First legally established case of Genocide in Europe since the Holocaust

[Bosnian Unit]

The top UN court's ruling, which cleared Serbia of direct responsibility for genocide during the Bosnian war but found it guilty of failing to prevent and punish the killings in Srebrenica,



The Bosnian Genocide is a term used by academics,[1] human rights officials[2] and by the ICTY in The Hague when referring to a case of genocide that took place in Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, during the Bosnian War from 1992 - 1995.

The Srebrenica massacre - where at least eight thousand Bosniak males were systematically killed by Army forces of Republika Srpska [3] - is the first legally established case of Genocide in Europe since the Holocaust, ruled as a case of genocide at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY). Thus far the Srebrenica massacre has been the only case which the ICTY has officially defined as genocide in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The UN's top court, the Hague, ruled on February 26, 2007, that no genocide occured in Bosnia during the war other than the incident at Srebrenica. Judge Higgins declared in the ruling that despite Bosnia's claim that there were other acts of genocide, "the evidence did not show that these terrible acts were accompanied by the specific intent to destroy a group that is the required proof of genocide".[4]

In 1997, Germany handed down first Bosnian Genocide conviction. Serb soldier, Nikola Jorgic, was sentenced to four terms of life imprisonment for his involvement in Bosnian Genocide that took place in other regions of Bosnia and Herzegovina. [5]


There is a significant disagreement between the Bosnian and Bosnian Serb/Serbian side about the possibility or scope of genocide in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the Bosnian War that has made this a controversial and contentious issue.

Despite the ruling in the Hague that genocide outside of Srebrenica is not supported by evidence, the Bosnian side claims and currently fights in international courts that Srebrenica massacre was just one instance of what was a broader criminal activity during the Bosnian War and associates Bosnian genocide to an intent by the "Serb side" to destroy in whole or in part non-Serb population of Bosnia and Herzegovina. [6] Bosnians point out the existence of up to 500 concentration camps run by Serbs where non-Serbs were tortured, raped and killed. The Bosnian side further claims that numerous individual war crimes including crimes against humanity, rapes and ethnic cleansing, committed against non-Serbs during the Bosnian War when viewed in its combined impact fall under genocide definition as described by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in 1948. [6]

Many Serb groups on the other hand espoused denial of the genocide, claiming that the intentional mass murder of nearly 8,000 Bosniaks in case of Srebrenica massacre is grossly exaggerated and that Republika Srpska government had no extermination policy.[7]

Some others, who don't deny mass killings by the Republika Srpska have engaged in pointing out "immoral equivalencies" (e.g. the killings and the ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Croatia) and/or justifications for the executions (e.g. retaliation or punishment for sabotage, terrorism, or subversion).[7] Some groups have manipulated the number of victims as an effective tool to cloud issues surrounding alleged Bosnian genocide particularly since there are vast discrepancies in original and more recent estimates on how many victims there were and which ethnic group suffered most casualties.[8]

There are several indictments relating to the Bosnian War currently at the ICTY including the Karadžić and Mladić indictments for genocide. Those genocide cases include instances where a significant number of Bosnian Croats were killed, particularly in Bosanska Krajina region which was under control of Army of Republika Srpska. While these cases are not yet finished they fall in the similar category of individual genocide accountability trials as was the landmark Srebrenica case prosecutor vs Krstic. Unlike Srebrenica case the scope of these ongoing trials is broader and allegations of genocide pertain to events in other regions of Bosnia and Herzegovina and crimes that were committed for instance in towns of Prijedor or Zvornik or concentration camps Omarska camp or Keraterm camp.


US resolution 199

Omarska camp detainees
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/Omarska2.jpg



On June 27, 2005, the United States House of Representatives passed a resolution (H. Res. 199 sponsored by Congressman Christopher Smith and Congressman Benjamin Cardin) commemorating the 10th anniversary of the Srebrenica genocide. The resolution was passed with overwhelming majority of 370 - YES votes, 1 - NO vote, and 62 - ABSENT . [9] The resolution is a bipartisan measure commemorating July 11, 1995-2005, the tenth anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre.

One of the mass graves in Srebrenica
http://www.international-law.us/images/Srebrenica.jpg

The resolution states that "the policies of aggression and ethnic cleansing1|2 as implemented by Serb forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1992 and 1995 with the direct support of Serbian regime of Slobodan Milosevic and its followers ultimately led to the displacement of more than 2,000,000 people, an estimated 200,000 killed, tens of thousands raped or otherwise tortured and abused, and the innocent civilians of Sarajevo and other urban centers repeatedly subjected to shelling and sniper attacks; meet the terms defining the crime of genocide in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, created in Paris on December 9, 1948, and entered into force on January 12, 1951." [10]


Ratko Mladic Recognized Genocide
Both highest ranking Bosnian Serb politicians, Radovan Karadzic and Momcilo Krajisnik, were warned by Bosnian Serb military commander General Ratko Mladic, also indicted on genocide charges, that their plans could not be committed without committing genocide.

People are not little stones, or keys in someone's pocket, that can be moved from one place to another just like that... Therefore, we cannot precisely arrange for only Serbs to stay in one part of the country while removing others painlessly. I do not know how Mr Krajisnik and Mr Karadzic will explain that to the world. That is genocide


Radovan KaradžićStatement by Radovan Karadžić, co-founder of Republika Srpska and its first president, alluded to the origins of this ideology on March 4, 1992 to the Bosnian Parliament. This speech is most often quoted to imply that genocidal intent among Bosnian Serb leadership existed before the Bosnian War:

"I'm asking you once again, I'm not threatening, but asking you to take seriously the interpretation of the political will of the Serbian people who are represented here by the Serbian Democratic Party and the Serbian Renewal Movement and a couple of Serbs from other parties. I ask you to take seriously the fact that what you are doing is not good. Is this the road under which you want to direct Bosnia-Herzegovina? The same highway to hell and suffering that Slovenia and Croatia are travelling? Do not think that you will not lead Bosnia-Herzegovina to hell. And do not think that you will not perhaps lead the Muslim people into annihilation because the Muslim people cannot defend themselves if there is war. How will you prevent everyone from being killed in Bosnia-Herzegovina?"


Bosnian Genocide Case at the International Court of Justice
On February 26, 2007 the ICJ ruled that Serbia failed to prevent genocide commited by Army of Serb Republic (VRS), but exonerated Serbia of direct responsability for genocide. Serbia also failed to punish those who carried out the genocide, especially general Ratko Mladić. Despite the evidence of widespread killings, mass rapes, ethnic cleansing and torture by different Serb forces which also included JNA (VJ), elsewhere in Bosnia, especially in Prijedor, Banja Luka and Foča camps and detention centers, the judges ruled that the criteria for genocide were met only in Srebrenica or Eastern Bosnia.[13]

[Michael Buckley]

The war criminal Mladic as well as others seem to be protected by certain people.Will they ever be brought to justice ? I hope that they are haunted by the screams of their innocent victims and that they are constantly looking over their shoulders.:mad2:

[boris4c]

On February 26, 2007 the ICJ ruled that Serbia could not be held responsible for the genocide committed in Srebrenica by Serb forces of the Republika Srpska.[1]

[poutismalakas]

take this TOO the politics and history forum!



DONE!

[boris4c]

I will certainly not deny Serbian mistakes in this war, but I will certainly not forget Bosniak mistakes and Croatian ones. True, a lot of people were killed, but let us look at the casualties tables, according to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (The Hague).

Total Soldiers

Bosniak 28,000
Serbs 14,000
Croats 6,000

Total Civilians

Bosniak and Croats 38,000
Serbs 16,700

Total Casualties: Around 102,000

Unconfirmed: 4,000

[Bosnian Unit]

On February 26, 2007 the ICJ ruled that Serbia could not be held responsible for the genocide committed in Srebrenica by Serb forces of the Republika Srpska.[1]

The ICJ is BS !

Serbia first attacked Slovenia,Croatia, then Bosnia & Herzegovina. JNA(Yugoslav National Army) was supporting (Bosnian Serbs) and fighting together with them against Bosniaks/Croats in Bosnia & Herzegovina.
It was agression from Serbia on other countries, i dont need no ICJ to tell me what i allready know.

IF not then WHY WOULD PRESIDENT OF OTHER COUNTRY, in this case Serbia sign Dayton Agreement ?

http://balkansnet.org/dayton3.gif

Since Serbia have nothing to do with Bosnian war, why would their president sign peace agreement in Bosnia & Herzegovina ?

Yea, thats what i tought :boo: !

[Centarfor9]

I will certainly not deny Serbian mistakes in this war, but I will certainly not forget Bosniak mistakes and Croatian ones. True, a lot of people were killed, but let us look at the casualties tables, according to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (The Hague).

Total Soldiers

Bosniak 28,000
Serbs 14,000
Croats 6,000

Total Civilians

Bosniak and Croats 38,000
Serbs 16,700

Total Casualties: Around 102,000

Unconfirmed: 4,000

i think you are refering to the

Casualty figures according to the Demographic Unit at the ICTY:

Total: 102,622
Bosniaks & Croats: c. 72,000
Serbs: c. 30,700

Also there is these most recent figures of the loses in the War in BiH:
Casualty figures according to RDC
(as reported in March 2006)

total victims:
Bosniaks: 63,994 66.5%
Serbs: 24,206 25.2%
Croats: 7,338 7.6%
other: 637 0.7%

Total civilians:
Bosniaks: 32,723 84.7%
Serbs: 3,555 9.2%
Croats: 1,899 4.9%
Other: 466 1.2%

Unconfirmed: 4,000
Note:Some 320 soldiers of UNPROFOR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNPROFOR) were killed during this conflict in Bosnia also.


It's also important to note that according to the UN 95% of crimes against humanity were commited by Serbs.

[branko 54]

It's also important to note that according to the UN 95% of crimes against humanity were commited by Serbs.

Sad but true!

On February 26, 2007 the ICJ ruled that Serbia could not be held responsible for the genocide committed in Srebrenica by Serb forces of the Republika Srpska.[
:mad2:

[Milos_]

Who was the genius that thought a politics forum would be a good idea?:yuck:

ICJ:boo: UN:boo: EU:boo: NATO:boo: "Western-World":boo:

SO 30% of the casualties were Serbian but 95% of "crimes agaisnt humanity" were commited by Serbs?makes perfecttttt sense to me:rolleyes:

[boris4c]

Milosevic signed the treaty because he was president of YUGOSLAVIA. Why did the US sign the treaty, did they participate too?

Serbia DID NOT agress anyone, as SERBS LIVE in Bosnia = they are a part of the country's population = no country attacked any other.

Let's take a quick glance at the 1991 population census in Bosnia-Herz.

Muslims: 43%
Serbs: 32%
Croats: 17%
Yugoslavs: 6
Others: 2%

How come 1/3 of Sarajevo was inhabited by the Serbs and now Sarajevo is something like 98% muslim. Oh, Serbs agressed the muslims in the city, that's why the Serbs had to leave their homes (...) They had to leave their homes because they weren't agressed (...).

More than 30,000 Serbs died in the war, which is 30% of the total casualties = we all suffered and died.

And what do you think. Do you think that muslims didn't kill Serbs? Do you think every Serb leaved joyfully in his home, watching TV, ate as much as he wanted, had fun? No. Every Bosnian Serb had to go through the same hell as any Muslim or Croat.

On February 26, 2007 the ICJ ruled that Serbia could not be held responsible for the genocide committed in Srebrenica by Serb forces of the Republika Srpska. = Justice. Bosnia will not receive a cent from Serbia for genocide.

[Bosnian Unit]

Milosevic signed the treaty because he was president of YUGOSLAVIA. Why did the US sign the treaty, did they participate too?

Serbia DID NOT agress anyone, as SERBS LIVE in Bosnia = they are a part of the country's population = no country attacked any other.

Let's take a quick glance at the 1991 population census in Bosnia-Herz.

Muslims: 43%
Serbs: 32%
Croats: 17%
Yugoslavs: 6
Others: 2%

How come 1/3 of Sarajevo was inhabited by the Serbs and now Sarajevo is something like 98% muslim. Oh, Serbs agressed the muslims in the city, that's why the Serbs had to leave their homes (...) They had to leave their homes because they weren't agressed (...).

More than 30,000 Serbs died in the war, which is 30% of the total casualties = we all suffered and died.

And what do you think. Do you think that muslims didn't kill Serbs? Do you think every Serb leaved joyfully in his home, watching TV, ate as much as he wanted, had fun? No. Every Bosnian Serb had to go through the same hell as any Muslim or Croat.

On February 26, 2007 the ICJ ruled that Serbia could not be held responsible for the genocide committed in Srebrenica by Serb forces of the Republika Srpska. = Justice. Bosnia will not receive a cent from Serbia for genocide.

That's why from now on kids across the globe in schools will read in their history books that Serbia supported GENOCIDE IN BOSNIA & HERZEGOVINA, AND IT DIDNT EVEN TRY TO PREVENT IT.

[boris4c]

Kids across the globe will never read anything about this. Reason: the West doesn't care, as awfully dogmatic as this can sound. I don't know where you live, but I hope you know people in the West don't even know where Bosnia is on the map.

[kanaryamerika]

Kids across the globe will never read anything about this. Reason: the West doesn't care, as awfully dogmatic as this can sound. I don't know where you live, but I hope you know people in the West don't even know where Bosnia is on the map.

sad but true.

but the same is true for other mass murders and injustice that is comitted every day around the world, especially in Africa. Doesn anyone care? Not really.

[-Vozdra-]

The court ruling was so dodgy. First of all there was a serbian media outlet that had published the court ruling days maybe weeks before it had been read. And it was the correct ruling that the media outlet published. Then the court found that serbia knew about the massacre in srebrenica and could have done something to prevent it. But then the court says that serbia did not commit genocide in srebrenica. And not to mention that one of the judges at the hague was serbian. Before the hague found its decision many people asked themselves the question what is stronger politics or justice. Now we have the answer and its POLITICS.

[Centarfor9]

http://img.iht.com/images/mobile/mobile_logo.gif (http://www.iht.com/)
Serbia's darkest pages hidden from genocide court
By Marlise Simons
Sunday, April 8, 2007

THE HAGUE: In the spring of 2003, boxes with hundreds of documents arrived at the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal in The Hague containing hundreds of pages marked "Defense. State secret. Strictly confidential." The cache contained minutes of wartime meetings of Yugoslav political and military leaders, including Slobodan Milosevic, and promised the best inside view yet of Serbia's role in the Bosnian war of 1992-95.

But there was a catch. Serbia, the heir to Yugoslavia, obtained court permission to keep parts of the archives out of the public eye, citing national security. Its lawyers blacked out many sensitive - those who have seen them say incriminating - pages. Judges and lawyers at the war crimes tribunal could see the censored material, but it was barred from the court's public records.

Now, lawyers and others who were involved in Serbia's bid for secrecy say that, at the time, Belgrade made its true objective clear: to keep the full military archives from another court, the International Court of Justice, nearby. And they say Belgrade's goal was achieved in February, when that court, dealing with Bosnia's lawsuit against Serbia, declared Serbia not guilty of genocide, and absolved it from paying potentially enormous war damages.

Lawyers interviewed in The Hague and Belgrade said that the outcome might well have been different had the Court of Justice pressed for access to the uncensored archives. Legal scholars and human rights groups say that it is deeply troubling that the judges did not subpoena the documents directly from Serbia.

"It's a question that nags loudly," Diane Orentlicher, a law professor at American University in Washington, said recently in The Hague. "Why didn't the court request the full documents? The fact that they were blacked out clearly implies these passages would have made a difference."

The ruling - 170 pages long - was in many ways meticulous, and acknowledged that the 15 judges had not seen the censored military archives. But it did not say why the court did not order Serbia to provide them.

Two of the judges themselves criticized that failure, in strongly worded dissents. One, the court's vice president, Awn Shawkat Al-Khasawneh of Jordan, wrote that "regrettably the court failed to act," adding, "It is a reasonable expectation that those documents would have shed light on the central questions."

At one point, the court rebuffed a Bosnian request that it demand the full documents, and said ample evidence was already available in tribunal records.

As part of its ruling, the court said that the 1995 massacre at the supposed safe haven of Srebrenica - when in nearly 8,000 unarmed Muslim men and boys were killed - was an act of genocide committed by Bosnian Serb forces, but that it lacked proof that these forces were acting under the "direction" or "effective control" of Serbia.

The ruling raised some eyebrows because aspects of Serbian military involvement are already known from records of earlier trials at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia. In late 1993, for instance, more than 1,800 officers and noncommissioned men from the Yugoslav Army were serving in the Bosnian Serb Army, and were deployed, paid, promoted or retired by Belgrade. These and many other men, including top generals, tribunal records showed, were given dual identities, and to handle this, Belgrade created the so-called 30th Personnel Center of the General Staff, a secret office for dealing with the officers listed on active duty in both armies.

The court took note of that information, but said that Belgrade's "substantial support" did not automatically make the Bosnian Serb Army a Serbian agent.
But lawyers who have seen the archives and further secret personnel files say than they address Serbian control and direction even more directly, revealing in new and vivid detail how Belgrade financed and supplied the war in Bosnia, and how the Bosnian Serb Army, though officially separate after 1992, remained virtually an extension of the Yugoslav Army.

They said the archives showed that Serbian forces, including secret police, played a role in the takeover of Srebrenica and in the preparation of the massacre there.

The story of the blacked-out documents, pieced together from more than 20 interviews with lawyers and court officials and from public records, offers rare insight into secret proceedings in The Hague where hearings, though usually public, can turn into closed sessions and deals often happen behind closed doors.

It took the tribunal prosecutors two years of talks, court orders and diplomatic pressure for the Belgrade government to hand over the documents, the much-coveted minutes of the Supreme Defense Council, created in 1992 when Serb-dominated Yugoslavia was fighting for more land for Serbs outside its borders in Croatia and Bosnia.

Before the handover, lawyers familiar with the case said, a team from Belgrade made it clear, in letters to the tribunal and in meetings with prosecutors and judges, that they wanted the documents expurgated to keep them from harming their case at the International Court of Justice.

The Serbs made this no secret even as they argued their case for "national security," said a lawyer involved in the negotiations, adding, "The senior people here knew about this." Confidentiality rules to protect "national security interests" have often been invoked at the tribunal, including by the United States, which has privately provided intelligence like intercepts and satellite images to assist prosecutors.

When Belgrade's lawyers met with judges to request secrecy for their archives, they produced a letter of support from Carla Del Ponte, the tribunal's chief prosecutor.

During a recent interview, Del Ponte confirmed that she had sent such a letter in May 2003 to the former foreign minister of Serbia, Goran Svilanovic, saying that she would accept that "reasonable" portions of the records be kept under seal.

"It was a long fight to get the documents and in the end because of time constraints we agreed," she said. "They were extremely valuable for the conviction of Slobodan Milosevic."

Milosevic, the former Serb leader, however, died before his trial was completed.

After the tribunal judges approved Belgrade's request to keep secret sections of the military archives, Vladimir Djeric, a member of the Serbian team handling the documents, told lawyers there that "we could not believe our luck." Djeric, now a private lawyer in Belgrade, said by telephone that he could not discuss his former duties at the Foreign Ministry.

Tantalizing glimpses of the secrets of the Defense Council - whose agenda included the military budget, promotions and retirement of generals - can be gleaned elsewhere. Parts of the archives that were not censored and were obtained by The New York Times include minutes of sessions from 1993 to 1995, when the war in Bosnia was in full swing. These wartime meetings in Belgrade were attended by the presidents of then-Yugoslavia, its constituent states of Serbia and Montenegro and the top military command, including sometimes General Ratko Mladic, the Bosnian Serb military leader who was twice indicted by the war crimes tribunal on charges that include genocide. He is a fugitive.

A recent book, "Unspoken Defense," by former President Momir Bulatovic of Montenegro, who attended many sessions of the Defense Council, said that in 1994, when more than 4,000 men on Serbia's payroll were fighting in Bosnia, the council discussed abolishing the 30th personnel center because its discovery might cause political problems. Yugoslav officers were also objecting to their service in Bosnia, the book said.

Lawyers and human rights groups have searched with special interest for council records from the summer of 1995, when Srebrenica was overrun by army and police officers, many of them, tribunal records show, in the pay of Serbia. Following the massacre there, the council met three times, with Mladic attending at least one session. Verbatim transcripts of those days are missing even from the secret archives, lawyers said.

Bosnia's team at the World Court was convinced that the archives and the military personnel files were central to their case. Before hearings opened in 2006, Bosnia asked the court to request that Serbia provide an uncensored version of the documents. The court refused, saying that "extensive evidence" was already available from public records at the war crimes tribunal. When Bosnia pressed during hearings, the court ignored the request.

In an interview, Rosalyn Higgins, a Briton who is president of the World Court, declined to say why the judges refused to subpoena the uncensored archives. She said it was the practice of the court not to discuss its findings. "The ruling speaks for itself," she said.

But the dissents from Khasawneh, of Jordan, and another judge criticized the court's refusal to seek the evidence. The second dissent, by Ahmed Mahiou of Algeria, said that judges had given several reasons, "none of them sufficiently convincing," including a fear of creating the impression that the court was taking sides, that it might intrude on the sovereignty of a state, or that it might be embarrassed if Serbia refused.

Phon van den Biesen, a lawyer on the Bosnian team, said that the unexpurgated documents most likely would have demonstrated that the Bosnian Serb forces were agents of Serbia, controlled by Belgrade. "This would have made Serbia liable for the Srebrenica genocide," van den Biesen said. "We believe all this can be found in the documents. The cuts are made whenever the agenda turns to financing and to personnel matters. That's why Serbia went to such lengths to hide them from us."

William Schabas, professor of International Law at the University of Ireland in Galway, who closely follows the World Court, said its judges may have wanted to avoid a diplomatic showdown with Serbia and that since it is a civil and not a criminal court, it was more used to relying on materials put before it, rather than aggressively pursuing evidence.

Antonio Cassese, a former president of the war crimes tribunal in The Hague and now a law professor in Italy, said: "I was rather taken aback that the judges didn't see the documents. But this is not an aggressive criminal court, but a very traditional civil court. They gave something to everybody."
Natasha Kandic, director of the Humanitarian Law Center in Belgrade, said she was shocked at the court's inaction.

"It was well known in the Serbian government that the archives spelled out the responsibility of the state," she said. It was vital for the public in Serbia to know the reality of the war, she said.

After the verdict, she said, she met with a leading member of the Serbian team, a scholar, whom she promised not to identify by name.
"He was very pleased," Kandic said, "but I confronted him, I said, you did not tell the truth." Her friend the scholar replied, she said, "It's normal. Every country will do everything possible to protect the state. Bosnia wanted a lot of money for damages."

Kandic went on: "I said that one day the truth will come out. And my friend said: 'But that's the future. Now it's important to protect the state.' "

http://img.iht.com/images/2007/04/09/web-0410serbia550.jpg
Bosnian Muslims gathered in Srebrenica in July 2005 to mark the 10th anniversary of the killing of thousands of men and boys. (Andrew Testa for The New York Times)

[boris4c]

The desperate search for an Islamic Holocaust
March 7th, 2007

At the Tenth Islamic Summit Conference Putrajaya, Malaysia on October 16, 2003 the host President, Mohammed Mahathir called on the world’s Islam to seize on opportunities and develop a doctrine that can allege persecution of Islam under fictitious pretexts and create an appearance in which Muslims can claim superior moral ground particularly against Jews.

Said Mahathir:

“But today the Jews rule this world by proxy… They survived 2000 years of pogroms not by hitting back, but by thinking. They invented and successfully promoted Socialism, Communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong… We must use our brains also,” said Mahathir and added that “There may be windows of opportunity for us now and in the future. We must seize these opportunities.”

That window of opportunity was the Bosnian Muslim suit against Christian Serbia alleging genocide. Regrettably for the Islamic Uma, the World Court ruling failed to anoint Islam with its desperately seeking Holocaust… committed against Muslims somewhere and, please! by anybody.

As a calculated idea, the desperately seeking Islamic need to have its own Holocaust is derived from a belief that Jews are running the world by proxy and are able to sustain that rule by, what Islam subtly alleges, Jewish moral superiority derived from Hitler’s genocide of them during the WWII. According to this belief, then, a genocide of Muslims, even if fictitious, would raise Islam’s moral standing against Jews and create a more favorable ethical environment in which they can justify their ultimate goal of Jewish extermination.

Put in a converse, and much easier for vast uneducated Islamic mass to understand, the reason why Islam has not exterminated all the Jews yet is because Jews claim the Holocaust and Muslims don’t.

Muslim genocide suit against Serbia, however, has several additional mendacious legal aims.

By seeking a legal fiat, sanctioned by the World, Muslims sought, along with the occurring circumstance, a reduction in the number of victims required to define a genocide and thus acquire, in addition to moral, also political power to convert a murder of any Muslim into a genocide of one!

Second and more significant for the Western global war on terror, the fact that all of the Bosnian Muslim men that died at Srebrenica were militant combatants would create a legal fiat where a Western military response against Islamic militant combatants such as the ones in Afghanistan and Iraq would, in fact, be declared a genocide.

As a court with no sovereign people to give it legislative power but a grant of appointed diplomats, the World Court did have, this time, enough wisdom to avoid setting a self annihilating precedent.

[Centarfor9]

^ you think you did yourself well by posting the propaganda post but actually you just show the picture even more

[boris4c]

you are embarassing yourself by stating this

[Centarfor9]

^ look at the content of my post...look at the content of yours

ethnic cleansing did happen and Serbia organized it, that pseudo-garbage and propaganda that is attempting to get inclined with west just because the victims were muslims will not get you anywhere

Serb tactics are already known, claiming that those were armed men and/or terrorists will get you nowhere

The court took note of that information, but said that Belgrade's "substantial support" did not automatically make the Bosnian Serb Army a Serbian agent.
But lawyers who have seen the archives and further secret personnel files say than they address Serbian control and direction even more directly, revealing in new and vivid detail how Belgrade financed and supplied the war in Bosnia, and how the Bosnian Serb Army, though officially separate after 1992, remained virtually an extension of the Yugoslav Army.

They said the archives showed that Serbian forces, including secret police, played a role in the takeover of Srebrenica and in the preparation of the massacre there.

now the blame is shifted to the entity RS but we all know who organized this and it was Serbia and chetnik dream of Greater Serbia

[boris4c]

Genocide throughout history

China: 73,000,000
Nazi Germany: 26,000,000
Atlantic Slave Trade: 17,000,000
Imperial Japan: 15,000,000
Democide of Native Americans: 14,000,000
Congo Free State - 5,000,000 - 30,000,000
Soviet Union - 4,000,000 - 50,000,000
Soviet prisoners (Nazi) - 3,000,000
North Korea - 3,000,000
Bangladesh - 3,000,000
Cambodia - 3,000,000
Armenian Genocide - 2,000,000
Rwanda - 950,000
India-Pakistan - 900,000
Croatian Ustasha - 700,000
Darfur - 400,000
Uganda - 300,000
Indonesia - 250,000 - 1,000,000
Australian Aboriginals - 225,000
Iraq - 180,000
and etc

the Bosnian genocide is not in this list, as it is not a genocide. Let's see what the definition of a genocide is. "is the deliberate destruction of an entire people or ethnic group."

When Serbs let the women go, and the boys under 13 years old, I think you can realize this wasn't in the goal of making the muslims disappear, like it or not. This will always be the best argument.

Around 30,000 Bosnian Muslims lost their lives during this war, and all I am saying is that IF the serbs wanted to commit genocide, they would've killed far more. But, this was not the goal, as you can like this or not.

[Centarfor9]

is the deliberate destruction of an entire people or ethnic group."
^that was the case, that was chetnik main goal

Around 30,000 Bosnian Muslims lost their lives during this war, and all I am saying is that IF the serbs wanted to commit genocide, they would've killed far more. But, this was not the goal, as you can like this or not.

around 30,000??? you previously posted:
Total Soldiers
Bosniak 28,000

Total Civilians
Bosniak and Croats 38,000
^ this would total in 64,000 bosnian muslim lives (according to you in your previous post)

here is a precentage breakdown:

total victims:
Bosniaks: 63,994 66.5%

Total civilians:
Bosniaks: 32,723 84.7%

in bosnia genocide happened, there are 1.8 million bosniaks in bosnia during the war was way less and the figure of 30,000 is great precentage wise if not greater that the most you listed

UN and all countries in Europe including Serbia agree that genocide did happen

even the region that you are proud citizen has said that genocide happened and that it was planned

[boris4c]

Soldiers don't count in a genocide. It was 38,000 Bosniak AND CROAT victimes together, and I would say 30,000 of them were Muslims, or less.

You do not want to commit genocide when you spare the women and the children. In fact, when you commit genocide, your main goal is to kill women and little children, as you do not want this ethnic group to continue to grow.

[Centarfor9]

Soldiers don't count in a genocide. It was 38,000 Bosniak AND CROAT victimes together, and I would say 30,000 of them were Muslims, or less.

You do not want to commit genocide when you spare the women and the children. In fact, when you commit genocide, your main goal is to kill women and little children, as you do not want this ethnic group to continue to grow.
i'm not familiar with the best tactic

women and children were victims in the war in mass rapes, trortures and killings

about the "numbers"

Total civilians:
Bosniaks: 32,723 84.7%

in bosnia genocide happened, there are 1.8 million bosniaks in bosnia (during the war was way less bosniaks in bosnia) so the figure of 32,723 is great precentage wise (when in comparasin to the total bosniak population present at the time of genocide in BH).

UN and all countries in Europe including Serbia agree that genocide did happened in bosnia

even the region that you are proud citizen has said that genocide happened and that it was planned

[poutismalakas]

Question WHAT equates genocide??? 1 death or 6 million? IMO it is the intent of those deaths along with the percentage of the dead to the population of the ethnic group that suffered those deaths in the region that those killings occurred! For instance if you have a ethnic group that numbers 1 million but 15,000 live some where else and those 15,000 are all killed to clease that area that constitutes IMO ethnic cleasing but NOT Genocide since as a whole that population can still sustane it's culture and ethnic idenitity! Now if you have let's up to 2 million deaths and that ethnic group's overall population is 3-5 million that consititutes genocide since the aim was eliminate as much of that population as possible! Also I think in the manner of the those killings happen.

For instance Im in NO way shape or form belittling those people who lost their lives or suffered horrible things in the Yugoslav war of the 1990's but I don't their deaths constitute genocide! Was what happened ethnic cleasing? YES Genocide...NO! If the women and child are left alive how ever treated they where they are alive. They can continue to propagate their ethnic indentity and culture while the Jews and Armenians the whole populations was killed in a attempt to end or significatly limit those ethnic group's ability to propagate!

In the case of the Armenians I agree that the could rebel against the Ottomans and some of those Armenians could have commited acts of rape, and ethnic cleasing but the Turkish response was to eliminate as many Armenians as possible in an attempt to limit claims of territory present at the time or future claims on Ottomen land?? Now the Jew is a different story IMO.

The 6 million deaths of the Jews was a systamatic attempt to eliminate an ENTIRE ethnic group and culture from several nations by the Nazi Party! If the women and children where left alive in both of those ethnic group then I would rate those acts as ethnic cleasing but Genocide since the genetic and cultural element of those populations was still intacted and the amounts of total death would have been smaller.

What is your opinion? Like I said I am NOT attempting to belittle any act of terror, tortour, rape, and force incest that was perpatraited on the Bosnian people or ANYONE else who was involved in the Yugoslav war or ANYOTHER conflict cause humans have and will continue to commite horrible acts on fellow humans and animals if given the chance to get away with it atleast if they think that they can get away with those acts!!!!

Remember that EVERYONE has had these type of thing happen to their ethnic group in the history of humanity!!!!

[kanaryamerika]

Genocide throughout history

China: 73,000,000
Nazi Germany: 26,000,000
Atlantic Slave Trade: 17,000,000
Imperial Japan: 15,000,000
Democide of Native Americans: 14,000,000
Congo Free State - 5,000,000 - 30,000,000
Soviet Union - 4,000,000 - 50,000,000
Soviet prisoners (Nazi) - 3,000,000
North Korea - 3,000,000
Bangladesh - 3,000,000
Cambodia - 3,000,000
Armenian Genocide - 2,000,000
Rwanda - 950,000
India-Pakistan - 900,000
Croatian Ustasha - 700,000
Darfur - 400,000
Uganda - 300,000
Indonesia - 250,000 - 1,000,000
Australian Aboriginals - 225,000
Iraq - 180,000
and etc

the Bosnian genocide is not in this list, as it is not a genocide. Let's see what the definition of a genocide is. "is the deliberate destruction of an entire people or ethnic group."

When Serbs let the women go, and the boys under 13 years old, I think you can realize this wasn't in the goal of making the muslims disappear, like it or not. This will always be the best argument.

Around 30,000 Bosnian Muslims lost their lives during this war, and all I am saying is that IF the serbs wanted to commit genocide, they would've killed far more. But, this was not the goal, as you can like this or not.


first of all, these numbers are BS. Second of all, why do you hate man? There has been a geonocide in bosnia. There are still ones going on in Africa,, Why not condemn the people who did this instead of being so silly as you are now? What's it to you anyway?

[Centarfor9]

The 6 million deaths of the Jews was a systamatic attempt to eliminate an ENTIRE ethnic group and culture from several nations by the Nazi Party! If the women and children where left alive in both of those ethnic group then I would rate those acts as ethnic cleasing but Genocide since the genetic and cultural element of those populations was still intacted and the amounts of total death would have been smaller.
^ children were not left in most of the cases and they were victims of tortures, rapes and killings

basically there are no more bosniaks in eastern Bosnia due to the genocide

the genicide was significant percent of bosniak population

you can deny it, even Serbia and serbs from bosnia agree that the genicide did happen in bosnia...all countries in Europe and UN agree that the genocide did happen in Bosnia

to me you seem like that president of Iran that claims that holocaust never happened (no offense...at the time chetnik forces would have completed their goal of "finally" wiping out bosniaks of the face of this earth but we defended ourselves to best of the abilities given the resources)

[poutismalakas]

^ children were not left in most of the cases and they were victims of tortures, rapes and killings

basically there are no more bosniaks in eastern Bosnia due to the genocide

the genicide was significant percent of bosniak population

you can deny it, even Serbia and serbs from bosnia agree that the genicide did happen in bosnia...all countries in Europe and UN agree that the genocide did happen in Bosnia

to me you seem like that president of Iran that claims that holocaust never happened (no offense...at the time chetnik forces would have completed their goal of "finally" wiping out bosniaks of the face of this earth but we defended ourselves to best of the abilities given the resources)

I am NOT denying anything I am only giving my opinion based on what Ive read here!

[ulster21]

basically there are no more bosniaks in eastern Bosnia due to the genocide
Why is Eastern Bosnia still a part of Bosnia-Herzogovina?? Isn't it the same kind of situation as Kosovo..... 95% of Kosovo is Albanian so it is seperating from Serbia............ if Eastern Bosnia is 95% Serb than why isn't it seperating from Bosnia-Herzogovina and becoming a part of Serbia?

[Centarfor9]

Why is Eastern Bosnia still a part of Bosnia-Herzogovina?? Isn't it the same kind of situation as Kosovo..... 95% of Kosovo is Albanian so it is seperating from Serbia............ if Eastern Bosnia is 95% Serb than why isn't it seperating from Bosnia-Herzogovina and becoming a part of Serbia?
yeah now that is the case but before the genocide it was mostly bosniak [there lies your answer]

[poutismalakas]

the same could be said about many other countries and regions?

[ARBANITAI]

Why is Eastern Bosnia still a part of Bosnia-Herzogovina?? Isn't it the same kind of situation as Kosovo..... 95% of Kosovo is Albanian so it is seperating from Serbia............ if Eastern Bosnia is 95% Serb than why isn't it seperating from Bosnia-Herzogovina and becoming a part of Serbia?

Kosovo is a totally different story from the serbian republic inside bosnia Herzegovina, Kosova was earlier an Albanian tribe, and it was occupayed by force in the 20th century by the serbian state.

While the serbs in Bosnia has allways been mixed with other ethnic groups from bosnia and herzegovina, like Bosniaks and Croats, so that means they cannot seperate, from the federation because Bosnia and Herzegovina is actually a country made by these 3 ethnic groups like Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. this is their homeland.

[poutismalakas]

Kosovo is a totally different story from the serbian republic inside bosnia Herzegovina, Kosova was earlier an Albanian tribe, and it was occupayed by force in the 20th century by the serbian state..
What about those Serbs that where living there since 600's ad??? they don't count?

[Milos_]

:lol:@ Serbs occupied Kosovo by force in the 20th Century.


If Kosovo becomes independent then Republika Srpska will do the same:thumbsup:.I love how Bosnians always say that RS is only 95% Serbian because we threw all the Muslims out but completely ignore the fact that alot of the Serbs that live in RS were ethnicly cleansed from their homes and forced to move there(How many Serbs live in todays Sarajevo?)...

[Centarfor9]

Kosovo is a totally different story from the serbian republic inside bosnia Herzegovina,
there is no such a thing as Serbian Republic in Bosnia there is an entity named Serbian Republic but in no way that is a republic

the names of the entities are about to change anyway since they do not represent all peoples of Bosnia & Herzegovina

[Centarfor9]

Serbs sentenced for videotaped killings of Muslims
By Beti Bilandzic
Tue Apr 10, 11:35 AM ET

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8374/20070410t102905450x363upg7.jpg (http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/)
Serbian war crimes court on Tuesday found four Serb paramilitaries guilty of the videotaped murder of six Bosnian Muslim youths in the last days of the 1992-95 Bosnia war. (Hague Tribunal/Handout/Reuters)

Four Serbian paramilitary soldiers who videotaped their killing of six Bosnian Muslim youths in the last days of the 1992-95 Bosnia war were found guilty on Tuesday by Serbia's war crimes court.

The men from the feared Scorpions unit taped the murders and circulated the trophy video among themselves. It was found by a Serb human rights activist and broadcast in Serbia in 2005, shocking a nation which until then had dismissed charges of Serb atrocities as hostile propaganda.

The film shows the men taunting the Bosnian Muslim youths before herding them into a clearing in the woods and shooting them in the back, while smoking and chatting casually.

Scorpions chief Slobodan Medic and his aide Branislav Medic were sentenced to 20 years in jail. Pero Petrasevic, the only defendant to plead guilty, got 13 years. A fourth man got a five-year sentence and a fifth was acquitted.

"By committing such acts against defenseless civilians, by showing off their power and showing no remorse, the defendants gave the court no option of milder sentences," said judge Gordana Bozilovic-Petrovic.

But relatives of the victims, who came from Bosnia and were brought into court under heavy police escort, said they were outraged at the court's leniency.

"This is an injustice," said Nura Alispahic, mother of a 16-year-old victim.

"They brought them there to kill children and now they freed one and gave another five years."

Natasa Kandic, who made the tape public, said: "Considering the gravity of the crime, the ruling did not deliver justice."

In the video, she said, the man sentenced to five years said to one teenage captive: "Have you ever ***ked? Well, you never will." The taunt was ample proof that he knew full well what was coming and was clearly an accomplice, she told reporters.

SREBRENICA CONNECTION

The killing took place on July 17, 1995 in Trnovo, southeast Bosnia, in the same week that Bosnian Serb troops killed 8,000 Muslim males 150 km (90 miles) away in the town of Srebrenica.

All six victims were from the Srebrenica area. But the court said there was no evidence to directly link the killings to Europe's worst atrocity since World War Two.

With the war still raging, Bosnia sued Serbia for genocide at the International Court of Justice in 1993, saying it was helping Bosnian Serb forces commit atrocities.

The U.N. court dismissed the claim this February, but said Serbia had failed to prevent genocide and punish perpetrators.

Bosnian Serb commander Ratko Mladic and political leader Radovan Karadzic, both charged with genocide for Srebrenica by a U.N. tribunal in The Hague, are still on the run. The European Union froze talks with Serbia a year ago over its failure to arrest Mladic, who was hiding in Belgrade.

Serbia set up its own war crimes court in 2003 to show it was ready to deal with the past. Tuesday's ruling was the latest in a small number of war crimes cases Serb courts have so far handled, involving atrocities in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo.

"Everyone can now be assured that Serbia's judicial bodies are ready and able to deal with such serious cases," said chief war crimes prosecutor Vladimir Vukcevic after the ruling.

But he also said he would appeal against the lower sentences as well as the acquittal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/10/world/europe/10cnd-serbia.html

[Centarfor9]

Visegrad Case Referred to Bosnia

By Merdijana Sadovic in Sarajevo (TU No 496, 9-Mar-07)

Defendants said to have been members of paramilitary group allegedly responsible for “brutal” ethnic cleansing campaign.

The Hague tribunal last week decided to refer to Bosnia the case of Milan and Sredoje Lukić, two Bosnian Serbs indicted for war crimes committed in the eastern Bosnian town of Visegrad between 1992 and 1994.

According to the indictment, Milan Lukić was the leader of a notorious group of Bosnian Serb paramilitaries in Višegrad called the "White Eagles" or “Avengers”, which – in coordination with local police and military units – carried out a “brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing designed to rid the area of all non-Serb inhabitants”.

Sredoje Lukić, Milan Lukić’s cousin, was a member of the same unit.

On one occasion in 1992, prosecutors allege that the two men killed some 70 Bosnian Muslims by driving them into a house in Visegrad, setting fire to the building and then gunning down anyone who tried to escape through the windows.

They are alleged to have employed a similar method just two weeks later, this time barricading some 70 Muslims into a house in the village of Bikavac near Visegrad and throwing explosives inside. Only one person is said to have survived.

The two are also accused of a series of other murders, beatings of prisoners and the general charge of persecution of non-Serbs.

Milan Lukic was arrested in Argentina in August 2005, while Sredoje Lukic surrendered to the Republika Srpska authorities a few weeks later.

They were both indicted by the Hague tribunal in 1998, together with another White Eagles member, Mitar Vasiljevic, who was sentenced in February 2004 to 15 years in prison for his role in the murders of Bosnian Muslims in Visegrad.

The prosecution had requested that Milan and Sredoje Lukic be tried in the Bosnian court as part of the tribunal’s completion strategy, which sees the court focusing on higher-level cases in order to meet its goal of finishing all trial proceedings by the end of 2008 and rounding up its work two years later.

The Hague tribunal has to date transferred nine accused to Bosnia and Herzegovina for trial, two to Croatia and one to Serbia.

Merdijana Sadovic is IWPR Hague programme manager.
http://www.iwpr.net/?p=tri&s=f&o=334743&apc_state=henh

[Centarfor9]

UN COURT ACCUSED OF ALLOWING SERBIA TO WITHHOLD EVIDENCE FROM GENOCIDE CASE
Radio Free Europe
Radio Liberty

The controversy sparked by the ruling by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) that Serbia was not guilty of genocide in Bosnia-Herzegovina was reopened on April 9 by an article in "The New York Times" that quoted lawyers in The Hague and Belgrade as saying the UN's top court acquiesced to a Serbian request not only to keep some of its records out of the public eye, but also to keep some documents from the court itself. On the grounds of national security, Serbia was allowed to black out passages in some documents allowed into the public arena. Lawyers and judges in the case were able to see these passages. However, the daily also reported that Serbia was allowed to withhold some documents from the court and that when, after two years of negotiation, Serbia handed over some documents to The Hague, it "made it clear in letters to the tribunal and in meetings with prosecutors and judges that it wanted the documents expurgated to keep them from harming Serbia's case" at the ICJ. The 20 lawyers and court officials interviewed for the report, none of whose names and employers were given, said that the ICJ failed to press for full access to Serbia's files. They believe that, if the ICJ had done so, Serbia might have been found guilty of genocide. The report quoted the lawyers and others as saying that Serbia was pursuing a broader strategy of preventing the ICJ from seeing Serbia's full archive. The paper reported that, after the tribunal judges approved Belgrade's request to keep sections of the military archives secret, Vladimir Djeric, a member of the Serbian negotiating team, told lawyers there that "we could not believe our luck." According to the report, the court nonetheless believed it had enough material on which to reach a conclusion, rebuffing a Bosnian request that it demand full access on the grounds that the tribunal already had ample evidence. However, in its final ruling, the ICJ concluded that there was insufficient evidence to conclude that Bosnian Serb forces were acting under Serbia's "direction" or "effective control" in the war or at Srebrenica, an acknowledged "act of genocide" in which as many as 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were massacred. One ICJ judge who dissented from the majority position, Awn Shawkat al-Khasawneh of Jordan, said that "it is a reasonable expectation that those documents [not available to the ICJ] would have shed light on the central questions." The ruling has prompted criticism from Bosnian Muslims, some of whose leaders argue that it reflects a general Western bias against Muslims (see "RFE/RL Newsline," March 1, 2007). Even the relatively limited nature of the ruling has been enough to prompt a major political debate about the future of the ethnic Serb autonomous region created on the basis of the agreement that brought peace to the country in 1995 (see "RFE/RL Newsline," March 1, 5, 13, 15 and 21, 2007). AG

http://www.rferl.org/newsline/2007/04/4-see/see-100407.asp

[Bigpappys_gun]

lets say serbia is responsible for ''the genocide'' in bosnia, then they will have to pay billions for war damages in bosnia. What do u think its going to happen afterwards ?? It happened to Germany after WWI, and where did that get us?? U cant blame it all on one nation and demand to pay for everything that everybody contributed to it. The ppl of Serbia will not just stand there and repeatedly getting screwed by UN.

[boris4c]

Serbia will not pay a cent to Bosnia. Why? Because the UN court ruled there was no genocide.

As for your tapes, I can show you most of them are fake. Have you ever seen the video when the muslim guys are "killed" and the tapes blacks out? And when it shows again, those "dead" guys get up and have their hands untied? :lol: Funny. I am not denying people were killed, tortured, raped.. on both sides, I am not denying this. Also, you say Eastern Bosnia is now clear of Muslims because of genocide. Let's all laugh together now. The death of 30,000 muslims is not enough to cause the total disapearing of Muslims in Eastern Bosnia. In fact, those 30,000 people cover all of Bosnia, not just the Eastern part. You make no sense. If the Serbian Republic in Bosnia is now clear of Muslims it's because it's borders have been to drawn in order to regroup the Serbs in one entity. Same thing for the Croato/Muslim Federation. What is being done in Bosnia now is simply funny. Rename the Serbian Republic because it doesn't represent the 5% of non-Serbs? Let's rename France also because some people may feel insulted to live in a country called "France". How can I live in France if I am not French? Non sense. Funny things that happen in Bosnia right now. But, we all now what will happen with Bosnia. Only a blind person, or a Bosnian nationalist won't see this coming. Bosnia will not last. If Yugoslavia didn't last, Bosnia won't either. This is the way it works. The West intensely tries to create a country where Croats, Serbs and Muslims live together in large proportions, but Yugoslavia, which was the same thing, was destroyed. The Croats now demand an entity in Bosnia. The separation is starting already.

To add to the main subject of the thread. As poutismalakas said, genocide depends on the proportion. Dead vs total population. There are about 2 million Bosniaks I would say, if 30,000 die, there is a massacre, there is no genocide. Period.

[Centarfor9]

Serbia will not pay a cent to Bosnia. Why? Because the UN court ruled there was no genocide.
UN court ruled there was genocide, Serbia was not responsible for it but VRS and "Republika Sprska"

btw there is no such a thing as Serbian Republic in Bosnia there is an entity named Republika Srpska but in no way that is a republic

the names of the entities are about to change anyway since they do not represent all peoples of Bosnia & Herzegovina just like the entity flags changed

---------

Bosnia's Serbs to lose wartime emblem
By Neil MacDonald in Banja Luka, Bosnia-Herzegovina

Bosnia-Herzegovina's Serb-dominated "entity" is to abandon its emblem – the double-headed white eagle – cherished among ethnic Serbs but widely seen by outsiders as a symbol of the worst atrocities of the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s.

A constitutional court in Bosnia-Herzegovina ruled that flags and emblems in the ethnically divided country must be inclusive, forcing governments in the Muslim and Croat federation as well as the Serb entity to rethink how they represent themselves.

Milorad Dodik, prime minister of the Republika Srpska, or Serb Republic, said a commission drawn from all three ethno-religious groups was devising a replacement for the eagle, which would be adopted within weeks.

Mr Dodik has worked hard to try to improve the Bosnian Serb image since the International Court of Justice ruled earlier this year that the Srebrenica massacre of July 1995 was an act of genocide. The February ruling cleared neighbouring Serbia of financial liabilities, yet directly blamed the RS, originally an ethnic Serb proto-state that arose amid the break-up of Yugoslavia.

Mr Dodik told the Financial Times he welcomed the closure the verdict brought, despite his unease over the stain on the RS's name. "The ruling is a fact for us, and we don't want to change it," he said. "We had objections . . . but that's just our view. It was not for us to decide."

The RS rejoined Bosnia-Herzegovina under the Dayton peace accords, five months after the massacre. As it is not a sovereign state, its government in the northern city of Banja Luka cannot be sued for reparations.

Nevertheless, Mr Dodik promised "concrete measures" for Srebrenica, the former Muslim enclave and UN "safe area" where Bosnian Serb forces executed some 7,000-8,000 Muslim men and boys during the war's brutal endgame.

Bosniaks – as Bosnian Muslims are now called – have used the genocide ruling to demand "special status" that would separate Srebrenica from the Serb-dominated entity. Under pressure, Mr Dodik has designated the municipality a "region of economic and social concern" earmarked for enhanced infrastructure investment.

The RS will spend €8m ($11m, £5m) this year to restore electricity and improve living conditions in and around the blighted former silver-mining town whose population has fallen to about 5,000. But Mr Dodik refused to "take Srebrenica out of the RS constitutional order" protected by the Dayton pact. "This is impossible and won't happen."

National Bosniak leaders have called for the RS to be abolished completely but Mr Dodik has drawn parallels between the RS and Kosovo, Serbia's Albanian-majority province that is seeking independence through a UN resolution.

After wartime displacements on all sides, the entity is nearly 90 per cent Serb. "Srebrenica is about 50-50 now, and more Bosniaks would return with the right economic conditions," said Gordan Milosevic, Mr Dodik's adviser. "People have the right of return, but no electricity."

Conditions throughout the eastern RS were poor for both groups, despite rapid economic growth of 14 per cent last year, Mr Dodik said, more than double Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole.

Cemal Durakovic, head of the Bosniak "initiative committee" that is pushing for separate status, said more development funds and the change of emblem were not enough.

"I will never feel comfortable in a place called Republika Srpska," he said.

(msnbc)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18058953/

[poutismalakas]

ALL I asked it that eveyone here stays calm and civil otherwise if it gets out of hand here Im closing this thread! Im not saying that is happening but Im just warning everyone.

[boris4c]

Yes Huso I know the emblems are taken out. Same thing is happening with the Croato/Muslim Federation = this is very funny. What will they do now?. Have a Serbian flag with a stripe of green in the middle and a little bit of Croatian checkboards in the middle? The design will certainly be magnificent. We will all await and see the fall of Bosnia, just like the fall of Yugoslavia. That land cannot last as it is now, and that land cannot be peaceful, as much as everybody would want it to be. There will be wars, there will be wars, as there were wars over centuries. Now a lesson of Serbian, Republika means Republic. I don't know want you want to say with this. Now, the Croats demand their own entity, which I am in favor of, and I already signed the petition. Bosnia = next Yugoslavia. = Inevitable

[Centarfor9]

^ the names of the entities will be changed and there will be bosnia will have cantons instead which will solve many issues

Croats are for cantonal type of government as are the bosniaks. Bosnian serbs are against that.

Bosniaks and Bosnian serbs are both against having three entities.

Big issue right now is the reform of police that's causing most of the disagreement.

p.s. there is no chance for any divisons of Bosnia due to the fact the entities were created

do you follow politics in bosnia? :)

[boris4c]

Yes I follow politics in Bosnia, and all I know is that this country will not and cannot last, you can like this or not.

Don't worry, do you think the Dayton Agreement will last forever? :lol: It will have to be broken sometime.

And I have to ask you. I don't remember the guy's name but it was a Bosnian Muslim who said America promised RS to Serbia sooner or later? I don't remember the name but I read this in "Oslobodjenje"

[Bosnian Unit]

Why is Eastern Bosnia still a part of Bosnia-Herzogovina?? Isn't it the same kind of situation as Kosovo..... 95% of Kosovo is Albanian so it is seperating from Serbia............ if Eastern Bosnia is 95% Serb than why isn't it seperating from Bosnia-Herzogovina and becoming a part of Serbia?


Come on ulster21, i tought you know better then that.

What if British attacked N.Ireland, kill and force out half of the people in Southern part of N.Ireland, now its only British there..........would be OK for them to unite with England(UK), i mean basicly take away half of your country ?

Its not acceptable !

[Bosnian Unit]

How many sick people we have around here ?

Some of these Serbs are laughing (:lol: ):boo: , and saying there was no genocide while............

QUOTE:The Srebrenica massacre - where at least eight thousand Bosniak males were systematically killed by Army forces of Republika Srpska [3] - is the first legally established case of Genocide in Europe since the Holocaust, ruled as a case of genocide at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY).

Now, thats just for Srebrenica but what happend over almost 4 years of war. There was 100.000+ killed, 50.000 raped etc...

Keep in mind, Bosnia & Herzegovina is small country with population around 4 million. Also there was 1.5 million displaced people as a result of Serbian agression.

Radovan Karadzic (war criminal said ):

"This, what you are doing, is not good. This is the path that you want to take Bosnia and Herzegovina on, the same highway of hell and death that Slovenia and Croatia went on. Don't think that you won't take Bosnia and Herzegovina into hell, and the Bosniaks maybe into extinction. Because the Bosniaks cannot defend themselves if there is war here." -Radovan Karadžić, speaking at the Bosnian parliament[1], October 14, 1991.


Did you forget about GREAT SERBIA ?
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/c/ca/Velikasrbija.png

You can see it right here, what happend in Eastern Bosnia it would happend everywhere if they were able to FINISH their mission.
Great Serbia would include Macedonia,Serbia & Montenegro, Bosnia & Herzegovina and half of Croatia. Did your forget war in Croatia ? Same thing would happend there as it did in Eastern Bosnia if Serbs were able to make their mission happend on the ground as they did on writing maps.

Did you forget Dubrovnik, and what they did in that city ?

I mean come on, what do we have here 14 years old kids who were not even alive when all this was happening ?

You have google,yahoo or whatever.........put in words like Bosnian genocide, great Serbia, war criminals (wich 99% of them will be Serbs) etc....and you will have better picture what REALLY HAPPEND IN EX-YUGOSLAVIA.

I can understand boris,Milos and others defending their people/land.....we are all proud people and its hard to admit the truth, but sometimes its better to swallow the pride and say the truth.The TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE !

Just to QUOTE Radovan Karadzic one more time:......Because the Bosniaks cannot defend themselves if there is war here.

You were wrong about that one, just like you said Sarajevo will be yours in 3 days....but Sarajevo was under siege for 3 years and it never fall in your hands. You were wrong.......BRAVE BOSNIAK PEOPLE ARE ALIVE AND STILL HERE, WHILE YOUR ARE HIDING YOU SICK BASTARD.

Do i need to mention that Radovan Karadzic & Ratko Mladic both war criminals ARE STILL HEROS TO 80% SERBIAN PEOPLE!

So how can you have peace when their children are growing under influence that this kind of people are heros?

Just like if Hitler was hero for Germans today.

I mean it will be better for Serbs to wake up and relize that they are losing.
Great Serbia was just dream......now they lost Montenegro, not even people just like they are want to live in same country as they do. Then Kosovo will probably become independent. And what we have, from great Serbia to this:
http://www.infobus.org/images/serbia_map3.gif
There was Beogradski pasaluk during ottoman empire, basicly it was just Belgrade and surrounding area what Serbs controled.......and if they continue their policy like it is today, IT WILL LEAD THEM RIGHT WHERE THEY WERE 500 years ago. They will have just Belgrade.

[IvanK]

Why do you bosnains even bother arguing with the serbs ??? there never gonna admit for what they did so dont bother. we all know what happened.

[boris4c]

Belgrade alone has a bigger population than the Bosniaks in Bosnia. You can say what you want. Yes, you are a proud Bosnian, and it is hard for you to admit that 30,000 Bosniaks were killed, not 100,000. It is hard for you to admit that many Serbs suffered and were killed. It is hard for you to admit that your people did nothing less horrible than the Serbs did except on a smallar scale because of the size of your population, army, etc. If I would say "ok every Bosniak now grab a gun and do what you want", we all know you would kill every Serb, I can say this now or I could've said it 15 years ago, the result would've been the same. It is hard for you to sometimes admit those things, I am not denying anything, I am just being realistic. While all you do is victimize yourselves and blame everything on Serbia. It is your only way to escape. All I know is that everything will come back one day as it should be, keep this in mind.

And, how are Mladic and Karadzic considered heroes by 80% of Serbs still? No, you are a liar. You don't know anything, which means you shouldn't talk about this and make propaganda messages flow through everybody's minds. For your information, the Radical Party of Serbia got only 28% of the votes in Serbia at the elections. This means that 72% of Serbia is anti-Radical = anti-Mladic/Karadzic/Milosevic. Maybe you should read some stuff before you post here.

Serbia "lost" Montenegro because 20-25% of the population is just Serb-haters like you. Bosniaks, Albanians, etc. Yes, they won by 0.4%. You say "they don't love us", but you seem to forget some things. If the people in Bosnia were allowed to have a referendum, everybody would go away from that country, and only the Bosniaks would stay. What would you expect. The Croats or Herzegovina would join Croatia, as it should be. The Serbian Republic would join Serbia, as it should be. All those votes would be around 90% for YES, not only a 0.4% win. What would be left is 1.5-2 million Bosniaks in a country the size of Montenegro. Bosnia is the only country (or perhaps Belgium too) for whom not even the majority of it cheers for it, or loves it, etc. Who goes to soccer games? Serbs? Croats? no. Bosniaks do. Yes, surely there are some Serbs/Croats that attend games, most of them are of mixed blood, but the same happens with Muslims in Serbia.

Let's not make any more jokes by saying 99% of the war criminals were Serbs. Let's stop those jokes immediately.

1.5 millions displaced because of SERBIAN agression? Let's all laugh together now. You know as well as me that more than half of these 1.5 million are Serbs, including 500,000 only in Croatia, when they were violently kicked out of Croatia. 200,000-250,000 Serbs had to flee Sarajevo. But yes, this is all due to the fact that Serbs decided to kick them out of there (sarcastic...)

Why do you call yourself "brave" now? Is any Bosniak braver than any Serb from Bosnia that lived the same thing? No. In fact, I don't even know why you say "brave" at all. We didn't do anything "brave" to survive. We just hid and waited.

And before calling anybody sick next time, you should think about it first.

[Centarfor9]

Let's not make any more jokes by saying 99% of the war criminals were Serbs. Let's stop those jokes immediately.
accordning to UN 95% of all war crimes in Bosnia were commited by serbs

that's a fact

Serbia got away with this but now all blame went to VRS and RS

also there is no such a thing as Serbian Republic in Bosnia...it's not a republic it's entity

[ARBANITAI]

there is no such a thing as Serbian Republic in Bosnia there is an entity named Serbian Republic but in no way that is a republic

the names of the entities are about to change anyway since they do not represent all peoples of Bosnia & Herzegovina

sorry man, i know, in fact i was trying to say the same thing, that the serbs cannot or doesnt have much of chances to seperate from Bosnia Herzegovina and even if they wanted too.. and the kosova situation is for sure a an all different issue..

My opinion about the thread is YES there was Genocide in Bosnia-Herzegovina in fact the srebrenica massacre was the biggest one after the wwII thats the fact. The serbs have to accept that they have commited crimes and genocide, not only in bosnia but Kosovo as well..

[Centarfor9]

sorry man, i know, in fact i was trying to say the same thing, that the serbs cannot or doesnt have much of chances to seperate from Bosnia Herzegovina and even if they wanted too.. and the kosova situation is for sure a an all different issue..
i know it's a different issue

Vojvodina, Sandzak and Kosovo can all separate but that has nothing to do with Bosnia and Herzegovina

[Bosnian Unit]

boris,

You have to know one thing. NOBADY FORCE OUT SERBS out of Sarajevo.
Mladen Vojicic Tifa (one of the best singers at that time) was a Serb and he stayed, Dragan Vikic one of the best Bosnian generals was a Bosnian Serb and he stayed as many other perhaps thousands Srebs.

But yes majority was for Karadzic/Mladic and its propaganda. Serbs left Sarajevo becouse they knew what was about to happend in that city.For example why would father who is on mountains around Sarajevo in Serb Army have his family in there while his is bombing, and keeping that city under siege for 3 years........without electricity water,food etc...

Serbs left that city and went in SAFE HOUSES/PLACES from where Serbs allready FORCED OUT Bosniaks/Croats. Just like Karadzic said Sarajevo will be in his hands in 3 days and then they all can come back in Serbian Sarajevo.

Well Sarajevo was never Serbian and that didnt happend.

Now after the war, Serbs come back to live there or they just sell their houses and went to live elsewhere.

QUOTE:The Bosnian Serb authorities, who oppose the Bosnian peace treaty's provisions calling for the Bosnian government takeover of the mainly Serbian suburbs of Sarajevo, have urged Serbs living there to flee rather than submit to government authority.

The Serbian leadership promised to establish rest stops and feeding stations for the refugees, but there were none. Nor had any visible provisions been made in Pale, a village of only several thousand inhabitants with no more than a few hundred guest rooms to spare.

Asked if he was angry at Bosnian Serb leaders for encouraging the exodus but failing to provide means for people to leave, the exhausted mayor of Vogosca, Rajko Koprivica, replied with deep sarcasm: "No, I love them."

Q: Kris, you described Krajisnik's behavior as outrageous and manipulative. Could you speak about it a little bit?

[...]iege mentality and fear in the Serb neighbourhoods of Sarajevo. That is what I call outrageous and manipulative. And at the same time, he is officially saying that he wants them to stay. It was like - I want you to stay, but I know you want to leave, and asking the crowd: who wants to stay? It is a vote by acclamation. I have seen that before. The problem is that he basically gave us a lot of trouble by scaring the people, by manipulating the media, and he wants to take them out because every Serb staying in Sarajevo is an insult to him or a challenge to him.

Q: are you suggesting that the latest plan to bring the Serb military trucks in indicates that that manipulation has been successful?

Janowski: manipulation has been successful in the sense that the population wants to leave. It has been successful; whatever their propaganda came up with, it was very successful because people are afraid and they want to leave. What they perceive as true is what Pale media is saying, and the Pale version of truth. And not the reality.

Q: so, you use the word manipulation.

Janowski: of the Serb population, yes.

Ltc Rayner: Thank you very much.


Google,yahoo.............just put word's Serbs leaving Sarajevo..........you will have every information about it. Nobady force them out, they wanted to leave becouse they knew what kind of hell was about to happend in there.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/Bosnia/updates/9602/25/refugee.jpg

[Bosnian Unit]

http://img.search.com/thumb/7/7f/Srebrenica6.jpg/350px-Srebrenica6.jpg
Screenshot from recently released video footage showing a Serb Orthodox priest blessing the paramilitary soldiers on June 25, 1995 just a few days before the soldiers were to be transferred to the Srebrenica area

Serbs leaving Sarajevo
http://www.nytimes.com/specials/bosnia/context/0223yugo-bosnia.1.jpg
A long line of cars, tractors and trucks loaded with furniture and personal belongings stretches away from the Sarajevo suburb of Vogosca.

http://www.nytimes.com/specials/bosnia/context/0223yugo-bosnia.2.jpg
In yet another of the refugee flights that punctuated the war in the Balkans and now mar the fragile regional peace, thousands of terrified Serbs trek over snowy mountains away from their homes near the northern Sarajevo suburb of Vogosca.

Serbian heros (all war criminals)
http://photos16.flickr.com/22185301_ed67849de1_m.jpg

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2006/03/27/PH2006032702229.jpg

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0320/csmimg/p6b.jpg


Serbs had time to take FURNITURE WITH THEM,and you are telling me they where forced out:boo:. Like i said, they left Sarajevo becouse they knew what was about to happend.........then when Karadzic would take over Sarajevo they would come back, but that didnt happend.......and ofcourse how they can feel comfortable to come back in that city and look into the eys of those people who stayed there.....everyone knows what happend......they just come back to sell their houses/apartments and thats it.


While Serbs had time to take furniture with them when leaving Sarajevo, most Bosniaks/Croats could not even SAVE THEIR LIFE !

[boris4c]

Vojvodina, Sandzak can all separate (...) There is a bigger chance the Mexicans get their independance in America.

Jednog dana ce se sve vratiti na staro, zapamtite.

[Al-Arabiya]

As far as i know everyone in the world knows that Serbs did Genocide and has been commiting crimes in bosnia and else where in that area.. :boo:

and who feel responsible for this ?

[boris4c]

SERBIA NOT GUILTY

The ruling by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on February 26 cleared Serbia of all five counts of the charge of “committing, conspiring, helping, instigating and collaborating in genocide” in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The ruling in the case brought by the Muslim authorities in Sarajevo is of great significance, since it has shattered some of the myths and outright lies regarding the Bosnian war 1992-1995.

To consider the significance of the ruling, we bring you a transcript of Srdja Trifkovic’s interview on the ICJ decision broadcast on CKCU 93.1 FM in Ottawa, Canada. We asked Dr. Trifkovic to acquaint us with the key points of the decision itself:

ST: The ICJ verdict states: “Serbia has not committed genocide, through its organs or persons whose acts engage its responsibility under customary international law. Serbia has not conspired to commit genocide, nor incited the commission of genocide and has not been complicit in genocide.” The verdict is fairly clear and straightforward.

It was almost amusing to observe how the mainstream media, the heaviest of investors in the “bank of collective Serbian guilt,” have distorted the verdict – notably the New York Times, which in its headlines put the emphases on the ICJ allegedly establishing the fact of the genocide in Bosnia and then in the subheadings facing that the Court admonished Serbia for not doing more to prevent it happening. That is news management of the most blatened sort, because it bypasses and conceals the real news in favor of the editorial spin. We have seen the similar reaction all over the spectrum. For instance, headlines in the Sydney Morning Herald over a Reuters story about the verdict said: “We know what happened, Serbia!” The Indianapolis Star said, “Serbia cleared of genocide but blamed for letting it happened.” The reader who does not go into the minutiae of the text itself wouldn’t really know what happened.

The ICJ verdict is an event of major international significance. The entire basis of the case against the late Slobodan Milosevic had rested on his alleged incitement of the Bosnian Serbs to commit genocide, and his supposed personal responsibility for its occurrence. It would be interesting to see, if Milosevic were still alive, how would The Hague War Crimes Tribunal (ICTY) spin, or otherwise deal with the ICJ verdict. As John Laughland noted in The Guardian on February 28, Slobodan Milosevic was posthumously exonerated by the ICJ ruling: “The former president of Serbia had always argued that neither Yugoslavia nor Serbia had command of the Bosnian Serb army, and this has now been upheld by the world court in The Hague. By implication, Serbia cannot be held responsible for any other war crimes attributed to the Bosnian Serbs.”

A TALE OF TWO TRIBUNALS

These two institutions, ICTY and ICJ, should not be confused. The International Court of Justice has been based in The Hague for decades and it is a highly respected institution that deals with the disputes between sovereign states, which agree to its jurisdiction in advance. It operates on the bases of established norms of public international law that have been universally accepted for decades, if not centuries.

On the other hand the ICTY is a political, rather than judicial institution. It was established by the Security Council of the United Nations in 1993 on the basis of Chapter VII of the U.N. Charter (Resolution 827), with the self-proclaimed “jurisdiction” for crimes committed only after January 1, 1991. The U.N. Genocide Convention could not possibly provide the basis for the Tribunal. It is an international treaty, approved by the General Assembly and ratified by member-states, which does not endow the U.N. with radical new powers. In reality, the Security Council acted illegally in setting up the Tribunal; it had no authority to do so. (Boutros-Ghali himself declared that, "in asking the Secretary-General to consider this project, the Security Council has given itself an entirely new mandate".) The formal basis invoked for the Tribunal, Chapter VII of the U.N. Charter, deals with “threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, and acts of aggression” and, to meet them, it authorizes the U.N. to deploy the armed forces of its member-states in peacekeeping operations. It would take a very flexible legal mind indeed, to interpret this as carte blanche to investigate individuals, indict them, try them, find them guilty and keep them in prison.

Invocation of Article 29 in the resolution establishing the Tribunal gives the game away: The Security Council may establish such subsidiary organs as it deems necessary for the performance of its functions. This amounts to an admission that the Tribunal is not an independent court of law, but a “subsidiary organ” of its political masters. But while the Tribunal remains fundamentally subordinate to the Security Council, its statute provides it with primacy over national courts, including the authority to demand the surrender of the accused. This is in clear violation of the Charter, which insists that the U.N. may not usurp the sovereign rights of states. The Hague Tribunal amounts to the abandonment of positive international law and a revision of the U.N. Charter. A dangerous precedent has been created, and it would be shortsighted for the American public to overlook it. ICTY may yet prove to be a step towards the globalist dream of a permanent International Criminal Tribunal.

The proponents of the myth of Serbian guilt deliberately inserted the new quasi-judicial institution into The Hague to confuse the issue, to create an aura of respectability for an ad hoc politicized Tribunal that has no bases in international law and which makes its rules and procedures as it goes along. Its verdicts are not dependent on the gravity of the alleged crime but on whether the accused are Serbs, Croats, Albanians or Muslims.

BB: Was the decision to accept the claim of genocide in Srebrenica a political decision by the ICJ, or a decision based on the international law?

ST: The International Court of Justice in this case accepted the opinion of the War Crimes Tribunal because it was politically impossible to do otherwise. It would have meant an explicit denial of the ICTY verdict and it would have brought the backers of the both institutions into an abnormal situation which the ICJ cannot afford.

By the same token the ICTY is now in a rather unpleasant situation, because it still has in dock Serbian officials and politicians who are blamed for “genocide” across the Drina, notably Dr. Vojislav Seselj. Unless they drop the charges now, it will be in totally untenable situation: the ICJ has accepted the opinion of the ICTY on the genocide issue, but the ICTY does not accept the consequences of the ICJ ruling on the complicity of Serbia and Belgrade.

BB: Who benefited from this decision?

ST: The decision reflects the fact that the ICJ modus operandi is based on the traditional application of international law. It is not subject to the voluntaristic, ad hoc use and abuse of the law for political ends as we go along. Unlike the ICTY, ICJ was established at the time when international law was still regarded as the province of genuine jurists and not of politicians who use quasi-legal and pseudo-legal means to pursue political ends. The main beneficiary is the remaining sense of legality in international relations – much to the chagrin of the international chorus of Serbophobes in the academia, the media and political establishments of different countries. They of course already “know” that the Serbs are guilty by definition and that any verdict should simply reflect that inviolable “fact.”

BB: Will this decision destabilize the Republika Srpska, however, and in particular the relations among three constituent nations of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

ST: Those relations are already as destabilized as they can be. We do not need any legal decisions to make them any worse. They are about as fragile as they had been in 1991-1992, on the eve of the inter-ethnic civil war in Bosnia. At least with the decision of the ICJ we know that it was an internal Bosnian affair, and not a matter of Serbian aggression. The crimes and violations of human rights that followed in 1992-1995 were not the direct result of anyone’s nationalist project as such. These crimes were the results of the war and their particular characteristics, not the causes. The crimes of the warring parties, however severely they must be judged, were the consequence of a great, complex international blunder, and of Izetbegovic’s decision to secede. Events cut channels deeper and less controllable than the intentions of anyone.

The fighting became an extrapolation of a collapsed Bosnian social structure, it started as an event in a Yugoslav civil war. It is simply unintelligible on other terms. The war is not explained by “ancient hatreds” but by loyalties, by anger and by suspicion. The Yugoslav loyalties were twentieth-century, but the suspicions – automatic distrust in time of danger – were rooted in the pre-Yugoslav past.

In the end, the effect of the legal intervention of the “international community” with its act of recognition was that a Yugoslav loyalty was made to look like a conspiratorial disloyalty to “Bosnia” – largely in the eyes of people who supposed ex hypothesi that if there is a “Bosnia” there must be a nation of “Bosnians.” Never was there a better case of the accuracy of the old English rhyme:

Treason doth never prosper. What’s the reason?
If it prospers, none dare call it treason.

Law courts throughout the ages have failed to escape this dismal logic

[Al-Arabiya]

if serbs feel un-guilty... then who is the guilty ones for the massacres, as far as im convinced they were not italian, german or hungarian soldiers but serbian military soldiers that commited the crimes and the genocide.. i have nothing against u but u have to accep the truth

[Bigpappys_gun]

if serbs feel un-guilty... then who is the guilty ones for the massacres, as far as im convinced they were not italian, german or hungarian soldiers but serbian military soldiers that commited the crimes and the genocide.. i have nothing against u but u have to accep the truth

how do u know ?? The world knows what!! American propoganda to destroy communist countries ??

[Saraj Fanático]

Belgrade alone has a bigger population than the Bosniaks in Bosnia. You can say what you want. Yes, you are a proud Bosnian, and it is hard for you to admit that 30,000 Bosniaks were killed, not 100,000. It is hard for you to admit that many Serbs suffered and were killed. It is hard for you to admit that your people did nothing less horrible than the Serbs did except on a smallar scale because of the size of your population, army, etc. If I would say "ok every Bosniak now grab a gun and do what you want", we all know you would kill every Serb, I can say this now or I could've said it 15 years ago, the result would've been the same. It is hard for you to sometimes admit those things, I am not denying anything, I am just being realistic. While all you do is victimize yourselves and blame everything on Serbia. It is your only way to escape. All I know is that everything will come back one day as it should be, keep this in mind.

Actually General Dudakovic had the chance to commit mass scale massacres on Serbs and make a Srebrenica out of every place he took over. Did he? No. His motivation was freedom, not revenge. The same went for any Bosnian Soldier.

We don't victimize our selfs. The fact is that Karadzic's men had raped, massacred, victimized, and planned on killing off an entire ethnic race. He said it himself when he stated that 'Muslims will take the same road to hell as Croatia and Slovenia' and offcourse his dream wish 'This might be the end of the Muslim people'. Don't come up with BS sayign we victimized ourselfs. You have seen footage of Terrorists gunning down kids of about 10 years of age for this same cause Karadzic annoucned.

And, how are Mladic and Karadzic considered heroes by 80% of Serbs still? No, you are a liar. You don't know anything, which means you shouldn't talk about this and make propaganda messages flow through everybody's minds. For your information, the Radical Party of Serbia got only 28% of the votes in Serbia at the elections. This means that 72% of Serbia is anti-Radical = anti-Mladic/Karadzic/Milosevic. Maybe you should read some stuff before you post here.


I am not commenting on this since this is between you and Bosnian. But I would say that yeah many Serbs don't like Karadzic and Mladic because of Milosevic's cause of the Belgrade bombardment. All 3 are the same crap to me. And I think its not fair to say that Serbs all love Mladic and Karadzic while a good number do but not 80%.

If the people in Bosnia were allowed to have a referendum, everybody would go away from that country, and only the Bosniaks would stay. What would you expect. The Croats or Herzegovina would join Croatia, as it should be. The Serbian Republic would join Serbia, as it should be. All those votes would be around 90% for YES, not only a 0.4% win. What would be left is 1.5-2 million Bosniaks in a country the size of Montenegro. Bosnia is the only country (or perhaps Belgium too) for whom not even the majority of it cheers for it, or loves it, etc. Who goes to soccer games? Serbs? Croats? no. Bosniaks do. Yes, surely there are some Serbs/Croats that attend games, most of them are of mixed blood, but the same happens with Muslims in Serbia.

Those that want to split and love living in Serbia or Croatia can freely move the f*** out of this nation. You sure as hell won't EVER take land from us. Herzegovina isn't in any wish of Croats in Croatia. Only some people from Herzegovina want it. :lol: Ever the Croatian president told those who wnat herzegovina to join Croatia thta their nation is Bosnia and Herzegovina and Herceg Bosna isn't in Croatian interest. Svaka mu cast! The Serbian Republic has no damn link to Serbia except the crimes they have created. What has Serbia ever done for you may I ask? All they ever did was get weapons over to OUR country (BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA) and watch people kill each other. They turned the nation you step on and live in into a slaughter house. yet here you are telling me Serbia and the Serb Republic should be together? No way in hell will it ever happen. It might happen in the year 2100. But be prepared for Kosovo and Vojvodina splitting from Serbia. :lol: You can't always have it your way.

Oh and if Republic of Serbia ever does get announced independent (I doubt it 110%), I will personally swear to you that there would be another war but this time with the fall of Banja Luka as the conclusion before the US can rescue it. Hell I will personally enlist just to watch the cancer in BiH get eliminated. Serbia has a nation. Jump over the border and visit. Otherwise your living in BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA. Call it Republika Srpska but the fact remains that that piece of land is not recognized as a state and will never. Maybe the Serbs who are in favor of this sick wish of having their own nation broken up should think why must they suffer to keep Karadzics legacy going? Karadzic is a smelly douche who runs and hides and doesn't even care about his own families sake... not to mention the citizens of Republika Srpska!!! What reason do you have to be hungry and suffering for that clown or Serbia?




Why do you call yourself "brave" now? Is any Bosniak braver than any Serb from Bosnia that lived the same thing? No. In fact, I don't even know why you say "brave" at all. We didn't do anything "brave" to survive. We just hid and waited.

And before calling anybody sick next time, you should think about it first.

The Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina has pulled off the biggest act of bravery ever done. We fought for a single BiH while all odds were against us and Europe also. We survived. They sure as hell didn't 'Hide' or 'Wait'. But fought. And with that said we surprised the world. Didn't do anything brave to survive my ass. We have done something that the entire world cannot believe.

[Al-Arabiya]

how do u know ?? The world knows what!! American propoganda to destroy communist countries ??

I dont listen to that. but the videos clearly showes you who was who, and who did what (crimes genocide etc).. and i have friends that have experienced the war them selfes and told me.. dont blame media, its not about media, thats just the truth one.

[Saraj Fanático]

I dont listen to that. but the videos clearly showes you who was who, and who did what (crimes genocide etc).. and i have friends that have experienced the war them selfes and told me.. dont blame media, its not about media, thats just the truth one.


No Serbia isn't responsible. Bozo the clown and his army is. :lol:

[boris4c]

Everybody knows this was a mediatic war won by the Muslims. I can find you a multitude of videos of Muslims killing Serbs. I can find you the video where the Muslims get "killed" and come to life back again 1 minute later :lol:. Btw, that video was the main argument to prove Srebrenica (It is with the boy with the blue/green coat, everybody knows this video). He gets "shot" many times by the "Scorpions" in the back and falls. This is the end of the video = Serbs killed Muslim civilians. But, what we don't see is the continuation of the video, which shows the same people get up, and have their hands untied by the "Scorpions" who are Bosniaks in Scorpion uniforms. They wash the ketchup off their clothes. It is also very funny when we see "muslims" on CNN wearing crosses, but the people are so blind they don't even think about this. We can't blame the Westerners for their ignorance, they were blinded by American/Bosniak propaganda messages and mediatic lies. Yes, some of these things did happen, but none of the crimes on Serbs were portrayed. Very funny was the reporting on some Canadian soldier who was cleaning mines in Bosnia and died. This was made by a Canadian channel. They tried to show the Serbs as well and someone who understands the language clearly hears the women saying how the Muslims massacred their family members. What happens is that the translator is a Bosniak, who refuses to translate that and instead we hear "They" and we hear the women talking while the public doesn't know who this woman is. "They massacred our family members" Once again the blame goes on the Serbs. Awful what the world has done. One day, everything will come back to normal. You can only dream that Serbia will continue falling into pieces like Vojvodina and Sandzak. Don't be blinded by everything you hear/see. Bosnia will fall into pieces well before Serbia. Please don't tell me the Croats in Bosnia don't wanna join Croatia :lol: I have been there and you can see unofficial signs of "Welcome to Croatia" everywhere. My teacher has been to Medjugorje and she almost made a bet with me that it was in Croatia. I told her "no its in Bosnia" but she said "no everybody told me this was Croatia, I was in Split in Croatia and went to Medjugorje, I didn't change countries". She even used "kunas" to pay her coffee. Now, Serbs cannot be divided by an imaginary air line called a "border". Is the Serb living in Bijeljina any different from the one living 5km away in Serbia? Surely not. We are one people.

There is the hockey world cup in Zagreb right now for Division II Group A and the Serbian team got attacked today by the Croats in the street. They were just walking but go recognized. This would never happen in Belgrade, this proves of Serbian tolerance. Those things just don't happen. The Ottoman Empire flag is still waving on the Bajrakli Mosque in Belgrade and nobody is even thinking about taking it down or anything while a guy on Croatian TV has a tie similar to a Serbian flag and he gets life-threatening messages (???).

[Bigpappys_gun]

I dont listen to that. but the videos clearly showes you who was who, and who did what (crimes genocide etc).. and i have friends that have experienced the war them selfes and told me.. dont blame media, its not about media, thats just the truth one.

first, if u think about it how is it possible to see videos of such atrocities, first possibility would be that the serbs were filming it, Why would serbs film such things and show it to world how bad they are ? Second possibility would be that an outsider was filming, but what are the probabilities that he didnt get caught or the probability to get good angles to capture everything perfectly. I cant tell u more because i havent seen those videos, but by experience usually in those videos u only see corpses and we dont know how they got killed.

Second, me too I have witness the war, and some members of my family were kidnapped during the war and we never saw them again. One of my Uncles, who is a bosnian muslim had hepatitis a, he needed his medication to survive but the bridges were destroyed by croatians. But thats life u can't control everything, there a lot of ***kedtop ppl out there. I'm not saying serbs didnt do anything wrong, its just u cant blame a whole nation for some idiots. Its just sad to see ppl who are stubborn and only think one way "Yes, serbs are the aggresor and everybody else are the victims.''

[boris4c]

No Serbia isn't responsible. Bozo the clown and his army is. :lol:
I don't know :)

All I know is that the court ruled it that way. Maybe Bozo really is the responsible for this? But, can we prove that his army is responsible too?

[Saraj Fanático]

Everybody knows this was a mediatic war won by the Muslims. I can find you a multitude of videos of Muslims killing Serbs. I can find you the video where the Muslims get "killed" and come to life back again 1 minute later :lol:. Btw, that video was the main argument to prove Srebrenica (It is with the boy with the blue/green coat, everybody knows this video). He gets "shot" many times by the "Scorpions" in the back and falls. This is the end of the video = Serbs killed Muslim civilians. But, what we don't see is the continuation of the video, which shows the same people get up, and have their hands untied by the "Scorpions" who are Bosniaks in Scorpion uniforms. They wash the ketchup off their clothes. It is also very funny when we see "muslims" on CNN wearing crosses, but the people are so blind they don't even think about this. We can't blame the Westerners for their ignorance, they were blinded by American/Bosniak propaganda messages and mediatic lies. Yes, some of these things did happen, but none of the crimes on Serbs were portrayed.

LLLLLLLOOOLLLLLLLLLL! THIS....IS.....ALL......VERY.....FUNNY!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Okay so can I get a link to this video where the kid gets up and the Scorpions reveal that they are Bosnian Soldiers? I really would like to see it.

His mother saw him get shot. The kid is missing today. So is the other man who had to carry the bodies to the field just before he was shot dead also. How the hell can you say that? The child is dead and here you are saying they used Ketchup for Blood and somehow the clear vision of seeing bullets hit his body are faked. lol.

I never said that there were no crimes committed on Serbs. It is a war. Bomb shells drop and bullets fly. People get hit on both sides. I am just saying that a huge majority of the massacres was against Bosniaks and there is clear evidence of that. Srebrenica happened. It was done by Terrorists loyal to Radovan Karina. There is also more tapes and thousands of bodies have been found. Muslim by DNA. So who is responsible for the 8,000 dead please. If Serbs hadn't had nothing to do with it in your case. lol. Oh let me guess.... BiH Army? lol! :lol:


Very funny was the reporting on some Canadian soldier who was cleaning mines in Bosnia and died. This was made by a Canadian channel. They tried to show the Serbs as well and someone who understands the language clearly hears the women saying how the Muslims massacred their family members. What happens is that the translator is a Bosniak, who refuses to translate that and instead we hear "They" and we hear the women talking while the public doesn't know who this woman is. "They massacred our family members" Once again the blame goes on the Serbs.

:lol: :lol: Okay so you believe a woman saying 'The Muslims massacred my family'. But you don't believe a videotape that shows killings happening first hand. You don't believe in the images of Sarajevo being struck? Its justr funny how you look at things. Very interesting. Doesn't surprise me but its indeed quite interesting how you believe a woman stating her claim while you somehow tell me a story about how the entire war was stages and its all 1 big conspiracy. Whatever image I can show to you now you will say the same thing 'Those must by Bosnians dressed up as Serb soldiers'. You have absolutely no proof of what your saying. At least I am not denying that some Serbs were also killed and butchered during the war.



Awful what the world has done. One day, everything will come back to normal. You can only dream that Serbia will continue falling into pieces like Vojvodina and Sandzak.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ME AND YOU! I don't dream of Serbia at all falling to bits. I don't care about Serbia. My mind needs more space to think about other things. Serbia is not in my interest because they aren't my country. See we Bosniak's do not go over to Serbia and try claiming some land and create BS out of it. I have my BiH and Serbs have their Serbia. But when you try to act up and do some shit that will affect my nation. They its go time.

Don't be blinded by everything you hear/see. Bosnia will fall into pieces well before Serbia.

Hoce Hoce....ali u Kurcu. :lol: I bet you were saying that before Montenegro split. Again, I don't give a flying hell about Serbia. They aren't in my interest.


Please don't tell me the Croats in Bosnia don't wanna join Croatia :lol: I have been there and you can see unofficial signs of "Welcome to Croatia" everywhere. My teacher has been to Medjugorje and she almost made a bet with me that it was in Croatia. I told her "no its in Bosnia" but she said "no everybody told me this was Croatia, I was in Split in Croatia and went to Medjugorje, I didn't change countries". She even used "kunas" to pay her coffee. Now, Serbs cannot be divided by an imaginary air line called a "border". Is the Serb living in Bijeljina any different from the one living 5km away in Serbia? Surely not. We are one people.

And when did I tell you that people in Herzegovina don't want to be a part of Croatia? I said that Croatia has no interest in them. lol why do they need Herzegovina? Croatia is a beautiful and stable country as it is. If Herzegovina were to fall under attack tomorrow Croatia wouldn't even raise a finger.

Lol people in Herzegovina can keep up their imagination of being in Croatia but the fact is that they are in BiH. Use Kunas and see flags and banners. But at the end they see them selfs again in the same spot. BIH! :lol:

But thankfully those Wishful Croats in Herzegovina who wish this are finally waking up and moving to Croatia. Good luck! I hope you enjoyed youre stay! The ones that stay can keep raising the Croat flags all they want. See how long they will come. They will again be working and doing everything under our law. :lol: :)

Oh and ask your teacher what flag did she see when crossing the Border to BiH. Will ya? :D

Be 1 people. Love Serbia. However don't try to bring problems to us. But no siki riki. There won't be no such things as time passes and Bosnians....True Bosnians return home. You are all invited to live with us. However there is no other option if your in BiH.

There is the hockey world cup in Zagreb right now for Division II Group A and the Serbian team got attacked today by the Croats in the street. They were just walking but go recognized. This would never happen in Belgrade, this proves of Serbian tolerance. Those things just don't happen. The Ottoman Empire flag is still waving on the Bajrakli Mosque in Belgrade and nobody is even thinking about taking it down or anything while a guy on Croatian TV has a tie similar to a Serbian flag and he gets life-threatening messages (???).

Yeah we all saw the amount of tolerance they gave us when our national team played Serbia in Belgrade. Chants of 'Noz, Zica, Srebrenica'. Yes our guys did similar things when Serbia came to Sarajevo but please don't make an comment saying how more tolerant Serbs are. Since they aren't any more tolerant then us or Croats. We all have our bad apples.

Also, if you ever been in Sarajevo you would know that there are many Churches around with not a single person is saying anything. Actually I think some of the Churches bring the city streets of some parts of the city to life. I am not going to hate all people and religion because of the idiotic ideas of one old sad little man known as Radovan Karina.

[Bosnian Unit]

Ok boris.............

Who did this in Srebrenica ?

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/07/12/mn_srebrenica105.jpg

http://www.masnet.org/cms_article_files/article_765/pic2.jpg

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,407146,00.jpg

http://www.gva.be/dossiers/-b/balkan/img/srebrenica.jpg


http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2006-03/22364653.jpg

So what do you think boris, did Bosniaks did all this to themselfs of aliens ?
Must be one of those two, since Serbs didnt right ?


Well i posted this one earlier...............


http://img.search.com/thumb/7/7f/Srebrenica6.jpg/350px-Srebrenica6.jpg
Screenshot from recently released video footage showing a Serb Orthodox priest blessing the paramilitary soldiers on June 25, 1995 just a few days before the soldiers were to be transferred to the Srebrenica area




Bigpappys_gun,

QUOTE:Why would serbs film such things and show it to world how bad they are ?

They do that for morality of their soldiers.How this picture leak, it was nobady but them who was filming this priest blessing soldiers just before they are about to commit genocide.

For example just like Arkan Raznatovic (war criminall) Tigers were taking picture in one of Bijeljina mosques......Ask boris about three fingers he will explain that better !

http://photoarts.com/haviv/bosnia/image/muslimflag.jpeg

Again Arkan Tigers in Bijeljina........even tough these CIVILIANS ARE DEAD, one of BRAVE SERBIAN SOLDIERS IS KICKING HIM/HER in the head.
http://photoarts.com/haviv/bosnia/image/dying.jpeg
This photograph was taken by American or British reporter who later they were seeking to kill. This was at the begining of war........picture went around the world.

[Bigpappys_gun]

I belive u that those picture might be true, those guys are idiots, but is genocide a correct term to use here. Serbian leaders cannot control every serbian. This is an act of Terrorism which the nation has nothing to do with it.

[Bosnian Unit]

I belive u that those picture might be true, those guys are idiots, but is genocide a correct term to use here. Serbian leaders cannot control every serbian. This is an act of Terrorism which the nation has nothing to do with it.

Well is Genocide correct term to use here, read the title of this topic.

When you kill 8.000 people of town whos population is 20.000+........i mean come on.

And when you have concentration camps like Nazi Germany did..........

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/karadzic/art/map.gif

The location of the dozens of Bosnia Serb concentration camps coincided with the shape of the country they wanted to form. For this, they needed to clear the territories of all traces of Muslim or Croat enemies in "their" land.

As a general rule their strategy, as set out in the RAM Plan and other documents, was to construct a "Greater Serbia" made up of land bordering Serbia on the east, bordering the Serbian-occupied Krajina (originally Croatia) on the west, and with a land bridge joining the two across the north. The most ferocious Serb fighting and repression was centered in this northern - and to the Serbs - most vulnerable area. (A notable example: Brcko, where Bosnia Serbs murdered 3,000 military age Muslim men in 1992.)


Source for number of camps in each locale: UN commission of Experts, Final Report and Annexes, December 1994.


And people in those camps like............

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1630000/images/_1634478_prisonersitn300.jpg

[Centarfor9]

Manjača camp
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/aa/Manjaca_camp.gif

Manjača camp (pronounced:Mañacha) was a detention camp (also referred to as prison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison) and concentration camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp)) on mountain Manjača (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manja%C4%8Da) near the city of Banja Luka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banja_Luka) in northern Bosnia and Herzegovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina) during the Croatian War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War) and Bosnian War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War) from 1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991) to 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995). The camp was founded by the Yugoslav People's Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JNA) (JNA) and authorities of Republika Srpska (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republika_Srpska) (RS) and was used to collect and confine thousands of civilians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian) of Croat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croat) and Bosniak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniak) nationalities.
The camp was shut down under international pressure in late 1992 but was reopened in October 1995. At that time it was estimated that total of between 4,500 and 6,000 non-Serbs primarily from Sanski Most (http://en.wikipe