football."

I would like to know the exact words of Zidane and when did he say them, if you can provide me the quotation.

2. You bring as argument a bunch of videoclips. I seriously question your objectivity when you do this. In order for this argument of videoclips to be fair, you need to have the same amount of plays for all the players compared and the videos to be of the same quality. Which is not the case. A compilation of Zidane will include his "best of the best", for Di Stefano you have to show only what you could find. Zidane's plays you have them in color, from the best angles, often in slow motion, while for Di Stefano you have a bunch of clips of crap quality, from miserable angles, with no replays and often so bad that you cannot even properly see what happens.

So, no, thank you, I appreciate the effort you put in offering us those videoclips, but that is not an argument.

So, in order to have a good discussion, I would like to know what full games of Cruyff, for instance, have you seen. Take this from someone who is almost 51 years old, had the chance to see Cruyff live and has 5 full games of Cruyff on his computer right at this moment (so I can check any moment) : the CL finals from 1971 and 1972, the quarterfinal Ajax-Bayern 4-0 in 1973, the El Clasico Real-Barca 0-5 from 1974 and the clash Holland-Argentina at the WC from 1974. So what I'm talking is not some kind of romanticized memories and I can compare the game back then at any moment, full game versus full game, not a bunch of videoclips which show 10 great pieces of skill which the respective player managed to do in a whole season.

Now, let's answer to your point :


You can now regularly watch the telly and see the likes of Ibrahimovic, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho's dribbles and mesmerizing plays. Zidane's exquisite touch and Ronaldo's runs of old. Technical play that existed back then has been bettered at least 10 fold these days as proven by the extensive libraries of soccer tricks, skill, etc that we have opportunities to witness at our disposal with the wonders of the internet.

Mate, let's not talk "in general". Let's compare competition with competition. Let's take the most prestigious one, the WC.

At the last WC, what pieces of great dribbling have we seen ? NONE !
What great individual performances remained into history ?
What matches for the ages ?
There were no great solo goals, no bycicle kicks, no moments of great individual skill... All the great goals of the previous WC were a bunch of long range goals based more on luck than individual skill (two of the greatest goals were scored by Maxi Rodriguez and Joe Cole - enough said) and a goal preceded by 20 backward passes ?
It's really a sad indictement of the state of our sport when media went head over heels for that goal scored by Argentina against Serbia, when we had in the past team goals which put that one into pocket : take as example Maradona's goal against Greece in 1994, Careca's goal against France in 1986, Negrete's goal against Bulgaria in 1986, Eder goal against Soviet Union in 1982, Jairzinho's goal against England in 1970, etc.

Ok, Ronaldinho can hit the bar four times in a row in a Nike commercial, but there is a big difference between a proper match and those adverts. I see you mention Ronaldinho/Ibrahimovic/Ronaldo's dribble.

Let's settle this once and for all!

What vast array of moves and dribbles does Ronaldinho do on a regular basis? Seriously, where do you guys get this idea that Ronaldinho is some kind of circus act displaying an endless array of "new" tricks?
Ronaldinho does :

1) No look passes.
2) Elasticos.
3) The occasional stepover.
4) The occasional spin move.
5) Occasional backheels.

And that is all.

I hear this stuff a lot of times : Ronaldo/Ronaldinho/Zidane/insert any modern great can do a lot of tricks which older players can't do. From videoclips, it seems so. But it's a load of bollocks. We have to thank Nike for this brainwashing.
What are these tricks modern greats perform so often and what is their end product ? A very limited number, who are very far from representing the core of dribbling.

In general, for a player to be a succesful dribbler he needs to meet the next requirements :

- great ball control ; for instance, take as an example Maradona's goal against England. What tricks does he use to get past those english defenders ? The same trick Ronaldinho to screw Real's defense one year ago, more exactly NOTHING. It was a classic solo based on speed, great ball control, sudden change of direction.

- decision making : this again is very important (the most important IMO) ; here is where the difference between the trickster (Denilson) and the great player (Ronaldinho) resides. Dinho could have ended like Denilson, they weren't so different at the beginning of their careers, but Dinho complements his technical skills with a much better decision making.

These are the main ones which represent the essence of dribbling. Master these 2 elements and you are going to be a great dribbler without any kind of tricks.

Additional requirements are :

- ability to change direction quickly ;
- speed ;
- strength.


Now let's take some cases for study from one of the greatest dribblers of our generation, pre-injury Ronaldo, and see what's the end product of those tricks.

- The goal versus Compostela : the hosts lose a ball at the midfield, Ronaldo picks the ball, he is tripped from the back, but he manages to free himself, a defender comes from behind, but when Ronaldo accelerates, that defender is in a very compromising position, so Ronaldo moves towards left and dashes past him, Ronaldo runs towards the goal with 2 defenders trailing him, once he slows down one defender manages to get before him, but Ronaldo moves towards right to make way for his shot and scores, while a forth defenders watches at 2-3 meters away. Tricks used : ZERO.

- First goal versus Valencia : Ronaldo receives a ball at aprox 40 meters, accelerates, uses his speed to ran past 2 defenders and scores ; trick used : ZERO ;

- The last goal versus Valencia : Ronaldo picks a ball in the midfield, dashes forward while a defender challenges him from the right but Ronaldo's superior speed prevents the contact from taking place, he rans towards the goal at full speed, he muscles his way through 2 defenders (his great speed denying them the time to close the space) and sends the ball into the net before a forth defender, coming from the right, had the time to tackle him ; a great goal based on speed. Tricks used : ZERO.

- Goal versus Atletico Madrid : Ronaldo gets the ball at 40-45 meters, he charges towards a defender, but he quickly changes direction towards right and sends a shot into the low corner from 20-25 meters ; tricks used : ZERO ;

Four of the greatest goals of Ronaldo required NO TRICKS. And like that are many. Sure there are some when Ronaldo used some tricks (I remember an elastico followed by a goal for Brazil), but the majority were not performed with "tricks".

I'll have to repeat myself now and reiterate what kind of dribbler Pele was.


Dribbling nowadays goes through a profound crisis. In comparison to the generations of Pele or Maradona, current players are dummies when it comes to dribbling. It's a bold statement, but it's a sad reality. The problem is that the tendency of today is to play safe. Well, the use of dribbling has nothing in common with "playing safe". A player who dribbles takes risks. So, for this, you need a lot of courage and confidence from both the players and the coach (to allow his player to dribble). Such elements do not exist in the current environment. And the result is that developing the dribbling skills of players have become secondary - both at youth level, when the basic skills are learnt, and at senior level. With dire consequences for this aspect of the game. And the result is that when the new generation sees a master dribbler like Garrincha, Pele or Maradona in action, they simply cannot believe that such a thing was possible and think that the only explanation is that defenses were poor.
Well, going through defenses a la Pele/Maradona is not possible anymore not because defenses have suddenly become iron-strong, but because the majority of modern players suck at dribbling, result of neglecting this aspect during their development, and even the best ones do not come close in skill to someone like George Best, Pele or Cruyff.

Also, technique has declined for a very simple reason : it has become somehow secondary in modern game. Fast, powerful very high stamina and aggression and then comes technique. The simplicity of this being that if you can get 9 out of 11 of your players to fit this criteria they will literally run a superior techniqued team into the ground and then win the game in the 2nd half - endurance over technique.
But what's the idea : a team consisting of such players can gain the edge over a technically superior team by simply exhausting the opposition. It's the sum of all the players which will grant them the victory, not individual talent. Look at the Chelsea team over the last 2 seasons : good players, but no one exceptional, yet they dominated the Premiership between 2004 and 2006 in a manner which more talented teams did not managed to do. A team like that can achieve success, but, individually, their players are not that good.
But what's the problem : this is a trend which is practically a killer for geniuses. Since technique is often overlooked, phenomenal players will become more and more seldom. And, no, a good athlete does not have to mean a good football player.

As to why we don't have today players of the magnitude of Pele, Cruyff, Garrincha, Maradona, Di Stefano it's a very simple explanation :

It's because the approach towards the game.

The idea which appears in this discussions past players versus present players is that modern defenses are better and that's why modern players can't do what Pele/Garrincha/Cruyff/Maradona did. Totally false. Defenses are not better now : a defense who is willing to risk and win a game with 3 - 2 is not worse than a defense who won't move forward an inch after they scored and settle for an 1-0.
But what is happening now worlwide : the immense pressure of the results led to the generalization of a defensive approach towards the game. This had happened in the past as well, but it was restricted to certain specific leagues.
Well, over the last decade, more and more leagues have the tendency to focus much more on the defensive aspect of the game.
In such conditions, having in mind the history examples, is that such a surprise that the majority of current players in the offensive department do not manage to live up to the standard of their predecessors ? As long as this trend continues, the new Pele or the new Maradona is very far away.

And this is combined with other factors, like the declining of the dribbling skills of modern players, the emphasize placed on athleticism at the cost of technique, the cowardly approach towards the game, etc, etc.

The football mentality has become extremely orientated towards negativity and such a type of football is organicly incapable of producing players from the class of Pele. Combine this with the fact that technique is overlooked during a player's development, their dribbling abilities being the most seriously affected, because the focus is rather on their athletical qualities, and you have the answer.





PS : KingKong, check your inbox !

[Nixx]

BTW, about Zidane's opinion : I don't know how much does he exactly know about football before he was born, but a lot of modern players are literally clueless when it comes to football history.

I'll give you an example : three years ago, Ronaldo claimed that Pele's international goals should be recalculated, arguind that Brazil played against some amateurish teams, winning 10-0 and Pele scoring 7-8 goals. If Ronaldo had moved this ass to do some research (and Pele's international record represents basic knowledge and it's very easy to check), he should have known that those games don't exist. Instead, he chose to open his mouth before gathering a modicum of knowledge and when he was ridiculed in the press for his stupidities he said he was misunderstood.

All respect to Ronaldo, who is a great player, but my 23-years old son knows ten times more than him about Pele.
So I will take such opinions with a grain of salt, unless you show me in what context did Zidane said that, what were this words and how did he back up his opinion.

As you said, it's about whom you want to believe. But the level of contempt you displayed in your comment (because your remark was not even a disagreement, it was contemptuous 100%, a kind of "what this old senile fool knows about, who does he think he is") points to me that you are going to make your choice not according to logic, but according to favoritism, choosing the opinion which suits your preconceived beliefs.
After all, when you have 2 opinion about a WW2 issue, who are you going to believe : the man who fought in the war or someone who was not even born at that time and gathered his limited information from TV and books ? The same here : who would be the most logical option ? The man who was there (Cruyff) in both ages, as a player between 1965 and 1984, then as a coach, who was coaching Barcelona when Zidane developed as a player, or the man who was not even born at that time(Zidane) and he had the possibility to experince only what his age had to offer ?

I wonder what kind of level the trashing of players like Di Stefano/Pele/Cruyff will reach. First, it was that defenses in their time were not good enough, now the nonsense that football is 10 times better and current players can perform some kind of insane tricks old players were not capable to do, maybe in 40 years from now others will say that Pele never existed, is not even a real person.

[Palacio]

you whats hilarious A.C. Milan say Ronaldo is fit but hes actually fat lol

[Palacio]

ill also say another player for you to compare Tevez, and Ayala

[Palacio]

plus people also think ronaldinho is better then Maradona BULLCRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ronaldinho in the world cup played like crap and just because a player can juggle good doesnt mean on a field they're good. juggling and playing a game is actually 2 different stuff

[kingkong]

No chance, Nixx! :lol: ...

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/4725/marinesdopushupsc61000uu8.jpg (http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://img263.imageshack.us/content.php?page=done&l=img263/4725/marinesdopushupsc61000uu8.jpg)

[Vipaman]

Vipaman, I think I have seen you somewhere before... :smoking: (you remind of someone with whom I already had this discussion...)

And who might that be?



One friend of mine said once : "Some of you young kids are so out to lunch that one can only have pity. I fear that you guys suffer from an acute case of videocliposis, a common condition among lazy children who can't be bothered to search for full matches so they satisfy themselves with video clips, resulting in a grossly distorted sense of reality. "

What do you have from the older generation if it is not clips? Does that constitute being "out to lunch" too? :lol:



These are harsh words. But they reflect reality. Watching videoclips is entertainment, watching full games is education !

I don't think they're harsh any more than they're your opinion of reality. What other proof would you like us to have then?



I fully expect that my words would fall on deaf ears

Just as you appear to believe your opinions reflect everyone's reality.



1. You bring Zidane's opinion into this. The problem is that his opinion does not have the same weight as the opinions of Cruyff and Beckenbauer.

You can apply whatever weight to their opinions that you want. You still haven't qualified their intentions or motives, which I believe I already addressed. They have motive to promote that their era was harder because IT makes THEM look better. Cryuff was half the player that Zidane was, IMO, or in my "reality" :lol:


He may believe the game is more technical now, but his era was the only football era he had the chance to witness!

You have a point, but as I said what have you had a chance to witness? And what is more about witnessing live than witnessing in clips?



This is like asking a man who tasted only beef what is better between beef and chicken !

Are you trying to say you were alive for the other era's and witnessed them in full?



Beckenbauer: "The speed of the game has changed. Today's football is more athletic. Back then, it was more estetic. Mostly becasue our technical abilities were of a higher level."

I disagree. The amount of tricks done today are done on a broader range in terms of players making them at a higher quantity, in a game where Beckenbauer does at least admit is faster and more athletic. That means that it would be harder to make those tricks in todays game, yet we see more players making them and at higher rates. That proves inductively, that the game is better now.



Cruyff: "Football has changed enormously - at the the cost of technique, unfortunately. In 1974, it was much higher than it is now. It's sad that that part of the game has been neglected in recent years, because for me, technique remains the core of football."

Zidane
Francescoli
Maradona
Ronaldinho
Roby Baggio
Jay Jay Okaka
Ronaldo

all are players that are better technically than Cryuff, and faster too.



2. You bring as argument a bunch of videoclips. I seriously question your objectivity

Objectivity? LOL, I seriously question someone who is trying to make this an objective comparison when all we have are subjective opinions. Do me a favor and don't pretend to know what objectivity is. What sort of "objective" data are you referring too?



while for Di Stefano you have a bunch of clips of crap quality, from miserable angles, with no replays and often so bad that you cannot even properly see what happens.

Go ahead and find them then. I did the best with what I could. Obviously there exists more "raw data", so your job in this "objective" debate is to present them if you would like to cite my use of video's as something that is not conclusive. I'll await your submissions.


had the chance to see Cruyff live and has 5 full games of Cruyff on his computer right at this moment (so I can check any moment) : the CL


Then you agree that George Best was easily more technically gifted than Cryuff? Also, is there somewhere you can put those games up? I'd love to watch them in between classes here at Uni. I think it would be fun.



So what I'm talking is not some kind of romanticized memories and I can compare the game back then at any moment, full game versus full game, not a bunch of videoclips which show 10 great pieces of skill which the respective player managed to do in a whole season.

Great, now you can share your data so I can do the exact same. Though I've seen quite a few video's and DVDs of Cryuff's best moments, I'd not hesistate to watch more.



Mate, let's not talk "in general". Let's compare competition with competition. Let's take the most prestigious one, the WC.At the last WC, what pieces of great dribbling have we seen ? NONE !
What great individual performances remained into history ?
What matches for the ages ?

Are you saying that just one comparison is reflective of the whole of the game these days? That's ludicrous. Are you also suggesting that in every World Cup of the other era's there were great feats of dribbling? Lastly, is dribbling the only measure of technique?

Did you watch Zidane toy with Brazil by any chance? That was quite a great match. I think the one semi final between Italy and Germany will go down in history like their 1970 semi-final too.

Oh, dribbles? Messi in the Serbia game.



There were no great solo goals, no bycicle kicks, no moments of great individual skill...

Rodriguez extra time goal vs Mexico was spectacular.



All the great goals of the previous WC were a bunch of long range goals based more on luck than individual skill (two of the greatest goals were scored by Maxi Rodriguez and Joe Cole - enough said)

Great you mention two goals in this cup and yet only mention one for each of the cups below. Is there that much of a difference?



It's really a sad indictement of the state of our sport when media went head over heels for that goal scored by Argentina against Serbia, when we had in the past team goals which put that one into pocket : take as example Maradona's goal against Greece in 1994, Careca's goal against France in 1986, Negrete's goal against Bulgaria in 1986, Eder goal against Soviet Union in 1982, Jairzinho's goal against England in 1970, etc.

Also, is 2006 the only cup of the modern era? We have, at least, cups from 1980 - 2006, as far as I'm concerned that should be considered in recent era. Then perhaps 1954-1980 as the era prior, and maybe 1930 to 1954 as the first generation. Fair?

So can we include individual performances in the other cups in this discussion? If so, what about some of the individual performances of Maradona, Baggio, Romario, Zidane, Klinsmann, Bergkamp for example?



What vast array of moves and dribbles does Ronaldinho do on a regular basis? Seriously, where do you guys get this idea that Ronaldinho is some kind of circus act displaying an endless array of "new" tricks?
Ronaldinho does :

1) No look passes.
2) Elasticos.
3) The occasional stepover.
4) The occasional spin move.
5) Occasional backheels.

And that is all.


I'm not a Ronaldinho groupie. I think he pales in comparison to Zidane.



What are these tricks modern greats perform so often and what is their end product ? A very limited number, who are very far from representing the core of dribbling.

But I believe we agree that tricks aren't the end all and be all of technique.



- great ball control ; for instance, take as an example Maradona's goal against England. What tricks does he use to get past those english defenders ? The same trick Ronaldinho to screw Real's defense one year ago, more exactly NOTHING. It was a classic solo based on speed, great ball control, sudden change of direction.

Have you watched Ibrahimovic and C. Ronaldo lately?



- decision making : this again is very important (the most important IMO) ; here is where the difference between the trickster (Denilson) and the great player (Ronaldinho) resides. Dinho could have ended like Denilson, they weren't so different at the beginning of their careers, but Dinho complements his technical skills with a much better decision making.

Yeah, I agree.




Additional requirements are :

- ability to change direction quickly ;
- speed ;
- strength.


Players today far exceed these areas of capability than players of the older era's. Even by Beckenbauers own words the game has gotten faster, therefore that these abilities above are more obvious in today's games the players have easily increased in ability over the older generations as well.



Now let's take some cases for study from one of the greatest dribblers of our generation, pre-injury Ronaldo, and see what's the end product of those tricks.

- The goal versus Compostela : the hosts lose a ball at the midfield, Ronaldo picks the ball, he is tripped from the back, but he manages to free himself, a defender comes from behind, but when Ronaldo accelerates, that defender is in a very compromising position, so Ronaldo moves towards left and dashes past him, Ronaldo runs towards the goal with 2 defenders trailing him, once he slows down one defender manages to get before him, but Ronaldo moves towards right to make way for his shot and scores, while a forth defenders watches at 2-3 meters away. Tricks used : ZERO.

Thanks, and exactly right. His technique is untouched by the masters of old.



- First goal versus Valencia : Ronaldo receives a ball at aprox 40 meters, accelerates, uses his speed to ran past 2 defenders and scores ; trick used : ZERO ;

- The last goal versus Valencia : Ronaldo picks a ball in the midfield, dashes forward while a defender challenges him from the right but Ronaldo's superior speed prevents the contact from taking place, he rans towards the goal at full speed, he muscles his way through 2 defenders (his great speed denying them the time to close the space) and sends the ball into the net before a forth defender, coming from the right, had the time to tackle him ; a great goal based on speed. Tricks used : ZERO.

- Goal versus Atletico Madrid : Ronaldo gets the ball at 40-45 meters, he charges towards a defender, but he quickly changes direction towards right and sends a shot into the low corner from 20-25 meters ; tricks used : ZERO ;

Four of the greatest goals of Ronaldo required NO TRICKS. And like that are many. Sure there are some when Ronaldo used some tricks (I remember an elastico followed by a goal for Brazil), but the majority were not performed with "tricks".

I'll have to repeat myself now and reiterate what kind of dribbler Pele was.


Dribbling nowadays goes through a profound crisis. In comparison to the generations of Pele or Maradona, current players are dummies when it comes to dribbling. It's a bold statement, but it's a sad reality.

Again, C. Ronaldo and Ibrahimovic would be two of todays young stars that would chew up that statement and spit it out without hesitation. You should watch some of their dribbles.

And the result is that developing the dribbling skills of players have become secondary - both at youth level, when the basic skills are learnt, and at senior level.

Lionel Messi speaks otherwise. So does Henry, and even lowly Mr Okocha. Zidane as well. Baggio. Francescoli.



Fast, powerful very high stamina and aggression and then comes technique.


Untrue. If that were true then the US and England should have won the last cup.




Since technique is often overlooked, phenomenal players will become more and more seldom. And, no, a good athlete does not have to mean a good football player.

I still don't think you've considered the vast amount of technical play from three small geniuses Ibra, C.Ronaldo and Messi.



As to why we don't have today players of the magnitude of Pele, Cruyff, Garrincha, Maradona, Di Stefano it's a very simple explanation :

Ronaldo
Zidane
Baggio
Fransescoli
Romario
Stoichkov
Gheorghe Hagi - full of technique, do you deny?
Bergkamp
Henry
Okocha (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/95090/jay_jay_okocha/) - or is his technique not important because he's not a big name for a big country that get's talked about all the time like Cryuff or Beckenbauer?

[Nixx]

Zidane
Francescoli
Maradona
Ronaldinho
Roby Baggio
Jay Jay Okaka
Ronaldo

all are players that are better technically than Cryuff, and faster too.

Zidane faster ? Good one. Zidane is the slowest top player I have seen in my whole life. Even Zidane fans admit that in terms of speed he is much below Cruyff, Eusebio, Pele etc.
The fact that you claim Zidane is "faster" shows me I'm talking to a wall, so I'm done with this.


What do you have from the older generation if it is not clips? Does that constitute being "out to lunch" too? :lol

I don't think they're harsh any more than they're your opinion of reality. What other proof would you like us to have then?

Just as you appear to believe your opinions reflect everyone's reality.

Don't play smart ass with me, kid.


You can apply whatever weight to their opinions that you want. You still haven't qualified their intentions or motives, which I believe I already addressed. They have motive to promote that their era was harder because IT makes THEM look better. Cryuff was half the player that Zidane was, IMO, or in my "reality" :lol:

You already adressed ??? :faint2: You just met an opinion you don't like and you immediately qualified it as "posturings". Cruyff and Beckenbauer are two players who influenced football as no one else, both as players and as managers, so if you presume yourself entitled to criticize their opinion you should come with something better than that lame comment of yours.


Are you trying to say you were alive for the other era's and witnessed them in full?

In fact, yes... junior.


I disagree. The amount of tricks done today are done on a broader range in terms of players making them at a higher quantity, in a game where Beckenbauer does at least admit is faster and more athletic. That means that it would be harder to make those tricks in todays game, yet we see more players making them and at higher rates. That proves inductively, that the game is better now.

We see more players making them and at higher rates ? How the hell can you make that claim when you have not seen even Maradona live ? Isn't that logical since the amount of footage you have available for Zidane is 10 times more than what you have for a relatively recent player like Maradona ? At it increases exponentially for players before him ? Come on, you can't be that slow.


Objectivity? LOL, I seriously question someone who is trying to make this an objective comparison when all we have are subjective opinions. Do me a favor and don't pretend to know what objectivity is. What sort of "objective" data are you referring too?

I think I already explained it, but, if you are really thick, I'll draw it in crayon for you : when someone uses an argument which will favor by default one of the sides involved in the respective comparison and which does not offer them equal chances in the discussion, then that person is biased by definition. Is that clear or you have problems understanding proper english ?


Go ahead and find them then. I did the best with what I could. Obviously there exists more "raw data", so your job in this "objective" debate is to present them if you would like to cite my use of video's as something that is not conclusive. I'll await your submissions.

Great, now you can share your data so I can do the exact same. Though I've seen quite a few video's and DVDs of Cryuff's best moments, I'd not hesistate to watch more.

I'm sure you asked me this because you thought I couldn't do it. :smoking: Ok. What do you say about the El Clasico from 1974 ? Agreed ? Confirm this and, by the end of the week, I'll upload it somewhere. I can't do it faster since it's almost 1 GB and my connection is not that fast. Also, I must find a site which could host it. Filefront is good ?

[Vipaman]

Zidane faster ? Good one. Zidane is the slowest top player I have seen in my whole life. Even Zidane fans admit that in terms of speed he is much below Cruyff, Eusebio, Pele etc.

I said Cryuff not Eusebio and Pele. How convenient for you to mention them :rolleyes: You're saying Cryuff had pace? Laughable! I also see you've ignored my request to put up the supposed video's that you said you had. Obviously you don't have them. That was an easy bluff to see through.

I also mentioned other players:

Zidane
Francescoli
Maradona
Ronaldinho
Roby Baggio
Jay Jay Okaka
Ronaldo

but you ignored them and focused on the one that you thought would strengthen your argument. That's weak.


I seriously question your objectivit


Objectivity? LOL, I seriously question someone who is trying to make this an objective comparison when all we have are subjective opinions. Do me a favor and don't pretend to know what objectivity is. What sort of "objective" data are you referring too?


What do you have from the older generation if it is not clips? Does that constitute being "out to lunch" too? :lol

I don't think they're harsh any more than they're your opinion of reality. What other proof would you like us to have then?

Just as you appear to believe your opinions reflect everyone's reality.



Don't play smart ass with me, kid.

Look Nixx, being condescending isn't helping your cause. Just answer the question. You're avoiding it for a reason. That reason is because you have no answer. It's an old trick, but basically it means you're wrong. Pretty soon you'll start insulting and creating a flame war to divert from a lost argument. You can take tips from Kingkong as he's done the same every time he's been owned.

You seem to think that just because it's your opinion, it makes it reality for everyone? That's a pretty good picture of an egomaniac. Get over yourself, and while your at it, tell me what's so objective of a "subjective" opinion, no matter what authority or celebrity gives it? In other words, your proof is no better than mine. I've cited a good dozen modern era players that do more than tricks, are technically wizards and do it in what you admitted is a harder arena. That's why I think the game now is better than it was when Beckenbauer and Cryuff pretend it was better. As if it's not hard enough to see through their motives :rolleyes:



You can apply whatever weight to their opinions that you want. You still haven't qualified their intentions or motives, which I believe I already addressed. They have motive to promote that their era was harder because IT makes THEM look better. Cryuff was half the player that Zidane was, IMO, or in my "reality"



You already adressed ???

Yes I did. Obviously it was to pad their own ego. They're obviously afraid that the stars of today will replace them in the history books, and rightfully so.



:faint2: You just met an opinion you don't like and you immediately qualified it as "posturings".

My opinion is that it is indeed posturing, while your opinion is that they are "objective". That's friggen hillarious. Who ever heard of an objective opinion, unless one is cited some sort of research and stating as a fact, but citing someone else's opinion as objective? :lol:



Cruyff and Beckenbauer are two players who influenced football as no one else,

Zidane tops them both. Influenced football as no one else? :lol: Oooo Kkkk

Cryuff and all the hoopla over 'total football' that won 'totally nothing' is funnier too. At least Beckenbauer won as a player and coach. While I admire Cryuff's ability, the man is one of the most arrogant sob's around, and I have Dutch friends that agree. He thinks his shit doesn't stink.



both s players and as managers, so if you presume yourself entitled to criticize their opinion you should come with something better than that lame comment of yours.

Lame is saying their opinions are objective then defaulting on any other bits of proof. In the end, you have your opinion because you are old and outdated, and I have mine.



I disagree. The amount of tricks done today are done on a broader range in terms of players making them at a higher quantity, in a game where Beckenbauer does at least admit is faster and more athletic. That means that it would be harder to make those tricks in todays game, yet we see more players making them and at higher rates. That proves inductively, that the game is better now.



We see more players making them and at higher rates ?

More consistently yes.



How the hell can you make that claim when you have not seen even Maradona live?

1 - I never said I haven't seen him live, it's something else you've assumed in this thread. Unchecked assumptions are never a good idea

2 - Every single one of Maradona's best performances are archived in full and excellent quality video. He was brilliant, but Ronaldo matched him on many dribbles. Both are arguable in the modern era, so both apply to my argument.



Isn't that logical since the amount of footage you have available for Zidane is 10 times more than what you have for a relatively recent player like Maradona ?

Zidane isn't the only player I'm talking about. Ibrahimovic and C.Ronaldo are two who in today's game that are technically brilliant as well. I mentioned others that you convenienty clipped off simply because they don't fit into your outdated view of the game.



At it increases exponentially for players before him ? Come on, you can't be that slow.

Since it's not something I said, and instead something you said then you're right. I'm not that slow, and please show some respect. You're going to have to try harder than to express my opinions for me in such an ordinary way.



Objectivity? LOL, I seriously question someone who is trying to make this an objective comparison when all we have are subjective opinions. Do me a favor and don't pretend to know what objectivity is. What sort of "objective" data are you referring too?



I think I already explained it, but, if you are really thick, I'll draw it in crayon for you : when someone uses an argument which will favor by default one of the sides involved in the respective comparison and which does not offer them equal chances in the discussion, then that person is biased by definition.

Sounds like exactly what you are doing by leaning on Cryuff and Beckenbauer and pretending that thier subjective opinions are objective.

Also, you're getting insultive. Three times you've insulted here when not necessary. That doesn't reflect the age of someone who pretends to be 50+. Insult again and you'll get a warning.



Is that clear or you have problems understanding proper english ?

This is an insult that most teens use on forums such as this. Clearly you're lying about your age.


Go ahead and find them then. I did the best with what I could. Obviously there exists more "raw data", so your job in this "objective" debate is to present them if you would like to cite my use of video's as something that is not conclusive. I'll await your submissions.

Great, now you can share your data so I can do the exact same. Though I've seen quite a few video's and DVDs of Cryuff's best moments, I'd not hesistate to watch more.



I'm sure you asked me this because you thought I couldn't do it. :smoking: Ok. What do you say about the El Clasico from 1974 ? Agreed ? Confirm this and, by the end of the week, I'll upload it somewhere. I can't do it faster since it's almost 1 GB and my connection is not that fast. Also, I must find a site which could host it. Filefront is good ?

Why the stipulation? Is it because you really don't have them? If you really did have them, then I reckon you'd put them up without hesitation. I doubt you have them.

Go ahead and prove me wrong, why don't you put them up without stipulation and let us watch them in full, since you're essentially trying to say they contain raw footage that isn't available anywhere else. Are we going to narrow the comparison to Cryuff vs say Zidane, perhaps? This was a much broader subject,but it's obvious you're shying away from it now that you realize that pretending subjectivity is objectivity wasn't going to work.

[Nixx]

Why the stipulation? Is it because you really don't have them? If you really did have them, then I reckon you'd put them up without hesitation. I doubt you have them.

Go ahead and prove me wrong, why don't you put them up without stipulation and let us watch them in full, since you're essentially trying to say they contain raw footage that isn't available anywhere else. Are we going to narrow the comparison to Cryuff vs say Zidane, perhaps? This was a much broader subject,but it's obvious you're shying away from it now that you realize that pretending subjectivity is objectivity wasn't going to work.

Which one do you want ? I can't put them all because there is no site who would allow me to upload more than 5 GB of data. Clear ?
Also, you would have to wait several days because uploading files around 1 GB is going to take time (at least when you have only a 256 kbps connection).


This is an insult that most teens use on forums such as this. Clearly you're lying about your age.

Unchecked assumptions is never a good idea, you said.

BTW, if I prove you wrong, are you ready to assume responsibility ? Accusing someone of lying is not such a great idea and you should take responsibility for your actions in case you are proven that you talked crap.



Also, you're getting insultive. Three times you've insulted here when not necessary. That doesn't reflect the age of someone who pretends to be 50+. Insult again and you'll get a warning.

Three times I have insulted ? How interesting. Have you checked your previous reply when you have insinuated that I have not seen more than clips of those players, thus practically calling me a liar (which you did again in your last post, this time directly). Calling people "liars", Mr.Moderator, is a little bit more serious than even calling them "idiots" and to THIS I told you "don't play smart ass".

About when I called you slow, excuse me for not finding a harsher word for describing the ridiculous attempt to judge which age is more "technical" based on a bunch of videoclips. What these videoclips show ? Several great plays, without making clear when did they took place, in what context, against what opponent, in what competition, how often did those took place. With some good videoclips, you can make Okocha look a greater player than Van Basten, because he was more "tricky".
About asking you if you understand English, I already told you as clear it was possible why clips are a flawed argument, yet in your next post you came again with that nonsense that "modern players do trick better and more often" based on what you seen on youtube ?

[Nixx]

Ok, I've started uploading the game Real-Barca from 1974. I made it a multiple archive and this evening I will probably finish. For now, the first 2 parts :

http://files.filefront.com//;7055454;/

http://files.filefront.com//;7055783;/

Parts 3 and 4 uploaded :

http://files.filefront.com//;7057195;/

http://files.filefront.com//;7057660;/

Part 5 uploaded :

http://files.filefront.com//;7058149;/

Part 6 and 7 uploaded :

http://files.filefront.com//;7058569;/

http://files.filefront.com//;7059325;/

Part 8 uploaded :

http://files.filefront.com//;7059773;/

Part 9 uploaded :

http://files.filefront.com//;7059852;/


This is a multiple archive, so download all the files in the same folders and unpack.

[kingkong]

:crazy:

[kingkong]

buffon is the worst player in the world, bcoz he hasn't a goalFunny!...

Pelé was also a goalie, had 1 300, and suffered NONE! ;) ...

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/1903/notbetternorworstjustdidi9.jpg

(In that pic he is playing an official Brazil Cup game against Garrincha's Botafogo, got it, Freedom?...

Never saw your 'god' doing that, have you?...)

_______________________________________________________________________
PS:

That's what I call a Brazilian dribble! :lol: ...

[Palacio]

wait a sec when you go to Brasil and ask who the best player in the world is most of them say Garrincha but They just say Pele because Garrincha lost the world cup final in 1950 vs uruguay

[Vipaman]

Which one do you want ? I can't put them all because there is no site who would allow me to upload more than 5 GB of data. Clear ?

Put up whichever one you think reflects his best. I'm happy to watch them one at a time if you're happy to put them up one at a time. In other words, over several days or weeks, or whatever.



Unchecked assumptions is never a good idea, you said.

Actually I was just commenting on how the variety of insult that you used was one I regularly here from teens, so it reflected on a lack of maturity that I thought someone of 50 years couldn't have. Apparently I was wrong.



BTW, if I prove you wrong, are you ready to assume responsibility ?

Sure, the same responsibility you'd have to assume in making such an immature insult. No problem there Nixx.



Accusing someone of lying is not such a great idea and you should take responsibility for your actions in case you are proven that you talked crap.

Funny because that is about all you've been doing. In your more "mature" age, you've failed to realize that making a point without throwing in some childish insults make the point you're trying to make come across a little more reliably. Anytime you have to end your statements with some sort of immature remark, you've just shaved off a bit of credibility IMO.





Three times I have insulted ?

Yes

nixx: "In fact, yes... junior." - condescending
nixx: "I think I already explained it, but, if you are really thick, I'll draw it in crayon for you :" - condescending
nixx: "Is that clear or you have problems understanding proper english ?"

How you made the cognitive connection with "drawing it in crayon" for me, and "understanding proper english" makes me wonder about you, and yes you did say both of those in the same context Nixx ;)





How interesting. Have you checked your previous reply when you have insinuated that I have not seen more than clips of those players, thus practically calling me a liar

You can take it whatever way you want, but that was my opinion at the time (that you hadn't seen more than a few clips, and I still dont' know otherwise other than what you've given for your word which is clouded with cheap insults, which doesn't give me a fair bit of reliability to go by). If you're that sensitive to assume that I called you a liar by questioning whether you've seen more than a few clips, then you have issues about that, not me.


. Calling people "liars", Mr.Moderator, is a little bit more serious than even calling them "idiots" and to THIS I told you "don't play smart ass".

Get a life.



About when I called you slow, excuse me for not finding a harsher word for describing the ridiculous attempt to judge which age is more "technical" based on a bunch of videoclips. What these videoclips show ?-

What do you're selective recantations of a few plays over several decades prove? Nothing more, nothing less. If I am 'slow' for putting forth a few video clips of fine players using fine skill, then you must fall into the same category by citing a few examples of plays that you witnessed over a few decades and trying to pass it off as if it was always like that. My point has been the same. The consistency that we see fine pieces of technical skill today is higher than yester-year (for lack of a better word) and furthermore, your admittance that todays football is played at a faster pace, I believe, supports my hypothesis that players need to be more technically skilled to accomplish such pieces of wizardry.

If you are really as old as you claim, despite your apparent lack of maturity, I'd be inclined to believe that you're just living in the past too and are a nostalgic romantic, still holding steadfast to the plays that got you the most emotional back then.

As far as proof goes. Neither of us have what would be considered "proof" by objective standards. So when I said that you were wrong in citing the opinions of two men as being objective, I was right. It's not objective. That obvioulsy angered you to the point of being insulting. That was the point you lost the argument.




About asking you if you understand English, I already told you as clear it was possible why clips are a flawed

How do flawed clips have anything to do with a command of English? You're really losing it here Nixx.



argument, yet in your next post you came again with that nonsense that "modern players do trick better and more often" based on what you seen on youtube ?

I'll borrow your own quote to answer this:

Nixx "Unchecked assumptions is never a good idea."

Three postings ago you said this:

"so I'm done with this."

yet you continue to respond with insults...

Too easy ;)

[kingkong]

wait a sec when you go to Brasil and ask who the best player in the world is most of them say Garrincha:lol: :lol: :lol:

'Wait a sec' you, Pal: out of question!...

You're just repeating what a few of your jealous compatriots invented (and obviously no one believes) in order to 'provoke' Pelé!...

'Innocently' on your part, I imagine!...

'WHO' SAID THAT 'WENT TO BRAZIL', 'ASKED' THAT 'QUESTION', AND OBTAINED THAT 'ANSWER' OBVIOUSLY...LIED! :sad:

If you come to Brazil, and ask such question to most Brzs (you'll have to ask - out of a population of 200 million people - 100 000 001 of times the same question in order to get an approximate answer from 'most of them' :lol:) - you'll for sure get a landslide for Pelé.

There hasn't even had ANY kind of 'poll' ever in Brazil to 'decide' that: what for if everybody knows who's The King?...

Just an insignificant amount of fans of Botafogo (Garrincha's team) - 10% of them young rooters - (out of sheer fanatism for their club), or some Pelé 'haters' (yes, there also is racism in Brazil) would vote for the 'Twisted Legs Angel'; the older Botafogo rooters, in their vast majority, would definitely go for Pelé (although the difference between the the geniuses actually was not THAT awesome)...

You can be sure that the huge - HUGE - majority in Brazil never said nor would say that!...

Garrincha, notwithstanding, was the 2nd best in the world, and 99% of the Brazilians are aware of that!...
They just say Pelé because Garrincha lost the world cup final in 1950 vs uruguayNow you finnished in a golden key your 'strepitous' fall from the ladder'!...

Garrincha never lost ANY World Cup final (played 2, won 2: 58 & 62), specially against Uruguay: in 1950 he was at his home town chasing little birdies & group masturbating in the woods with his adolescent fellows! :ronaldo: ...

Man, that's why some of you Argentinians have no credibility in Internet Forums!...

[kingkong]

See the posts above, Nixx!...

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/7977/71fc1ffc2.jpg

As you say:

It's hard to talk to a wall!...

[kingkong]

#23 (http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/showpost.php?p=817127&postcount=23)

Nixx, once for all, 'learn'! :lol: ...

[Nixx]

Put up whichever one you think reflects his best. I'm happy to watch them one at a time if you're happy to put them up one at a time. In other words, over several days or weeks, or whatever.





I already gave you 3. And you better hurry to download the one from Filefront (the El Clasico), because Filefront does not host such big files for long if they are not active.
And, btw, they are not "his best". They are RANDOM games.

As for your reply, nice attempt to save face. What about you put those 3 remarks of mine into context. For instance :

Me : I'm old enough to have seen Cruyff live.
You : Are you saying that you are alive back then and saw those players live ?
Me : In fact, yes... junior.

Me : I've seen full games of old players and I have such games.
You : What do you have from the older generation if it is not clips? Does that constitute being "out to lunch" too? :lol
Me : Don't play smart ass.


You : Those videoclips are my evidence.
Me : Videoclips are not good evidence because we do not have enough selections for old players and what we have are very far from representing the best moments of those respective players.
You : No, videoclips certainly prove that technique is better.
Me : Dude, can't you understand proper English ?

So, excuse my condescending tone, but it's difficult to cope with such a debating style. It usually drives the interlocutor crazy. Very frustrating, I tell you.

You win. As for me : :frusty:

BTW : Vipaman, did not Bosanac said that we should not argue this in the forums ? This issue was inactive for 6 days, the last post of mine was the one with links for the El Clasico from 1974, so why did you suddenly brought it up again and practically forcing me to reply although in the other forum it was suggested that we should not ?
Drop it.

[Palacio]

Away from Pele and Maradona



Argentina Rocks!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

and it not all argentinians are like me only people from buenos aires are :)

[Vipaman]

As for your reply, nice attempt to save face.

I haven't had to save face since I've never made up or created any circumstance where I needed to do so, but you have. You've lied about me calling you "a liar" then had to put the quotes below out of context to 'save face'. Looks like you've been out jousted again Nixx ;)





Me : I'm old enough to have seen Cruyff live.
You : Are you saying that you are alive back then and saw those players live ?
Me : In fact, yes... junior.


None of these quotes followed the other. Nice try Nixx.



Me : I've seen full games of old players and I have such games.
You : What do you have from the older generation if it is not clips? Does that constitute being "out to lunch" too? :lol

This is a complete distortion of what really happened as I'll show below with links (somethign an honest person is not afraid to post) ;)

Nixx:
"Some of you young kids are so out to lunch that one can only have pity. I fear that you guys suffer from an acute case of videocliposis, a common condition among lazy children who can't be bothered to search for full matches so they satisfy themselves with video clips, resulting in a grossly distorted sense of reality."
Link (http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/showpost.php?p=816492&postcount=18)

Vipaman:
"What do you have from the older generation if it is not clips? Does that constitute being "out to lunch" too?"
Link (http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/showpost.php?p=817727&postcount=24)

So already you "fibbed" with regards to the way you presented your quotes. I won't say "lie" since you'll bust another nut if I do. Either way, it was intentionally dishonest, so why should anyone believe anything else you say since it's already clear that you'll manipulate quotes to make them look in your favor?




Me : Don't play smart ass.

Here's what Nixx really responded to with that comment above:

Vipaman:
"I don't think they're harsh any more than they're your opinion of reality. What other proof would you like us to have then?

Just as you appear to believe your opinions reflect everyone's reality."
Posting #25 (http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/showpost.php?p=817754&postcount=25)

More dishonesty.

It's quite clear that in post #24 of this thread (http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/showpost.php?p=817727&postcount=24) I was responding with:
"What do you have from the older generation if it is not clips? Does that constitute being "out to lunch" too? :lol:"

to the comment Nixx made (condescending and rude):
"Some of you young kids are so out to lunch that one can only have pity. I fear that you guys suffer from an acute case of videocliposis, a common condition among lazy children who can't be bothered to search for full matches so they satisfy themselves with video clips, resulting in a grossly distorted sense of reality. "
Link (http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/showpost.php?p=816492&postcount=18)

That's the second time you've dishonestly manipulated the sequence of comments. Obviously you've done this on purpose and with ill intent. It's also quite immature of someone who claims to be 51 to need to go back and take quotes out of context, and even create words that were not said, in order to win a dumb flame war that he himself (Nixx) created because he is unable to make a basic point without being insulting.

It just highlights your intention in this thread, which is to be disruptive and essentially a trollish type of behavior.



You : Those videoclips are my evidence.

Not once did I say this, which is "FIB" #3. Again highlighting the quality of Nixx's comments.



Me : Videoclips are not good evidence because we do not have enough selections for old players and what we have are very far from representing the best moments of those respective players.
You : No, videoclips certainly prove that technique is better.

Not once did I say those words either. Shame on you Nixx. Parading around as a 51 year old, but pulling out tactics a 6 year old would use, then calling someone else "kid"? Too funny!

These are nothign more than lies Nixx has attributed to me, but since Nixx argues that I did indeed say these things, I challenge him to prove it, else he be known as someone who's words simply cannot be trusted. I'm pretty sure that it won't take more than a few minutes looking through the original thread for Mr. Nixx to do so:
http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/showthread.php?t=52416&page=2



Me : Dude, can't you understand proper English ?

Again not what you really said:

Vipaman:
"Objectivity? LOL, I seriously question someone who is trying to make this an objective comparison when all we have are subjective opinions. Do me a favor and don't pretend to know what objectivity is. What sort of "objective" data are you referring too?"
Link (http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/showpost.php?p=817754&postcount=25)

Nixx Responds condescendingly with:
"I think I already explained it, but, if you are really thick, I'll draw it in crayon for you : when someone uses an argument which will favor by default one of the sides involved in the respective comparison and which does not offer them equal chances in the discussion, then that person is biased by definition. Is that clear or you have problems understanding proper english ?"
Link (http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/showpost.php?p=817754&postcount=25)

Don't for one second blame anyone else for your inability to make a point without being rude all on your own accord. That's YOUR doing, no one else's.



So, excuse my condescending tone, but it's difficult to cope with such a debating style. It usually drives the interlocutor crazy. Very frustrating, I tell you.

At least you admit you were condescending, but you still need to come to terms with the fairy tales you created.

You've done nothign but create your own drama here Nixx. You should go out and kick the soccer ball around with some "kids" for refreshment instead of creating drama here to fill whatever void you feel.





BTW : Vipaman, did not Bosanac said that we should not argue this in the forums ?

No he did not. He said if you have a complain or accusations to make them to him in Private mail. These forums are chalk full of arguments, or debates, or whatever you want to call them, with one exception. Most people don't go to the lengths that you do in order to try and win a "subjective" argument, but attacking the person they disagree with with false quotations and assumptions made out of thin air, or at least when they do, they don't write a book on a few old memories and try to pretend that everyone should think like they do.


Look Nixx, so long as you continue to make up stuff about me, I have the right to continue to respond.

The choice is yours. You can stop trolling or eventually face the consequences.

[Bosanac]

BTW : Vipaman, did not Bosanac said that we should not argue this in the forums ? This issue was inactive for 6 days, the last post of mine was the one with links for the El Clasico from 1974, so why did you suddenly brought it up again and practically forcing me to reply although in the other forum it was suggested that we should not ?
Drop it.


Nixx, I have never said such thing. Well, quite frankly, I am not sure what you mean. But I will make myself clear..

You're not suppose to attack each other personally, meaning fight. You can't call each other names, and you're most definitly not allowed to have flame wars. Other than that, you're welcome to discuss about anything about football. That is what this place is about :)

[kingkong]

pele's skills of climbing trees is better than maradona, he looks like an orangoutangFunny, only ourangotangs in animal reign use their hands...

But no.

Maradona would never be an ourangotang: at the most a cockroach ('roach': something very familiar to him, anyway)! :smoking: ...
just a jokeAnd mine? Not bad, huh?...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Calif]

fun and jokes :lol:

[media_guy]

Pele was the greatest footballer of all time if not for what he did on the pitch, then certainly for what he represented off it.

[Palacio]

even though pele was a good in soccer he was a horrible parent thats why Pele Jr. went to jail for using drugs:lol: ;)

[tdr]

is Maradona on his death bed or something? (no joke)