nothing big about brasil

[Severus]

forza canada !!! those jokers, washington, leo, fabio etc ... who are these guys ??? they couldn't even score a goal vs canada ... a country where futbol ranks 5th in popularity.

brasil should be ashamed of themselves !

vive le canada !!!

[ROM2]

It's not always possible to beat the weaker teams!

[Severus]

yes but with all that fire power ? atleast 1 goal no ? brasil aren't as deep as they used to be anymore thats the reality of it.

[Severus]

correction, i'd say futbol ranks about 7th in canada behind golf, lacrosse, baseball, football, basketball and last but not least ... hockey.

[ROM2]

On the contrary, there's great depth in Brazillian football - just because they didn't score against weaker opposition doesn't sound the death nell of samba soccer. If they were'nt creating chances then I'd worry but it's about poor finishing. Anyway no team can rule forever, success comes in cycles right now it's Frances time soon it' ll be somebody elses maybe Argentina - besides availability consisdered, Brazil may be able to field 3 players in the same team that has won world player of the year - Romario, Ronaldo, Rivaldo - nah, Brazillian soccer is just fine!

[Yacoob]

No, the Brazilian football is in deep trouble, the players may be doing good with their respective teams, but they failed to ring any bells with the national team. It's the national team which is very important, the players must start playing seriously instead of this crap performance. Frankly, I don't think we'll see any solution to the ongoing troubles, I won't be surprised if Brazil failed to qualify for the WC, and if that happened it will be sock that may help Brazil return to their former great style.

[FANTA]

uruguay 1 - 0 brazil :boo:

they need R9

[Garrincha]

Hey, the team may not be shining, but the road to the WC looks clearer now. Yesterday Brazil beat Paraguay 2 x 0, and a tactical design is becoming clear. Rivaldo apparently will be playing in attack for good, opening a space in midfield, which will be filled by either Juninho, Leonardo or Alex (Denilson with an outside chance, IMHO).

We may be collecting some unflattering results, due to the Brazilian soccer federation's policy of playing against weak, mickey-mouse teams (like Canada or Panama, Honduras was on the Copa America, and even made it through to the finals). But it's beginning to look like we will qualify, after all. Too bad for everyone who was dreaming of a WC without Brazil, huh?

It's not going to be easy for anybody, fellas. Not for Brazil, and not for Brazil's opponents.

Dont'cha love soccer?:D

[Severus]

Originally posted by Garrincha
Too bad for everyone who was dreaming of a WC without Brazil, huh?

not really. winning the WC wouldn't be the same if one didn't route brasil in the process so i'm content. besides, this shouldn't even be a big deal at all ... a WC appearance for brasil is a birthright.

[Garrincha]

You know what strikes me as funny? Holland and England are struggling in the Qualifiers, but there isn't nearly as much noise around their problems. I mean, Holland will have to fight bitterly to get in the play-offs alone, or do they still have a chance of winning the group? Gotta find me the latest tables, all I remember is a lotta people are in danger of bein' out of the WC.

But for some reason everyone makes a big deal about Brazil's problems. Nothing like a great reputation to make expectations high, huh?;)

[FANTA]

http://www.theworldgame.com.au/content/tables/default.asp?CMPID=28&PID=33

btw, i don't think brazil has declined much ... its just that the rest of the world is catching up to them, and about time.

[Severus]

err ... england will probably make it as one of the best 2nd place teams but holland better watch themselves. they trail portugal by 1 and ireland by 4 with one game in hand on them. holland play ireland rep. on the 1st of september also so we'll pretty much know where they stand then. they can still win the group but i bet they'll make it as the best runner up with ireland not even making it.

hey, remember qualifications for france98 ? we had to play russia in a playoff amidst enough scrutiny too. probably just as much as brasil experienced this year. every world power goes through it but there's really never a need to worry if you're a supporter of italia, brasil, argentina and germany. we always come through.

[Garrincha]

Yeah. I hope all the big boys make it, Holland included. Portugal has my sympathy too, and I'll keep my fingers crossed, hoping they don't get mugged again (in the qualifiers for '98, they were robbed blind at their home turf, because it was either them or the Germans). :burglar:

A Cup is so much better when everyone's aboard, isn't it? It was a shame when England and France were out of '94. Even the heartwarming punching bags (I'm not naming teams here to avoid getting people outraged), those teams that are pummeled on a regular basis on every WC. It all gets very emotional, y'know?:D

Hey, I'll raise a toast to the WC. May all the big boys be there, may the best win, hope we all get some good laughs.

And I hope THIS TIME Brazil meets Germany. This is one match the Cups have never seen, and It should be good. :ronaldo:

[OAnimal]

Now, there is no need to worry after the last matches, Brazil will qualify for WC. They have beaten Paraguay and its both contenders for the 4th place, Uruguay and Columbia both lost. So Brazil is now +3 from Uruguay and +5 from Columbia and -1 from Ecuador, who has very tough schedule till the end, so I think that Brazil's qualification to the WC is beyond doubt.

It is the truth though, that they don't play well - but if I am not mistaken, all teams lead by Luis Felipe Scolari, the current Brazil national team coach, played ugly but efficient football.

[Garrincha]

That is only half true. Scolari has, indeed, been frequently successful with teams based on strenght rather than flair. But we would need to look on his history to understand his style.

He first was noticed nationwide when he won the Brazilian Cup with small southern club Criciuma. Now, this is sort of like Pisa winning the Italian Cup. Get te picture? Scolari managed to build a competitive squad, based on teamwork and hard work.

Eventually he went to Gremio, a big club, where he won another Brazilan Cup, one Brazilian championship and the Libertadores Cup (losing the World Club Cup to Van Gaal's Ajax), among other titles. During his time at Gremio, was born a rivalry with coach Wanderley Luxemburgo (Brazil's former coach), who was then at Palmeiras, which was regularly whipped by Scolari's team. This was a strenght-based squad, and some of its players were Jardel, Arce (from Paraguay)and Emerson (now at Roma).

He eventually was offered the Palmeiras position - the club was sponsored by Parmalat at the time, and invested heavily. Scolari had for the first time a fat budget for player purchases, and built a strong team, with Arce, Junior Baiano, Junior (at Parma now), Cesar Sampaio, Zinho, Alex, Euller and Oseas (picture a black Hakan Sukur with dreadlocks).

But Palmeiras is a club with a strong tradition of pacey, flair-based soccer - therefore nicknamed "the Academy". And the supporters demanded quality football, they weren't satisfied with an "efficient" squad with such a large budget (for Brazilian standards, anyway). So Scolari had to play a lighter style, and his team eventually managed to deliver some pleasant performances. He always demands tactical collaboration of all eleven, and in Brazil that's not as usual as one would think.;) In Palmeiras he won his third Brazilian Cup, and another Libertadores (lost to Manchester this time in Tokyo).

This guy is a good, competent coach. His problem is, he's hot-headed. He once felt insulted by a reporter's question and punched the guy's lights out. Many journalists dislike him deeply.

And I think the distinction between "ugly" and "pretty" soccer is sort of unclear. For me, a technical display of flair and control is gibberish if it doesn't help the team; therefore, it must be "efficient" BEFORE it's "beautiful", otherwise it's just circus acrobatics. OMHO.:dontcare:

[OAnimal]

The line between "beatiful" and "ugly" football is unclear, that's the truth. I usually define football as beatiful, if the team often brings its defenders to the opponents half - which usually results in greater amount of ball possesion, but also leaves a lot of space for eventual opponent's counterattack. If you remember Argentina in WC 1990 - now that was a tipical example of ugly football. Not to mention the way Italy usually plays.

[Garrincha]

Well, one might say Italian-style soccer is a good definition for "ugly" soccer - but some of Italy's defensive moves look quite lovely for me, actually, as a perfect clean tackle can be as beautiful as a perfect pass or dribble. I don't think purely offensive play, as you describe it - "if the team often brings its defenders to the opponents half (...) which usually results in greater amount of ball possesion, but also leaves a lot of space for eventual opponent's counterattack" - is necessarily beautiful either.

Carlos Alberto Parreira, the coach who won WC '94 for Brazil, frequently says the recipe for great soccer is BALANCE. A team that has a solid defense, a fluid midfield, and a dangerous offense, probably will be playing top-quality soccer.

And that doesn't mean a solid defensive line, but a solid defensive PERFORMANCE by all eleven. The offense begins at the back, as well; true balance is when most of your players defend when the team loses the ball, and most of the team attacks when in possession. That, IMHO, is the path for beauty in soccer.

[OAnimal]

OK, the definition of beauty is very relative, no question about that. For what you described, I would use the word efficient football. Ofensive football is beatiful for me, the way brazilian teams bring forward their backs (Roberto Carlos and Cafu, for example) comes very close to perfection for me.

Again, here we might disagree because of relativness of the word beautiful, since for me, there is no way a tackle can match the beauty of the pass (in the Djalminha way) into empty space.

I respect Carlos Alberto Parreira very much for the results he achieved, but wasn't he critisised in Brazil during the WC94 very much because of the way Brazilian team played??

[OAnimal]

BTW, I heard that most brazilian people think that the best brazilian national team of all times was the one with Zico, Eder, Socrates, Falcao, Junior, etc. that played in WC 1982 (and some of these players also in WC 1986). Is that the truth? If so, than I think that most of brazilian people would agree with my definition of beautiful football. The first time I saw Brazil play football was in WC 1982 and from that time for me, Brazil is means beauty, creativity, flair, ofensive style, quality and everything that is worth seeing in a football match.

[Garrincha]

That squad is, in fact, regarded as one of the finest Brazil ever assembled. I personally think the 1958-62 squad was THE best ever assembled - and I don't mean only by Brazil.

That squad had a great goalie, Gilmar, who played with Pelé at Santos; A superb defensive line, with Djalma Santos, Bellini (both great defenders) and Nilton Santos, considered to this day as the best left-back of all time, the man who INVENTED the wingback and the offensive possibilities of a defender. The mid had Didi, one of the greatest playmakers of all time (and MVP of the '58 Cup), assisted by workhorses Zito and Zagallo. Didi also played for Real madrid. The attack had Garrincha and Pelé, aided by prolific striker Vavá. A superb team, which demolished all opposition and won two cups.

Then we have the 1970 team, which I consider second best simply beacuse they had Pelé, but not Garrincha. But they had Carlos Alberto Torres (explosive right-back), Piazza, Gerson (the Golden Leftie), Rivelino (the Atomic Hoof), Tostão, Jairzinho (the Hurricane, the only player to score in ALL matches of a Cup), and Pelé of course. This was a juggernaut, but I rate the '58 squad higher.

And I suppose the '82 team would be third best, talented as they were. It's a shame they didn't win, isn't it? But of course, our Italian friends might disagree...:annoyed:

I might add that my club, BOTAFOGO (you can see the club shield by my name), was the backbone of the 58-62-70 teams. Nilton Santos, Didi, Zagallo, Garrincha, Jairzinho, Gerson, Amarildo (who played in '62), all were Botafogo players. Plus quite a few reserves in both teams. Nice, huh?:D

[OAnimal]

Thanks for your detailed explanation. I am too young to be able to see teams from 58, 62 and 70, although I read a lot about these magnificient teams. I watched the replay of Brazil - Italy in the WC 1970 finals a few years ago, but that's not the same, because football has evolved so much in 30 years. The first time I saw world cup it was in 1982 and that brazilian team is the best I ever saw (by my opinion). No matter if they lost against Italy, Italy just had much more luck than they deserved in that game.

[Coringao]

Garincham,

You sound like a very sensible soccer fan. I agree with your assesment of the "jogo bonito".

I thought that Parreira's Brasil was just a temporary system. It is now obvious with most teams so focused on defense, mainly Europeans, that the "jogo bonito" will be hard to come by.

Having said that, with a solid defensive line & midfield, it will be possible to play jogo bonito!!!

Brasil has been lacking in the defenders lately.

I guess most kids growing up these days don't see a defender as very "glamorous" so not many takers for that position.

[Garrincha]

Actually I think Parreira was misunderstood. His system in '94 was not as defensive as people think, IMHO.

His system was the 4-4-2. But there are many ways to organize eleven men on the pitch, even within the same system. Parreira's Brazil involved building a tight marking "wall" - only his wasn't around Brazil's defense, but rather around the opposition's defense! How so, you ask?

His midfield was the key: he used Dunga and Mauro Silva, the two "destroyers", to cover for defense (two hard-working, very solid defensive mids); and Rai (later Mazinho) and Zinho had the job of keeping ther ball around the opposition's area. Zinho was harshly criticized back then, being nicknamed "the wax machine" for his perpetual "spinning" when with the ball, instead of dribbling through defenders and attacking at all times. Mazinho had a similar job, but he didn't have Zinho's absolute control of the ball (Zinho may not do much with it, but it's tough as nails to get the ball off him), so he often alternated positions with talented right-back Jorginho, providing for an interesting option on the right side of the pitch. Their job was to KEEP the ball up front, even if nothing was DONE with it. Just keep it in the offense.

The point of the system was: Brazil always faced very closed defenses (and still does), but our offensive style always made us easy prey for other's counterattacks. Parreira developed a system which, first, covered for that period's lack of quality playmakers; second, it made sure the ball rarely left the vicinity of the opposition's defense. His system was demolished by the media, who always wants a show, but it was very efficient. Mainly because of Bebeto and Romario, who were at top form, devastating defenses and making up for that squad's attacking limitations.

It worked like a charm, until we met the world's greatest defensive experts - the Italians. Baresi performed like the genius he was, even below top fitness. He completely closed Romario down, and led the Azzurri to the penalty shootout. Italy didn't actually have many chances of scoring, but the defensive solidity displayed by both teams that day must be praised. Pretty? Not really, no. But effective.

The "defensive belt around the opposition" idea was later adapted by Fabio Capello in Real Madrid (with better playmakers), but it's not really a revolution: It's just smart tactics.

[Coringao]

True,

That' s why I say Brazil with a better defense line, would not have to commit 2 midfielders to defensive duties. Maybe 1, thereby freeing the attack.

I think that is what Scolari is trying to accomplish. It requires a lot of discipline & a lot of training together. The latter is a real shortcomming to the team right now.

I believe that Mauro Silva will start next game. I would like to see him & Vampeta in the midfield, together with 2 Juninho's & Alex

Rivaldo & Edilson(or Romario when recovered.)

Left back right back should be Roberto Carlos & Cafu.
central defence, Lucio, Juan, Roque.