Non-Liverpool debates [Archive] - Soccer Fans Network Forums

soccer fanatic

01-28-2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by Drummer
Not as bad as smug fans, with absolutely no reason to be!!! (arsenal in europe).

Having smug fans only proof that they are class right now.
Every team has smug fans from time too time, even Liverpool.
Although probably not right now. :smoking:

You can`t hold having smug fans against the real fans.

Are we jealous because we are actually wrong in that you believe that Arsenal are in fact, as they say, a powerful force in europe, more feared then United.
Or, just because we are right and trying to bring them down to earth with a few home truths.

Arsenal isn`t the biggest force in Europe. Never said that. They definetly have a chance of winning the CL.

More than Liverpool. :D:D:D:D

Whats annoying isnt that Arsenal fans go on about winning the league, but the fact that because of winning the league, this automatically makes them better then any english team in europe.

Winning the EPL makes you the best team in England.
Don`t generalise all Arsenal fans, that is a sad thing too do.
They aren`t less in Europe than Man Utd this year.

Any smug fan is annoying. But one whos sole arguement doesnt even apply to a discussion is embarrassing, ie that winning the league makes a team better in europe.

Getting results in Europe doesn`t depend on how you do in the EPL. It is about a combination of having the right players, a bit of luck and a good draw.

Although winning the EPL does give you confidence and experience too handle pressure. Those two things won`t hurt you in England either. Think this season Arsenal proved they are good in Europe.

Ofcourse they haven`t played Ajax yet. :cool:

Drummer

01-28-2003, 06:46 PM

In case you dnt know, Im a united fan and nobody in the EPL is a more exciting team then united. So dont quote me and respond with things against liverpool as I dont care what sort of football liverpool play.
Newcastle were the most exciting team in the league when kevin keegan was their manager. United are a more enticing team to watch. They may beat Arsenal and liverpool but you are more likely to see surprises against them. they beat newcastle 5-3 in arguably the best game of the season. If arsenal get to the quarter finals, you wont see that flowing football because they wont be playing against Charlton, fulham or west ham.
Arsenal isn`t the biggest force in Europe. Never said that. They definetly have a chance of winning the CL.
No but doyou not understand that this is what the whole arguement is about. The fact that because Arsenal won the league, their fans think that they are the best english team in europe, which you have already agreed is not true!!!
More than Liverpool.
As I said. Im a united fan so I have more reason to believe that united will go further then Arsenal and Ajax!!Where were arsenal and Ajax when united and liverpool were playing in the quarter finals of the CL last year?:D :D :D
By the way. Is mido as good a player as i have heard about???

They aren`t less in Europe than Man Utd this year.
How do you work that one out?
United were rubbish in the EPL last year yet they got to the semis of the CL. This year united look much better and more consistant. Arsenal on the other hand dont look any more impressive then they did last season. If anything they have gone down. They didnt lose as many games all season in the EPL lastt year as they have this year!! Ooooh, they beat Roma!! So what, I would expect all to beat them. How Valencia only drew with them is a mystery.
Having smug fans only proof that they are class right now.
Not true. Spanish fans are always smug when spain play in the world cup, yet they never do anything!! Likewise italian fans are always smug, yet they havent won anything in the world cup since 82'. But they are always there or thereabouts in the latter stages. Arsenal fans have no reason to be smug about arsenals hopes in the CL as they are not always there or therabouts in the tournament.
Perhaps they have a right to be smug about being champions of the league, again though, they have no reason to be as confident as united are , in europe. You will see in the quarters, what arsenal are really made of!!;)
Getting results in Europe doesn`t depend on how you do in the EPL. It is about a combination of having the right players, a bit of luck and a good draw.
Thats the point that we have been making to the aresnal fans. they think that because arsenal won the league, means that straight away this makes arsenal englands best chance representitive in europe. which as we know isnt the case. Why do you argue when you are in fact in agreement with what we are saying???

Drummer

01-28-2003, 06:47 PM

nobody in the EPL is a more exciting team then united.
Except maybe newcastle!!;)

soccer fanatic

01-28-2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Drummer
In case you dnt know, Im a united fan and nobody in the EPL is a more exciting team then united.

Talking about an arrogant supporter. :rolleyes:

So dont quote me and respond with things against liverpool as I dont care what sort of football liverpool play.

Well since I`m on a Liverpool forum here I thought I give some feedback too them, I know you aren`t a Liverpool fan.

If arsenal get to the quarter finals, you wont see that flowing football because they wont be playing against Charlton, fulham or west ham.

Common, I saw a lot of Arsenal live matches and found almost all of them entertaining, they play gorgeous, also against solid, good teams.

No but doyou not understand that this is what the whole arguement is about. The fact that because Arsenal won the league, their fans think that they are the best english team in europe, which you have already agreed is not true!!!

Their fans... ... their fans.
I`m a fan of Arsenal too and I don`t think so don`t generalise please.
And I didn`t agree it is not true, I said that Man Utd and Arsenal are on the same level and also mentioned they have a chance of ewinning the CL.
But so does Ajax ofcourse. :cool:

As I said. Im a united fan so I have more reason to believe that united will go further then Arsenal and Ajax!!

I have no problem with thsat, just don`t give me crap with generalising all Arsenal fans. Arsenal fans right know have every right too be proud, and so am I.
Man Utd is also in a good run BTW.

Where were arsenal and Ajax when united and liverpool were playing in the quarter finals of the CL last year?:D :D :D
By the way. Is mido as good a player as i have heard about???

That is a stupid point. First of all Ajax and Liverpool and Man Utd are in totally different leagues, I mean that strictly literally. We re in a difficult stage than Man Utd. We can`t just go and buy who we want. Arsenal is good now and so I see no reason too be less proud because before this period they were less. Respect for old glory but I live in the here and now.

Besides every team can have a bad spell, where was Man Utd in the early seventees, when Ajax had an annual tradition of winning the CL? got my point?

And Mido isn`t that good.

How do you work that one out?
United were rubbish in the EPL last year yet they got to the semis of the CL. This year united look much better and more consistant. Arsenal on the other hand dont look any more impressive then they did last season.
[/QUOTE][/B]

Because they were even more invincible last year. Level of Arsenal is still amazing, how can you deny that? Can`t you give credit too who deserve it?

Arsenal still is very good and Man Utd probably will compete with them for the championship with maybe as dark horses Newcastle.

If anything they have gone down. They didnt lose as many games all season in the EPL lastt year as they have this year!! Ooooh, they beat Roma!! So what, I would expect all to beat them. How Valencia only drew with them is a mystery.

How much matches of Arsenal did you see?

Not true. Spanish fans are always smug when spain play in the world cup, yet they never do anything!! Likewise italian fans are always smug, yet they havent won anything in the world cup since 82'. But they are always there or thereabouts in the latter stages.

Most people are smug in their NT love.

Arsenal fans have no reason to be smug about arsenals hopes in the CL as they are not always there or therabouts in the tournament.

They have a reason, cause they have a great squad which can match every other squad. Why can`t we be hopefull for a good campaign in CL and say that out loud?

Perhaps they have a right to be smug about being champions of the league, again though, they have no reason to be as confident as united are , in europe. You will see in the quarters, what arsenal are really made of!!;)

I`m actually hoping Ajax will do that, my first and still by far biggest love. :)
And they have every reason too be as confident as Man U is. They have a good squad and this year are doing well in Europe. THey can beat anybody and I think you are only saying these things too either annoy me, which isn`t working:), or because you feel scared of the threat Arsenal is.

Thats the point that we have been making to the aresnal fans. they think that because arsenal won the league, means that straight away this makes arsenal englands best chance representitive in europe. which as we know isnt the case. Why do you argue when you are in fact in agreement with what we are saying???

Because I don`t agree. I think you are not fair and are predujice against your biggest rival. I have the same thing against Feyenoord. You really make a jealous impression.

If Man U couldn`t win it, would you be happy if Arsenal did?

Drummer

01-28-2003, 11:31 PM

If Man U couldn`t win it, would you be happy if Arsenal did?
Actually I wouldnt mind if arsenal won the trophy as I enjoy watching english teams in europe.
Perhaps we have misunderstood.
I was wrong to generalise Aresnal fans, when its mainly JD and some other guy, that seem to be convinced that Im saying that arsenal are not the best team in the england premer league.
All I have been trying to say is that on reocrd in europe I felt that I would think that united have a better chance in the competition. The reason that I brought this up was in a discussion about arsenal being the best team in england period (bets english team in europe also). I was only making the point that winning the EPL doesnt automatically make a team a good euro side.
Thats all.
Common, I saw a lot of Arsenal live matches and found almost all of them entertaining, they play gorgeous, also against solid, good teams.
In defence, you are going to say that. I never said that arsenal arent exciting, but I think that uniteds team is just more exciting with great width in giggs and Beckham and the full- backs coming forward and Ole and ruud up front!! Its a matter of opinion, but Im sure that you wouldnt argue that Newcastle are in fact the most enertaining team to watch, win or lose!!
We re in a difficult stage than Man Utd.
I dont know about that. Juventus are better then Roma, Valencia are only just better then Deport and Ajax dont appear to be that good, on the few performences I have seen them, not to say that they are.
How much matches of Arsenal did you see?
Actually I see alot of arsenal games, and I see no imporovement in them form lat year, perhaps in europe but not in the league. They look more confient this year, but this is why I think united can take advatnatge of their security. In some games I think that arsenal looked too sure of themselves and during their bad spell they looked like a team that had been nelieving the hype about this great gunners that were invincible. I think that United are a better team for last years defeat, they play with more passion, which even if they end up trophieless, means more to me then the pussy footing crap football they played last yer. Also even not yet at his best, Veron is playing well and its like having a new player!!
And they have every reason too be as confident as Man U is. They have a good squad and this year are doing well in Europe. THey can beat anybody and I think you are only saying these things too either annoy me, which isn`t working, or because you feel scared of the threat Arsenal is.
Actually I thought that arsenal and Liverpool had much better squads then United, but United are certainly proving to have a great squad, during injuries they prevailed and they are still in 4 competitions in february.

soccer fanatic

01-28-2003, 11:35 PM

We re in a difficult stage than Man Utd.

Difficult was wrong, should have been different. :D:D:D
Seriously.

Rest I will do tomorrow, its kinda late.

Drummer

01-28-2003, 11:45 PM

Sleep well!!:D

The Rule

01-29-2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic
Like real football fanatics know, it is not prizes that makes a team great.

great teams are measured by their success,it's that simple.

soccer fanatic

01-29-2003, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by The Rule
great teams are measured by their success,it's that simple.

Great teams are measured by dominant play and entertaining football, results are important, but not the most important.

Prizes makes a team succesfull, not great.

The Rule

01-29-2003, 02:36 PM

so results aren't as important as how you play??yes very intelligent

great teams are measured by success

Drummer

01-29-2003, 02:55 PM

so results aren't as important as how you play??yes very intelligent
Your right rule. Just ask newcastle fans when Keegan was manager. they were great to watch, but Im sure newcastle fans would of accepted crap performances for a trophy.
great teams are measured by success
Yes, not on how much they entertain you!!!
The arsenal team of 91 werent exactly the most exciting, were they? I believe thats where the phrase came from, "boring, boring Arsenal".

Drummer

01-29-2003, 02:58 PM

Like real football fanatics know, it is not prizes that makes a team great.
Yes but not their own team. Neutral fans loved watching Newcastle play with keegan and now with robson. Not because they are the best team in the league but because they are the most excting.
If united were winning games 4-3 and losing 3-2 every couple of weeks and won nothing I wouldnt be happy, likewise if arsenal werent winning anything and playing the same way, you wouldnt be happy at all...

The Rule

01-29-2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Drummer
1.Your right rule. Just ask newcastle fans when Keegan was manager. they were great to watch, but Im sure newcastle fans would of accepted crap performances for a trophy.

2.Yes, not on how much they entertain you!!!
The arsenal team of 91 werent exactly the most exciting, were they? I believe thats where the phrase came from, "boring, boring Arsenal".

1.Exactly,look at West Ham,they are a good team to watch,they play good football,but i think their fans would prefer to see them play boring defensive football and grind out 1-0 wins.

2.We won 5 trophies in a year and that seasons highlights are soon to be released on video as a cure for insomnia

soccer fanatic

01-29-2003, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by The Rule
so results aren't as important as how you play??yes very intelligent

great teams are measured by success

You have too improve your reading skills.
Results are important, but doesn`t define a great team. I didn`t say results aren`t the an important thing, I think dominance and entertainingplay are more important, perhaps that is why I`m an Ajax fan.

soccer fanatic

01-29-2003, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by Drummer
Yes but not their own team. Neutral fans loved watching Newcastle play with keegan and now with robson. Not because they are the best team in the league but because they are the most excting.

Not true, Ajax missed out several times on prizes while playing gfreat and I rather had they won but ws at the same time proud of being an Ajax supporter and entertained the style we played.

Like I said also in the post you disagree with, results are important, but just not the most important thing.
Besides if you are a great team playing dominant football, it is impossible too not too get results, not saying you will win every competition but you will compete.

Look at the WC 74, when Holland lost in the final too Germany. It still hurts in some way for a lot of people, but the proudness of the way we played is far stronger.

If united were winning games 4-3 and losing 3-2 every couple of weeks and won nothing I wouldnt be happy, likewise if arsenal werent winning anything and playing the same way, you wouldnt be happy at all...

You can`t play dominant and attractive football without getting results. You can`t loose every game, impossible.

Drummer

01-29-2003, 05:43 PM

Look at the WC 74, when Holland lost in the final too Germany. It still hurts in some way for a lot of people, but the proudness of the way we played is far stronger.
I dont know how dutch people see it that way. So what you are saying is that its better to be a great loser then a boring winner? I would imagine that any dutch fan would of taken a world cup win, boring football or not, in that world cup. The fact is that they have no choice but to accept it. Its a great philosophy to take defeat so graciously, but winners win at all cost, many of uniteds wins and many league champions wins often involve winning the most boring of games, by grinding out results. Arsenal played great football last year against the average teams. Against United, Liverpool and Newcastle alike, they werent allowed to, but arsenal ground out results. Holland didnt know how to grind out results in 1974 and forgot to actually score in the final. They just popped the ball around fully confident of winning it, too cofident.
You can`t play dominant and attractive football without getting results. You can`t loose every game, impossible.
No my point was that if arsenal werent as successful as they are now, winning trophies and they were told tha they would win a league or a CL title if they played boring football, I would imagine that most of them would take it.
I think dominance and entertainingplay are more important, perhaps that is why I`m an Ajax fan.
Well i will say this. I want United to win at all cost. United always play attacking football, home or away, but if they had to play a few boring defensive games to win something, I wouldnt give a crap, once they didnt make a habit of it.
I agree with your principle about having exciting dominating play, but football is not as simple as that. The only team in the world that would get away with it is Madrid. Nobody else is good enough to get away with going full throttle, and dominate a game. They have the class and players that no other have. There defence isnt great but there philosophy isnt to stop the goals, but score more then the opposition!!!
Watch Arsenal against Valencia again and the free flowing football you speak of, is nowhere to be seen. Even with 10 men, valencia looked the more likely to score against the so called most exciting team in the premiership.
We scored 2 goals against Arsenal, 4 goals in 2 games against chelsea, 2 goals away to liverpool, 5 goals at home to newcastle and 3 goals at home to everton. Now these are the top 5 teams in the EPL beside the big 2. How many goals have arsebal scored against them, baring in mind that these teams are not as bad as the charltons and the fulhams. You see I learned a few seasons ago with united, when they used to thrash the crap teams and struggle to score against the big teams, that all united did better then the rest of the pack, was hammer the crap to average teams on a regular basis. These teams feared United like they do arsenal now. I know that Arsenal put 4 past chelsea in two games, 1 past liverpool, 1 past everton, 1 past newcastle and none by united. So in the end, yes arsenal are better attacking team then united against the smaller opposition, but against the big guns, united are far better!! Its quality, not quantity that matters most, wouldnt you agree!!!;)
So united put 16 in 6 against the other top 5 and arsenal scored 7 in 6. mmm They are so much better at scoring in the big games arent they?
Here are the teams that Arsenal the almighty attacking team, have put 3 or more goals past:
West Brom, Charlton, Leeds, Sunderland, tottenham, Villa, Chelsea and West ham.
God Im sure that the Brazil team of 70 are quacking in their boots!!!
Oh and united have a better scoring record in the CL also!!:D :D

soccer fanatic

01-29-2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by Drummer
I dont know how dutch people see it that way. So what you are saying is that its better to be a great loser then a boring winner?

Every fan wants his team too win. It is not black and white choice between winning boring and losing with greatness.
I`m saying that nowadays results are too important in comparison too the entertainment value. That is what you come too the stadiums for. Results are always important. But it is not so that if you play entertaining and creative you loose.

I would imagine that any dutch fan would of taken a world cup win, boring football or not, in that world cup. The fact is that they have no choice but to accept it.

Ofcourse we would have rather won it. But we can look back at it all with a lot of proudness and joy, a lot of people here and abroad still talk about that Dutch squad regarding too it as one of the best squads ever. I think that is more valuable than a trophy. Ofcourse I would have wanted we won it, but playing boring is no guarentee for succes either. So in the hunt for succes I say you should always play too win, attractive and entertaining.
I do know not every match can be played like that, but you should aim for it.

Its a great philosophy to take defeat so graciously, but winners win at all cost, many of uniteds wins and many league champions wins often involve winning the most boring of games, by grinding out results. Arsenal played great football last year against the average teams. Against United, Liverpool and Newcastle alike, they werent allowed to, but arsenal ground out results. Holland didnt know how to grind out results in 1974 and forgot to actually score in the final. They just popped the ball around fully confident of winning it, too cofident.

True but arrogance and dominating a match with amazing football isn`t the same. I saw the entire match (not live ofcourse) a few times and we were arrogant, perhaps because we played against the Germans in Germany. We wanted too humiliate them.

We did score though. :)

No my point was that if arsenal werent as successful as they are now, winning trophies and they were told tha they would win a league or a CL title if they played boring football, I would imagine that most of them would take it.

If they wouldn`t have won the EPL I wouldn`t have been less proud, I don`t think real Arsenal fans would complain too, wqhen I talk about Ajax with friends, I never talk about our trophy collection but about how we won them, with high level football. Memories are timeless, trophies too, but not as valuable as good play. But ofcourse results are always important, I think nowadays though a lot of people put way too much emphasis on winning trophees instead of treating fans on good football.

I would never take winning the league with boring football above ending 2nd or 3rd with good entertaining football.

Well i will say this. I want United to win at all cost. United always play attacking football, home or away, but if they had to play a few boring defensive games to win something, I wouldnt give a crap, once they didnt make a habit of it.

That is different. There are plenty of teams always playing too score one goal, then defend it, that is boring football, every team sometimes have too adjust their strategy, like Ajax for example did against Valencia. Because results are important, only less than most people value them.

Besides it is not a choice, winning trophies boring or not win anything with good football, it is not that black and white.
It is an insane comparison.

I agree with your principle about having exciting dominating play, but football is not as simple as that.

It once was. Too much at stake now, but still it is well possible too play great and get results, people think it isn`t possible but it is. Like Michels proved over and over again as a coach.

The only team in the world that would get away with it is Madrid. Nobody else is good enough to get away with going full throttle, and dominate a game.

I disagree. Arsenal can do it too. Entertaining football isn`t 100% possesion.

They have the class and players that no other have. There defence isnt great but there philosophy isnt to stop the goals, but score more then the opposition!!!

They stole that strategy from us. (Ajax)
And there are many clubs with great players. Real Madrid isn`t that good, look at the list of champions in Spain from the last ten year. They are not unbeatable. Don`t respect them too much.

Watch Arsenal against Valencia again and the free flowing football you speak of, is nowhere to be seen. Even with 10 men, valencia looked the more likely to score against the so called most exciting team in the premiership.

Valencia played flowing football in that match. :D:D:D
SAee it can be done. Besides even as a lesser team they showed that they are a great squad, the way they controll a ball, the way they see things, the creativity. Entertaining football isn`t just passing a ball around and earn many chances. A lot of small things make a team entertaining.

Like too take Man Utd as an example: The rushes of Giggs, the combo of talent and vision and hard work of Scholes, the effectivity of RVN, Beckhams shooting, Barthez clownesk behaviour. Many things. :)

We scored 2 goals against Arsenal, 4 goals in 2 games against chelsea, 2 goals away to liverpool, 5 goals at home to newcastle and 3 goals at home to everton. Now these are the top 5 teams in the EPL beside the big 2. How many goals have arsebal scored against them, baring in mind that these teams are not as bad as the charltons and the fulhams.

Good entertaining football isn`t the same as scoring a lot.

You see I learned a few seasons ago with united, when they used to thrash the crap teams and struggle to score against the big teams, that all united did better then the rest of the pack, was hammer the crap to average teams on a regular basis.

That is where you become champions, against the "minor" teams.

These teams feared United like they do arsenal now. I know that Arsenal put 4 past chelsea in two games, 1 past liverpool, 1 past everton, 1 past newcastle and none by united. So in the end, yes arsenal are better attacking team then united against the smaller opposition, but against the big guns, united are far better!! Its quality, not quantity that matters most, wouldnt you agree!!!;)

Exactly quality, not quanticy. So it is not about how much you score, but how you score those goals, right? ;)

Arsenal is a better attacking team, just look at for example how many chances Henry missed, but how the were created, pure magic. Arsenal plays like Ajax now, you know, when Ajax was good.

So united put 16 in 6 against the other top 5 and arsenal scored 7 in 6. mmm They are so much better at scoring in the big games arent they?

I never really live by stats, but I`m sure they are correct, though I said before it is not only based on how much goals. Arsenal can really outplay a team and create chances. Not just wait till RVN dives and he claims a penalty. :evil:

Here are the teams that Arsenal the almighty attacking team, have put 3 or more goals past:
West Brom, Charlton, Leeds, Sunderland, tottenham, Villa, Chelsea and West ham.

Stats from a desperate man. :D:D
Leeds, Chelsea and Tottenham aren`t that bad.
Still, it is not only about goals, it is the whole picture. On boxer day (2nd Christmas) three matches were shown after eachother on Dutch Tv, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd, all after eachother, difference was clear too see.

God Im sure that the Brazil team of 70 are quacking in their boots!!!

I don`t think those oldtimers could do much harm too this team. They wouldn`t even see Henry. :evil:

Oh and united have a better scoring record in the CL also!!:D :D

They had a better draw. ;)
I`m afraid though that Arsenal will come close too you after their double Ajax clash. :(

You really keep me busy. :D

Drummer

01-29-2003, 11:10 PM

Im glad thjat you took the time to go thru my post and I thank you for that;)
We did score though.
Yeh but Holland scoring just a penalty with the talent on that team is a travesty.
I disagree. Arsenal can do it too. Entertaining football isn`t 100% possesion.
What I was saying was that Madrid can do it and be a success at the top of europe. They can do it against the big teams. Arsenal and united find it more difficult to be as attacking minded when they are playing much better opposition.
Don`t respect them too much.
Oh no, dont get me wrong, madrid are beatable, I was just talking about their strategy. Its basically the same in every game. United and arsenal change their strategy in differant games, like against Liverpool (when they just defend) and Valencia. Arse cant always go gung ho, but they do have the ability to change. I dont think that Madrid are a team capable of playing defensive football in any game, whether it be defending a lead etc. They just keep going.
Valencia played flowing football in that match
Exactly, showing that when its put up to arsenal at a higher level, arsenal are just not capable of beating the best in europe, particularly when they come up against a good team...;)
Good entertaining football isn`t the same as scoring a lot.
I wasnt saying that but surely the best flowing football thats entertaining generally results in a goal for the exciting team? And should it not be true also that if one team scores more against top opposition that the quality of their play is superior?
That is where you become champions, against the "minor" teams.
That is a very true point and could be the reason that United fail this year. We lost to Leeds, City, Bolton, Blackburn and Middlesboro, all winable games!!!
Not just wait till RVN dives and he claims a penalty.
im sure Jeffers and pires would have something to say about that!!!;)
Hope this keeps your cocoa warm!!
;)

soccer fanatic

01-29-2003, 11:32 PM

I will reply tomorrow, it is getting late again. :D:D:D
For your next (possible) post: You sleep well too. :D

The Rule

01-30-2003, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic
You have too improve your reading skills.
Results are important, but doesn`t define a great team. I didn`t say results aren`t the an important thing, I think dominance and entertainingplay are more important, perhaps that is why I`m an Ajax fan.

THE RESULT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING

soccer fanatic

01-30-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by The Rule
THE RESULT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING

I said improve your reading skills, not your writing skills.

I saw Liverpool play, I can imagine you saying that.

soccer fanatic

01-30-2003, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by Drummer
Im glad thjat you took the time to go thru my post and I thank you for that;)

You are welcome, it was a good post.
I do have some points I disagree with. Surprise... surprise. :)

Yeh but Holland scoring just a penalty with the talent on that team is a travesty.

That happens, you can`t always score ten goals in a match. We got enough chances in that match though.
Good example of not always getting what you deserve is Arsenal last night agasinst Liverpol, Henry was really missing some incredible chances.

What I was saying was that Madrid can do it and be a success at the top of europe. They can do it against the big teams. Arsenal and united find it more difficult to be as attacking minded when they are playing much better opposition.

Again I refer too last nights match, I saw an attractive and good playing Arsenal side. I think Liverpool qualifies for a top team.
Madrid also play bad matches, also in Europe, like that double draw against a Greek side in CL. Madrid are hyped, because of that teams fear them, they are a very good side, but not necesarry too fear, especially for sides like Man Utd and Arsenal.
Must be selfesteem issue that those British teams have.

United and arsenal change their strategy in differant games, like against Liverpool (when they just defend) and Valencia.

That is where it always goes wrong for Arsenal, they adjust themselves too much, they don`t play like they can play best and loose, like also happened in the last minutes against Liverpool. They got out a striker and replaced him for a more defending player, if they would have let Bergkamp stand or change him with a fitter attacker, they would have won. Wenger knew it too BTW.

And don`t forget Valencia is difficult for everybody. They outplayed BArca not long a go on Noucamp. YOu must be good too do that, even in these times.

Arse cant always go gung ho, but they do have the ability to change. I dont think that Madrid are a team capable of playing defensive football in any game, whether it be defending a lead etc. They just keep going.

Because they have an attacking squad with not great defenders. Like Arsenal too. And even Man Utd a bit. You should play the system which best fits your players.

Exactly, showing that when its put up to arsenal at a higher level, arsenal are just not capable of beating the best in europe, particularly when they come up against a good team...;)

They trashed PSV. Not world class, but definetly good. Goes for Bor Dortmund too. I disagree, they can beat anybody if they play in their own system.

I wasnt saying that but surely the best flowing football thats entertaining generally results in a goal for the exciting team?

Than why everytime setting me for the choice what I prefer: Good football bad results or boring football and all the trophies?
Like hidden in this quote of you, it is not that simple. Playing attractive can be just as effective and trophee winning as playing boring. Because you can also play attractive and play for result. Like Arsenal and Real both do. And Man Utd these days too.

And should it not be true also that if one team scores more against top opposition that the quality of their play is superior?

You know that football is more complicated than that, more elements are involved, luck for example. The quality of their play isn`t superior, but their style of play is superior. But if the boring team wins still boring. :)

That is a very true point and could be the reason that United fail this year. We lost to Leeds, City, Bolton, Blackburn and Middlesboro, all winable games!!!

You were complaining we scored only against weak sides?
You can`t win them. ;)

im sure Jeffers and pires would have something to say about that!!!;)
Hope this keeps your cocoa warm!!
;)

Well, if they have something too say about it they know where too find me. ;)

Its warm allright. :)

The Rule

01-30-2003, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

1.You are welcome, it was a good post.
I do have some points I disagree with. Surprise... surprise. :)

2.That happens, you can`t always score ten goals in a match. We got enough chances in that match though.
Good example of not always getting what you deserve is Arsenal last night agasinst Liverpol, Henry was really missing some incredible chances.

3.Again I refer too last nights match, I saw an attractive and good playing Arsenal side. I think Liverpool qualifies for a top team.
Madrid also play bad matches, also in Europe, like that double draw against a Greek side in CL. Madrid are hyped, because of that teams fear them, they are a very good side, but not necesarry too fear, especially for sides like Man Utd and Arsenal.
Must be selfesteem issue that those British teams have.

4.That is where it always goes wrong for Arsenal, they adjust themselves too much, they don`t play like they can play best and loose, like also happened in the last minutes against Liverpool. They got out a striker and replaced him for a more defending player, if they would have let Bergkamp stand or change him with a fitter attacker, they would have won. Wenger knew it too BTW.

5.And don`t forget Valencia is difficult for everybody. They outplayed BArca not long a go on Noucamp. YOu must be good too do that, even in these times.

6.Because they have an attacking squad with not great defenders. Like Arsenal too. And even Man Utd a bit. You should play the system which best fits your players.

7.They trashed PSV. Not world class, but definetly good. Goes for Bor Dortmund too. I disagree, they can beat anybody if they play in their own system.

8.Than why everytime setting me for the choice what I prefer: Good football bad results or boring football and all the trophies?
Like hidden in this quote of you, it is not that simple. Playing attractive can be just as effective and trophee winning as playing boring. Because you can also play attractive and play for result. Like Arsenal and Real both do. And Man Utd these days too.

9.You know that football is more complicated than that, more elements are involved, luck for example. The quality of their play isn`t superior, but their style of play is superior. But if the boring team wins still boring. :)

10.You were complaining we scored only against weak sides?
You can`t win them. ;)

11.Well, if they have something too say about it they know where too find me. ;)

12.Its warm allright. :) [/B]

1.you always disagree with something ;)

2.Liverpool got what they deserved,if we'd sat back and defended and beaten you 1-0,we'd have been criticised,we came at you from the beginning,we scored 2 good goals, Arsenal we good but only because of Henry and Bergkamp really,Carragher did well against Pires and kept him fairly quiet.the fifteen or 20 minutes you had all the play in the first half was all Henry with little bits of brilliance from Bergkamp.If Henry gets hurt, Arsenal are in huge trouble.to say that arsenal were great last night is incorrect,they were good and Henry was brilliant(except his finishing)but in the second half Henry was in the game a lot less.

3.Madrid are on a different planet to everyone else,to compare Arsenal to them is ludicris. United,the Milan clubs and maybe Juve are the closest teams to them.

4.Arsenal were lined up in a defensive formation last night,a complete change from normal,they looked excellent on the ball and had a lot of chances,but they all fell to henry except for the rebound to Pires,normally the get chances from everywhere,last night they got what Bergkamp and Henry created.

5.In fairness,Under Van Gaal everyone outplays Barca in La Liga.

6.United have no great defenders??you ever hear of Rio Ferdinand,United have the potential to have a great defense,Rio,Brown and O'Shea are all young and excellent defenders and with Silvestre in great form and Barthez back in top form,they are very hard to score against.

7.PSV are a poor team with 3 or 4 good players,Dortmund were better last year and we beat them.Dortmund beat Arsenal as well remember,so did Auxerre and they are hardly a top team either.

8.Boring and trophys over entertaining and nothing to be honest.you can't lump Madrid and MAN U in that,they play great football and have won everything there is to win.Arsenal are still way behind teams like them,and until you win a CL or three EPL titles in a row,you'll stay behind them.

9.Still boring,but success is the most important thing.

10.When United lost those games they were without a number of World-class players,Arsenal lost to weak sides with a full team.

11.RVN goes down when there is contact,and rightfully so,Jeffers and Pires seem to be preparing for a career in Olympic diving when they finish with football.Ashley Cole is at the same shit as well.

12.Cocoa is yucky.

Drummer

01-30-2003, 12:23 PM

I wont respond to all the quotes because they are all opinions that we have already discussed and I am trying to cut down my repetitive actions;)
What i will say is this:
A good side can play great when the goings good and when you are winning the game. A good side can kill a game off when they are on top. A great side can play well when things arent going their way.
Arsenal are a better team when they are playing well and things are going their way. When teams have put it up to arsenal and they have conceded goals, that has been the time when they have most often been found wanting. Against Everton they were 1-0 up and cruising then everton scored and Arsenal couldnt respond, they couldnt raise their game to salvage something. Against United since arsenal didnt score early and missed a few good chances they lost, never able to get back into the game when they were 1 down. Against Liverpool at highbury we know what happened when they went 1 down, but Gilberto missed a sitter in the last minute, again unable to make the best of their advantage, like last night.
Apart from the Roma game, where arsenal were playing great even b4 roma had scored, I cant remembe too many credible times that Arsenal have in fact shown great character in winning games against good teams, when things were going against them!
United on the other hand are a better team coming from behind as opposed to maintaining a lead. that doesnt necessarily make them a better team, but it shows that when the chips are down, united are a better bet to do something special rather then Arsenal.
Also Henry is not the greatest player in the world to pick things up when things arent going his way. He doesnt like to get challanged badly, if he is and doesnt get a decision he feels that he deserves, he gets upset. When he plays well Arsenal are a great atatcking team, but they are not half as potent when hes off-form!!!
I may write more, but its lunchtime!!

Doubledouble

01-30-2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic
Like real football fanatics know, it is not prizes that makes a team great.
Only for the shortsighted football fans.

Watch one match Arsenal plays and then report back, you will see it different, it is called entertaining football.
Think about that next time you fall asleep watching Liverpool.

Right now Arsenal is playing great, not a damn thing you can say too proof otherwise.

Thank You, Than You, Thank You, i've been saying this all along (in the thread on the Arsenal board). At the moment the way Arsenal play football is up there with anyone one in Europe!!!
Drummer and Rule seem to be having some kind of ongoing feud with JD which seems to be blinkering all three of them.
Soccer fanatic i'm glad someones finally talking sense.

01-30-2003, 06:29 PM

just read this thread for the first time

was still feeling bitter about the great game of football I witnessed last night in which Liverpool scored what was IMO a totally unjustified last minute equaliser.

soocerfanatic has cheered me up no end
we played sumptuos beautiful freeflowing football
Viera and Gilberto both twisted Liverpool players so completely they were falling to the flaw dizzy and confused
our passing was awesome we tore through Liverpool with contemptuous eaze
it was simply wonderful to watch

our showboating attempts to entertain the crowd may ultimately have cost us two points but I'm glad I was there to see it
we looked like we were simply playing a different game

the first international match on record is a 19th century clash between England and Scotland (basically a queens park XI actually) football was in its real infancy (keepers wore same kit as players, the art of heading had yet to be discovered) the English, whose game was based exclusively on 'hacking' (early slide tackling in the day before red or yellow cards) and dribbling
Scotland though won the day with their amazing interpretation of football that involved passing from player to player-
the total culture shock really affected the english players who had never seen anything like it
they took the style of the Scots down south with them - an important moment in football's development

I hope our display had a similarly evngelical influence on some scousers - their players got sick of HOOOF ing the ball by the second half and started to brave Thompsons constant bollockings and passed the ball irrespective of his screamed 'safety first' instructions

I'm glad to be watching such a great Arsenal side, I'm actually glad to be watching such a great FOOTBALL side
I believe Wengers influence of our team can be as influential and revolutionary as his great predecessor Herbert Chapman

Liverpools last minute equaliser was disappointing but is likely to be far more damaging to them than us.
We will continue to play scintillating, freeflowing, improvisational, total football despite one poor result - and will I hope still win the league
Liverpools draw will be interpreted as a vindication of driving longballs down the throat of centrebacks and sending Heskey after them to ruffle a few feathers - and I know Liverpool won't win anything major playing like that

Doubledouble

01-30-2003, 06:42 PM

Well said JD - at the end of the day its about who plays the best football, and although i was impressed for the fist time in about three months with Liverpools spirit, at the end of the day we were miles ahead in footballing terms. Argueing about who's git the most trophies, medals and titles, could go on for ever, round and round, and round. Although ultimatley we have to win the CL, wether people care to admit it or not everyone accepts that we are and have been the best "footballing"side in the EPL, and one of the best "footballing" sides, for several years now.
And did you see that volleyed back heel flick from Bobby, controlled, accurate, and stunning - sums him up i think!

Drummer

01-30-2003, 07:45 PM

The one thing that i must say is that I dont remember too many Arsenal fans talk of arsenals lovely free-flowing football when they didnt win the league in 99' and 2000. And being honest the team with a great defence, a better seaman and an excting Overmars an explosive Anelka a younger bergkamp and a brilliant partnership of petit and Viera were better and more entertaining.
Winning is great, winning playing great football is even better, but nothing beats winning.
The fact that it is only now that arsenal fans says alot. That playing good football is no substitute for winning, no matter how much talking you do.
I will look forward to see your posts again should arsenal finish the season with nothing.
Again, Arsenal are great when they are great, but they are not good at pulling their socks up when they are not playing well.... That again will be a problem in the later stages of the CL

soccer fanatic

01-30-2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by The Rule
1.you always disagree with something ;)

2.Liverpool got what they deserved,

3.Madrid are on a different planet to everyone else,to compare Arsenal to them is ludicris.

4.Arsenal were lined up in a defensive formation last night,a complete change from normal,they looked excellent on the ball and had a lot of chances,but they all fell to henry except for the rebound to Pires,normally the get chances from everywhere,last night they got what Bergkamp and Henry created.

5.In fairness,Under Van Gaal everyone outplays Barca in La Liga.

6.United have no great defenders??you ever hear of Rio Ferdinand,United have the potential to have a great defense,Rio,Brown and O'Shea are all young and excellent defenders and with Silvestre in great form and Barthez back in top form,they are very hard to score against.

7.PSV are a poor team with 3 or 4 good players,Dortmund were better last year and we beat them.Dortmund beat Arsenal as well remember,so did Auxerre and they are hardly a top team either.

8.Boring and trophys over entertaining and nothing to be honest.you can't lump Madrid and MAN U in that,they play great football and have won everything there is to win.Arsenal are still way behind teams like them,and until you win a CL or three EPL titles in a row,you'll stay behind them.

9.Still boring,but success is the most important thing.

10.When United lost those games they were without a number of World-class players,Arsenal lost to weak sides with a full team.

11.RVN goes down when there is contact,and rightfully so,Jeffers and Pires seem to be preparing for a career in Olympic diving when they finish with football.Ashley Cole is at the same shit as well.

12.Cocoa is yucky.

1 Almost always yes. The reason why I`m here, want too hear more views. All are welcome, just don`t expect me too agree with all of them, I do respect them.

2 I disagree, saw the match on tape (had too watch another match) and think Liverpool got more than they deserved, only on workrate I think they were better. But not enough too justify their point IMO.

3 I guess Mallorca are on a even higher planet.

4 Could have fooled me, they pressured Liverpool during big parts of the match. The lost because of a tactical blunder of Wenger.

5 Simply not true. Look at CL for example and various league matches too, Barca were lousy overall but your statement is incorrect.

6 They have good defenders. Ferdinand is good, O`Shea is average now but once more experienced will become very good, I`m an admirer of Silvestre and Brown is ok too. But in midfield and attack they have Veron, Beckham, Scholes, Giggs and RVN too name a few, so it is clear too me that that is their strewnght asnd they should play with that knowledge in a system which emphases the midfield and attack and not the defence.

7 I`ve seen a lot of PSV and although out of Europe in a dissapointing European season, still a side, especially away from home that has class, and more than three or four class players.
I`m lazy, so I will name 5: Hofland, Kezman, Van Bommel, Vennegoor of Hesselink and Waterreus.

8 Unlike you I prefer living in the here and now and not in the past. Right now Arsenal isn`t below the named sides.

9 Already established we disagree on that. If I pay a hundred pounds for a season ticket I would liked too be entertained.

10 If Man Utd is that much dependable on those few players, they aren`t as world class as you make them out too be.
Arsenal missed Ljungberg and Pires too (V. Bronckhorst too) and weren`t any less than normal IMO.

11 I so the matches live where RVN dived, and he did.
And you consider me biased so you must know I`m honest now. ;)

12 OK. :D

soccer fanatic

01-30-2003, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by Drummer
I wont respond to all the quotes because they are all opinions that we have already discussed and I am trying to cut down my repetitive actions;)
What i will say is this:
A good side can play great when the goings good and when you are winning the game. A good side can kill a game off when they are on top. A great side can play well when things arent going their way.
Arsenal are a better team when they are playing well and things are going their way. When teams have put it up to arsenal and they have conceded goals, that has been the time when they have most often been found wanting. Against Everton they were 1-0 up and cruising then everton scored and Arsenal couldnt respond, they couldnt raise their game to salvage something. Against United since arsenal didnt score early and missed a few good chances they lost, never able to get back into the game when they were 1 down. Against Liverpool at highbury we know what happened when they went 1 down, but Gilberto missed a sitter in the last minute, again unable to make the best of their advantage, like last night.
Apart from the Roma game, where arsenal were playing great even b4 roma had scored, I cant remembe too many credible times that Arsenal have in fact shown great character in winning games against good teams, when things were going against them!
United on the other hand are a better team coming from behind as opposed to maintaining a lead. that doesnt necessarily make them a better team, but it shows that when the chips are down, united are a better bet to do something special rather then Arsenal.
Also Henry is not the greatest player in the world to pick things up when things arent going his way. He doesnt like to get challanged badly, if he is and doesnt get a decision he feels that he deserves, he gets upset. When he plays well Arsenal are a great atatcking team, but they are not half as potent when hes off-form!!!
I may write more, but its lunchtime!!

We are indeed getting repetitive, I felt fladhbacks too replying too you.
I understand what your coming from but I saw a lot of Arsenal matches and really can`t agree. Please tape a match of Arsnal and Man Utd and go and watch them right after eachother. Seriously, there is a difference. Nothing against United at all, I respect them.

I think Henry is very good but am amazed like more people I know that everybody is so insanely admiring him.
I know he is fast, good kicker, good technique and ballcontroll, but also see he is too selfish, like you say too too easily invisible and his vision isn`t that good either. Still I regard too him as one of the best in the world right now, but it frustrates me knowing he could be even much better. Really surprises me so many don`t see it.

Hope you had a good lunch.

Drummer

01-30-2003, 11:48 PM

Please tape a match of Arsnal and Man Utd and go and watch them right after eachother.
No what i meant was that in a game arsenal arent able to change things around. Every differant game is a chance to change things around or change things that went wrong in the last game, but in a game where things are going badly I dont think that in that particular game arsenal arent great at getting themselves back into it.
All I am doing is pointing out arsenals weaknesses. At the end of the day, they are the most consistant team in the league, the table doesnt lie.
Still I regard too him as one of the best in the world right now,
I wouldnt argue with that.
Can I point out that I think that yet again Sky Sports are going OTT again.
At the start of the season they were talking about the invincible gunners and how they could be the 1st team to go thru without losing a game. Now all of a sudden after 1 game, against liverpool they are playing total football, even though they are potentially only 2 points clear of united.
I think that this is the same type of hype that makes beckham-mania and projects Wayne Rooney as the next Michael owen cause he scored a few good goals. The same media that Made Owen heargreaves English and just as quickly forgot him. The same media that tols us that united couldnt win the league after less then half the season gone.
I suppose, it doesnt really surprise me when I actually think of it!!!
Without the pace and class of henry this total football is alot less total!!
Total football was united in the second half of the spurs match last year when we wer 3-0 down at HT and came back to win 5-3. Unlike arsenal united took their chances. But that doesnt mean that we can play total football does it? Oh well.......

Drummer

01-30-2003, 11:59 PM

Sorry, Im just fed up with sky and their pathetic media rubbish. One week arsenal are worried about united and newcastle catching up in them, the next arsenal are playing total football.
There are guys coming out of the ground now saying that arsenal play football every week, well why havent they been saying this since b4 yesterday. Brave men saying that after a game like that!!!
Hope you had a good lunch.
Yeh thanks, it was chicken tikka marsala with a few chips to round it off!! Mmmmm.
Ok, now I have seen it all.... Beckham, Veron and Ole at a premier to a pepsi add!!!! Oh give the title to arsenal now!!
I accuse arsenal players of losing concentration on the itch well they are outdone off it by the united ones!!!! Oh the shame. To sky, united are a dream, players that are also celebritys!! Tomorrow United will be the best team in the world!! At least the real fans know better then to believe all they hear by the media.... ;)
By the way, for the record, I think that Liverpool will find some form and pip chelsea for a CL place

soccer fanatic

01-31-2003, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Drummer
No what i meant was that in a game arsenal arent able to change things around. Every differant game is a chance to change things around or change things that went wrong in the last game, but in a game where things are going badly I dont think that in that particular game arsenal arent great at getting themselves back into it.

I`m not good with stats but I think I can recall Arsenal coming back from behind more than once. Or you mean when in a losing streak?

All I am doing is pointing out arsenals weaknesses. At the end of the day, they are the most consistant team in the league, the table doesnt lie.

No such thing as a perfect team, Arsenal isn`t and Real isn`t either. Point is Arsenal play too their possibilities and milk out what they are best in.

I wouldnt argue with that.
Can I point out that I think that yet again Sky Sports are going OTT again.

What means OTT?

At the start of the season they were talking about the invincible gunners and how they could be the 1st team to go thru without losing a game. Now all of a sudden after 1 game, against liverpool they are playing total football, even though they are potentially only 2 points clear of united.

Same with Henry, fans are so crazy about him he can get away with missing a lot of chances and some weak moments without people noticing it. Perhaps because they don`t want too see it and only see his incredible runs. But he makes mistakes too!!!!

I think that this is the same type of hype that makes beckham-mania and projects Wayne Rooney as the next Michael owen cause he scored a few good goals. The same media that Made Owen heargreaves English and just as quickly forgot him. The same media that tols us that united couldnt win the league after less then half the season gone.

Media is that way, watch a lot of BBC and the best example I know which really frustrated me was last years Wimbledon.
With the Henmania. I don`t want too insult English people and can understand their pattriotism, but that really went far.
In Holland we are nuts too, but I never saw so biased television in all my life. Just that woman, the blonde one also from that great show "question of sports" (Sue Parker/Barker) was so incredibly turned on from that Henman guy.
I have a lot of respect for the way Henman plays his sport with a lot of commitment and discipline, but that went too far.

But it showed how much media can do. Wayne Rooney is a good example but he is incredible and will become a huge star. A lot of Dutch analists agree with me on this. Fuirst time I saw him in a live match, I knew it. He just has that talent.
Owen is a clear story, hyped as the best in the world, now a good striker but still disappointing, not his fault he couldn`t live up too those huge expectations.

Without the pace and class of henry this total football is alot less total!!

pace is per definition gaining in importance the last years, look at Gronkjaer and Rommedahl, came too big teams without high skills and only speed. They were trained and know with basic technique they have a great career.
Henry is better ofcourse, a lot better.

Total football was united in the second half of the spurs match last year when we wer 3-0 down at HT and came back to win 5-3. Unlike arsenal united took their chances. But that doesnt mean that we can play total football does it? Oh well.......

No indeed it doesn`t. United plays agressive and attractive but not totall football. You can get comebacks in a match with every system, you just need a bit of luck.

soccer fanatic

01-31-2003, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Drummer
Sorry, Im just fed up with sky and their pathetic media rubbish.

We have that in Holland too, journalists who praise a team with no reason and vice versa. In England I heard it is worse.

[/QUOTE][/B]
One week arsenal are worried about united and newcastle catching up in them, the next arsenal are playing total football.
There are guys coming out of the ground now saying that arsenal play football every week, well why havent they been saying this since b4 yesterday. Brave men saying that after a game like that!!!
[/QUOTE][/B]

Everybody in the world who loves football thinks they know best.
Journalists only get a chance too ventilate it. They are only people too. :)

Yeh thanks, it was chicken tikka marsala with a few chips to round it off!! Mmmmm.

That is one hell of a lunch. :)

Ok, now I have seen it all.... Beckham, Veron and Ole at a premier to a pepsi add!!!! Oh give the title to arsenal now!!

Deal. :D:D
But I think we will win it anyway.

By the way, for the record, I think that Liverpool will find some form and pip chelsea for a CL place

I will have too check the rankings first before commenting.
But normally Chelsea always loose more in the 2nd half of the season and get atleast one losing streak.
Think you are right.
Will be like:
1 Arsenal. :)
2 Man Utd.
3 Newcastle United.
4 Liverpool.
You must agree with this. :D

soccer fanatic

01-31-2003, 12:36 AM

Thanks go too JD and DoubleDouble.

You two obviously are experts.

The Rule

01-31-2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic
Thanks go too JD and DoubleDouble.

You two obviously are experts.

JD is an expert bullshitter,scintilatting,free-flowing football??more like give the ball to Henry and let him run.

soccer fanatic

01-31-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by The Rule
JD is an expert bullshitter,scintilatting,free-flowing football??more like give the ball to Henry and let him run.

I can see you are much more mature. :rolleyes:

01-31-2003, 01:18 PM

at one point yesterday after liverpool had lumped a long straight ball at our defence we played out of trouble next to our left wing corner flag
Henry was at left back played a triangle of passes with Viera and Pire and released Cole who was in the centre forward position

that is freeflowing total football

we didn't score but the arsenal fans where going mad
our skill and technique was just embarassing liverpool it was beautiful to watch, just a nice improvisational little piece of performance art

its why I drag myself up north and pay good money to watch football
its what football, for me, is all about

poul e

01-31-2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by JD
at one point yesterday after liverpool had lumped a long straight ball at our defence we played out of trouble next to our left wing corner flag
Henry was at left back played a triangle of passes with Viera and Pire and released Cole who was in the centre forward position

that is freeflowing total football

we didn't score but the arsenal fans where going mad
our skill and technique was just embarassing liverpool it was beautiful to watch, just a nice improvisational little piece of performance art

its why I drag myself up north and pay good money to watch football
its what football, for me, is all about

It´s great football, but it´s IMO surely not what football is all about! There´s so much more in it for me!!!!
So if Arsenal stopped playing that way you wouldn´t support them anymore???

01-31-2003, 01:49 PM

depends wot u mean by support
at the moment I go to virtually every game - all over the country and europe
I go because of the stunning football we are playing
if we were playing like Liverpool I would probably just stick to home games and take a good book

nasa

01-31-2003, 02:02 PM

what the ***k you talking bout the day your the most successful team in england then speak you titwank

poul e

01-31-2003, 02:06 PM

@JD: I just wanted to know if you would still be an Arsenalfan if you were playing like you did under George Graham and it seems like you would....fair enough!! It´s just your comment "that´s what football is all about" that led me to believe that you were a fan of the way of playing football more than an Arsenalfan....

nasa

01-31-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by poul e
It´s great football, but it´s IMO surely not what football is all about! There´s so much more in it for me!!!!
So if Arsenal stopped playing that way you wouldn´t support them anymore???

man utd are right up your arse and after you get your ass kicked off newcastle its gonna be a matter of time admit it your shit

poul e

01-31-2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by nasa
man utd are right up your arse and after you get your ass kicked off newcastle its gonna be a matter of time admit it your shit

What are you on?? What kind of first messages are those? Speak nice!! And what are you talking about anyway???

The Rule

01-31-2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by nasa
what the ***k you talking bout the day your the most successful team in england then speak you titwank

listen kid,don't come on here and abuse people,you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

The Rule

01-31-2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by nasa
man utd are right up your arse and after you get your ass kicked off newcastle its gonna be a matter of time admit it your shit

he's a liverpool fan what are you saying it to him for you dumb schmuck??and don't come on here and abuse people

01-31-2003, 04:54 PM

iginally posted by poul e [/i]
@JD: I just wanted to know if you would still be an Arsenalfan if you were playing like you did under George Graham and it seems like you would....fair enough!! It´s just your comment "that´s what football is all about" that led me to believe that you were a fan of the way of playing football more than an Arsenalfan.... [/QUOTE]
my first love is football, i loved football before I loved Arsenal
I love to play, coach, watch and discuss football
I believe there is a right way to play football (I dislike Hooflier because he has such a negative boring outlook) the Dutch really WOULD rather be the best footballing team than win. The Pusckas, Hidegkuti magical magyar team was possibly THE greatest football team of all time IMO - its not just about winning
I hate to quote Blanchflower for obvious reasons but he was right
its about glory
I probably watch as much foriegn football+ football videos as I watch Arsenal (if not more) I am a seeker of beauty - I like pretty things, maybe its shallow this pursuit of the aesthetic
maybe I should appreciate a great work ethic, a bit of endeavour and effort more than I do
and maybe I should have picked the ugly girl with the nice personality
but I know what I like
and thats what I want to see

Doubledouble

01-31-2003, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by poul e

So if Arsenal stopped playing that way you wouldn´t support them anymore???

Thats a very silly question to ask any real fan of any club in the world. People tend to forget that real Gooners stuck by the club through the dark days of Rioch, the scandals (and there was a hell of a lot of them, we made LUFC look like happy bloody families), the BorinG Boring tag - and we were -, Nayim from the half way line, and Glenn Helder. We're just enjoying being at the top for a bit.

BTW - I've read this thread right the way through for the third time and i'd just like to thank everyone for making me laugh for more than i've managed all week. JD and Rule you two should seriously consider forming a double act and hitting the comedy circuit.

poul e

01-31-2003, 05:32 PM

@JD: Your view of football is very different from mine then. As you are a fan of a special kind of football I´m a fan of teams. I became a fan of Liverpool in 1974 when I was 6 and watched them on TV and listened to them on the radio from England. I learned to understand the English language at a very early age because of my love for Liverpool. And I didn´t become a fan because of friends or family but just from watching Liverpool on TV. My bigbrother was (still is) an Arsenalfan and it was him who introduced me to football :-)

Liverpool is still "my team" after all these years and it will stay my team for as long as I live - no doubt about that!

There was a period in the 80s where I loved watching AC MIlan. It was when they had Van Basten in their team. He was really something special IMO - too bad his career stopped so early. I almost got Milan as my "Italian team" but after a while I grew tired of the Italian game. It was way too boring for me to watch 2 teams playing 95% of the game in midfield. I wanted the action to be in the penalty areas and that´s what I´ve always loved about English football.

01-31-2003, 07:19 PM

who's yr Danish team?
I support FC Copenhagen (well my Danish relations do - hard to follow danish football in england)
and if arsenal started to play dreadful boring football NOW we would complain and hark back to the Wenger glory years
this is why the last minute equaliser on wednesday was a blow for any Liverpool lovers of good football - because it strengthened Hooflier and BigNoses evil grip on a once great footballing club.

Don't get me wrong I still h8 ManYoo and they play very nice football and probably part of my dislike of both ManYoo and liverpool is growing up in London and h8ing London kids who support those succesful teams instead of London clubs
AND plain jealousy
we may be miles better than both of you NOW but you have both won more major honours historically

but at the end of the day I'll be supporting ManYoo in the worthless cup final -
y?
because they will try and pass the ball and entertain - not grind down opposition and paying audience alike a la Liverpool

poul e

01-31-2003, 08:12 PM

@JD: I support AaB from Aalborg (closest city with a Superliga team). They have been among the best Danish teams as long as I can remember (and long before) but never really made it far in Europe. They did however get to the gruop stages of the Champions League 5 or 6 years ago, and I think they got 1 point. This season AaB is IMO the most entertaining team in the Danish superleague but they have been hit hard by injuries to (amongst others) almost their entire defence. 2 players have been forced to stop their careers because of injuries this season (Frank Strandli & Lennart Bak - both very important players) So they´ve had to bring in a defender on loan. And furthermore a couple of youngsters have had their chances in the team. AaB has 2 of the most promising young Danish players in Michael Silberbauer and Rasmus Würtz - both of them midfielders. But enough about AaB :-))

I certainly hope you´re wrong about the future of Liverpool. I think Houllier has a desire to play more attacking football than he has done the last couple of seasons. He started out this season by saying that if you wanted to become champions you had to attack more than we´ve done last season. Liverpool also started out more attacking than last year but they had huge problems with the defence because of the sudden change to more attacking play. I think we saw in the game against Arsenal that Liverpool are capable of playing more attacking than they have done in games like the Palacegame where Liverpool were terrible. If we had attacked like against Arsenal I´m sure we would have won! I hope we´ll play United in the League Cup final sort of like we played Arsenal. If we attack United too much we´ll end up losing because United are at their best (like Arsenal) if they can play counter attack!! I know Houllier thinks highly of the Worthington Cup and it would of course also be fantastic to get a trophy by beating United, but for me the most important thing now is to finish among the 4 best in the PL. IMO Liverpool could drop out of all the cups right now if it meant we would qualify for next years Champions League. I just hope that GH won´t try too hard to win everything and end up winning nothing because we really need that CL place!!

01-31-2003, 08:18 PM

didn't frank strandli make a few appearances in Leeds championship team?
was he a youth player with them - didn't they win the fa youth cup with him up front?

Drummer

01-31-2003, 08:41 PM

but at the end of the day I'll be supporting ManYoo in the worthless cup final - because they will try and pass the ball and entertain - not grind down opposition and paying audience alike a la Liverpool
I love the way you talk of united as if they have only recently decided to try and play attacking football. Unlike Arsenal we have a manager that has been there for 16 years and in the last 10 has been the most successful, the most important part of this fact is that he is successful having an exciting attacking team. Arsenal do have an entertaining team, but United have always been good to watch, perhaps I am taking it up wrong, but in simple english, welcome to the club, United have been entertaining for years!!!:D

poul e

01-31-2003, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by JD
didn't frank strandli make a few appearances in Leeds championship team?
was he a youth player with them - didn't they win the fa youth cup with him up front?

Frank Strandli (Norwegian) :

Vigør, Kristianssand
Start, Kristianssand, 89 games, 36 goals
Leeds, 14 games, 2 goals
Brann, Bergen, 43 games, 14 goals
Lillestrøm, 38 games, 15 goals
Panathinaikos
AaB, 42 games 18 goals

so, you´re right! :)

Btw...Jesper Grønkjær is from my hometown Thisted. I´ve watched him play for the Thisted youth teams and later for AaB (108 games - 12 goals) as they bought him before he later on moved on to Ajax...

02-02-2003, 04:15 PM

Fergie's early championship teams where built from the back - the key players where defensive - Bruce and Pallister in defence Ince and Robson hard working midfielders (doesn't necessarily mean they were boring, better than liverpool for sure, but they were not as free to swarm forward as the current team)
but football has changed since then
now championship teams are now built from the front.
IMO this is 4a combination of reasons - elimination of the backpass, strickter rulings on slide tackles, tackling from behind prohibited, offside 'advice' to linesman changing (first level became onside, now the instructions given to lino's are give benefit of doubt to striker and include this mention of air between striker and the last man)
also the sky money has allowed prem teams to pick up some of the worlds top attacking talent - people are always a bit more reticent about splashing big cash on defenders.
IMO the prem title has been won on goals rather than defences for the last few years.
the proliferation of teams playing wing-backs and greater fitness levels have enouraged managers to expect more positive attacking contribution from fullbacks. great box2box mids like keane and viera have made people expect more on the attacking third from 'defensive' midfielders.
I think football in England is at an attacking peak at the moment

and we are not 'in the club' with united, we own the club, we are the club.

We play football on a different level from ManYoo.
The best attacking football in the league - a good fulham team made it hard for us yesterday but our class told through. We simply had too many attacking options to contain - wenger used each of his three substitutions to increase our attacking potential and eventually Fulham were overloaded at the back.

ManYoo have some great attacking players but even if they could match our high technique attacking play it is the physical power, pace and athleticism that push arsenal to the next level. The pace and stamina of our french players just broke down fulhams (also a mostly french team) resolve. ManYoo don't have the pace or the physical power of arsenal - and it is this amazing athleticism allied to great technique that makes arsenal as great a spectacle as we are.

The Rule

02-03-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Doubledouble
JD and Rule you two should seriously consider forming a double act and hitting the comedy circuit.

sounds good,JD, what do you reckon mate??

Drummer

02-03-2003, 12:35 PM

Fergie's early championship teams where built from the back - the key players where defensive - Bruce and Pallister in defence Ince and Robson hard working midfielders
With Kanchelskis and giggs on the wing and Cantona and hughesd up front, yeh very boring:confused:
and we are not 'in the club' with united, we own the club, we are the club.
What?
Where were this amazingly exciting arsenal team when united were winning the treble in 99' in exciting and devastating fashion? No arsenal are only trying to be better then the united and liverpool teams that were outstanding to watch and winners. Again it will take a few years of success for that to be acomplashed, by all means keep at it!;)
ManYoo have some great attacking players but even if they could match our high technique attacking play it is the physical power, pace and athleticism that push arsenal to the next level.
And when did arsenal pass this level? Was it when they won the league? Or is this a level that they will prove they have passed if they can do something worth noting in europe?
We have Scholes, Giggs, Veron, Beckham, Ruud and Ole all exciting class players in the peak of their careers. Arsenal have Ljungberg, Pires, Gilberto, Henry and an aging bergkamp. Yep I see what you mean!!!:D
ManYoo don't have the pace or the physical power of arsenal - and it is this amazing athleticism allied to great technique that makes arsenal as great a spectacle as we are.
What are you talking about? The pace you speak of is henry, pires is fast but no faster then giggs. Power???? Where is this coming from? Where was the power against Phil Neville? We have O'shea, Ferdinand and Brown, who are big men and all young players. you have an aging but still strong and dirty Keown and class Campbell, apart from these two Arsenal are very weak in the Centre back position. In midfield Viera and Keane cancel each other out, so again where is this power that you speak of, or is it the power that allows arsenal to cast aside the weaker teams of the epl.
By the way it wasnt class that allowed arsenal to go through it was a mixture of luck and determination. Jeffers wasnt trying to pass that ball!!!;)

The Rule

02-03-2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by Drummer
1.With Kanchelskis and giggs on the wing and Cantona and hughesd up front, yeh very boring:confused:

2.What?
Where were this amazingly exciting arsenal team when united were winning the treble in 99' in exciting and devastating fashion? No arsenal are only trying to be better then the united and liverpool teams that were outstanding to watch and winners. Again it will take a few years of success for that to be acomplashed, by all means keep at it!;)

3.And when did arsenal pass this level? Was it when they won the league? Or is this a level that they will prove they have passed if they can do something worth noting in europe?
We have Scholes, Giggs, Veron, Beckham, Ruud and Ole all exciting class players in the peak of their careers. Arsenal have Ljungberg, Pires, Gilberto, Henry and an aging bergkamp. Yep I see what you mean!!!:D

4.What are you talking about? The pace you speak of is henry, pires is fast but no faster then giggs. Power???? Where is this coming from? Where was the power against Phil Neville? We have O'shea, Ferdinand and Brown, who are big men and all young players. you have an aging but still strong and dirty Keown and class Campbell, apart from these two Arsenal are very weak in the Centre back position. In midfield Viera and Keane cancel each other out, so again where is this power that you speak of, or is it the power that allows arsenal to cast aside the weaker teams of the epl.
5.
By the way it wasnt class that allowed arsenal to go through it was a mixture of luck and determination. Jeffers wasnt trying to pass that ball!!!;)

1.yeah very boring,don't know how they were successful.
2.trying and failing to be better than those teams IMO.
3.I think that the one season of success pushed them to that level,the previous decade long dominances of first Liverpool and now United count for nothing.
4.Pires is considerably slower than Giggs,i wouldn't say that Cole is any faster than Silvestre.the only place they have that extra speed is up-front,Henry over RVN,but the Man U central defense is a lot quicker those three slow ****s the gooners have to choose from.
5.NO NO NO, Drummer that was Arsenal's scintillating,free-flowing football at it's very best,first the wonderful pass(lucky deflection) which brought into Jeffers path,his great control(he couldn't trap a bag of sand)and the beautifully waited pass(a scuffed daisy-cutter)which put it in Pires's path.Goal of the season contender for sure.

Drummer

02-03-2003, 04:43 PM

3.I think that the one season of success pushed them to that level,the previous decade long dominances of first Liverpool and now United count for nothing.
How silly of me to forget:D
5.NO NO NO, Drummer that was Arsenal's scintillating,free-flowing football at it's very best,first the wonderful pass(lucky deflection) which brought into Jeffers path,his great control(he couldn't trap a bag of sand)and the beautifully waited pass(a scuffed daisy-cutter)which put it in Pires's path.Goal of the season contender for sure.
When you look at it that way, I suppose arsenal do play amazing football as that wasnt even their best goal of the game!!! WoooooW!!:D ;)

The Rule

02-03-2003, 04:44 PM

yeah that goal was light-years ahead of anything anyone else could ever score.

flowforth

02-21-2003, 03:16 PM

flowforth

02-21-2003, 03:19 PM

I posted my last message on Man Yoo boards - this is the pathetic response:

"If i remember correctly you're a Pool fan. You'd be better off concentrating on your own teams problems.
Regarding resources,ironically Houllier's had plenty of money to spend and he also had a core group of good players. He has the resources but he's achived little or nothing, he's just blown a load of cash on painfully average players.
Lippi had the resources at Inter but he couldn't do anything with them, couldn't even bring them into the CL.
As any manager will tell you, the boot incident is a regular happening. It happens every week up and down the country. The fact that it was our manager and our club involved is the only reason it's got blown up.
We may not be the best team in the Premiership right now but we are England's best hope in Europe yet again. As per usual Arsenal couldn't cut it in Europe and are struggling to qualify, we've played under par in 2 out of 3 matches and yet we're a virtual certainty for the next stage. This Utd era is far from finished."

flowforth

02-21-2003, 03:21 PM

Hey Doz - for your information I do concentrate on my own team and have posted many threads that criticize Houllier's management style. I think, however, that I am free to roam on occasion and comment on other issues in football. I would hope that you entertain opposing viewpoints or constructive criticism in order to produce richer threads. I hope this is the case and you don't pull a "fergie" with this thread.

As others have said, I happen to think that Fergie is an outdated dinosaur and agree that he's not the only one. There is a contingent in England who have not progressed or developed like Taylor or Wilkinson. There are, however, many ways to motivate a team - brute force being only one. Also, this incident happened after the game - so it was vindictive rather than motivational. Rather than answer to all the other abuses - you chose to change the subject and deflect the criticism. This does not change the fact that Ferguson is becoming a destructive force in the English game.
What was the point of his refusal to apologise if the incident were a mistake? Is he too macho or pig-headed to realize that his actions are sometimes abusive? And what was the point of his remarks about Erikson? Snitching on him to the press about an "alledged" management deal! Notice the timing - right in the middle of the club v country debate! He's a calculated, underhanded, conniving, self-absorbed freak! If he had his way, all the players would quit their international careers, divorce their wives, give away their children, and cow-tow to his every whim.

Sure, he's been a shrewd manager, made some good decisions. But alot have managers would have achieved in that set-up. Oh, and by the way, Arsenal are still in Europe and United looked good before they faltered last year. I can only hope that more people become like the Sunderland GM and tel lthem to stuff it when they come raping and pillaging! Or players develop the testicular fortitude of Harry Kewell and play for their country no matter what the club manager says. He's a grubby little dictator - if people (and Becks missed his chance) stood up to him - his power would crumble!

Feel free to counter this criticism - it's only a game!

flowforth

02-21-2003, 03:23 PM

Come on prawn-eaters - let's hear your well thought out Fergie defense! I know most of you live in the South and started supporting United in 99 - but if you try - you could carve out a non-media driven response. Is it simply Machiavellianism - the ends justifies the means? If Fergie goes without a trophy this year - might you all of a sudden develop a conscience about his actions?

Needless to say - "It's all gone quiet over there..."

The Rule

02-25-2003, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by flowforth
[/B]Needless to say - "It's all gone quiet over there..." [/B]

as the saying goes, "you only sing when you are winning", even we beat Bolton at the Reebok....................that said we have had nothing to sing about since November.

flowforth

02-25-2003, 03:48 PM

These Man Yoo threads are crap aren't they Rule? Must be new on the bandwagon! Guess we'll go back to our palace of conversation!

The Rule

02-25-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by flowforth
These Man Yoo threads are crap aren't they Rule? Must be new on the bandwagon! Guess we'll go back to our palace of conversation!

Yeah they seem very conscious about going 2 years with no silverware, and they have the illusion that Ferguson is still a good manager.

Actually if you can get talking with ppl like Doz Red Devil and Drummer off the man u forum, they are cool, but once there they start munching their prawn sandwiches.

Drummer

02-25-2003, 04:07 PM

This man has become an ugly despot, a dictator who is beginning to lose control. It is time to roll him out the door. He's done well at United - but who wouldn't with those resources? I think too much is made of his coaching acumen - he was fortunate to inherit such a wealth.
What wealth did he inherit??
United were a very average team when he was appointed manager, Edwards couldnt even sell his shares of the club for 1 million pounds, I dont know where you get that from.
His hunger for power is beginning to affect the national teams. He has no right to influence the international careers of his players, withhold players or make demands on national team coaches.
So thats what this rant is about. I suppose he is the only manager in the epl to give out about this. No actually arsenal moaner does also. I dont see any other english team having more then 5 players on teh english panel. My point is that the english papers only write about things that relate to the england national team. Wenger going on about france and england is differant because he loses more players to france then england, so he doesnt get as upset about the english situation.
No respect for his own players - what would a simple apology to Beckham cost him?
dont be either naive or stupid. did beckham apologise to united fans when he missed a days training to watch his son so his wife could go shopping? No , why is this important? Because he makes in a day what most people make in half a year and its the fans that have to caugh up for it. Ohh Englands finest got a boot in the head, so f*kin what, he is a ponce and no other player in the world would be as faggoty to make sure the rest of the world would see it.
Anyway perhas fergie apologised in private, unlike the way Beckingham palaces queen would prefer it to be. So apologising in public would make it ok, thats the way dirty linen should be done??
I say we let Victoria have a go at him. At least she seems to have guts and principals unlike her husband.
Actually its not guts she has but marketing abilities. Beckham in the paper is her in the paper, is publicity, if you think that its anything else, then sory for you. As for what happens in the dressing room should remain there. Millions of pro's around the world have fall-outs with coaches but you dont see them bitching about them or coming out in public with a scratch covered up as if they had been shot in the head.
What was the point of his refusal to apologise if the incident were a mistake? Is he too macho or pig-headed to realize that his actions are sometimes abusive?
You said yourself it was a mistake so why should he broadcast an apology to the press?/ Oh because we deserve to know or some crap like that?? I dont care what happened, what I do care is that Beckham showed no signs of keeping what happens in the club a secret. Dressing room bust-ups etc should be kept in the dressing room. Beckham made sure this didnt and I think that he is a greater criminal in the whole ordeal then Fergi.
And what was the point of his remarks about Erikson? Snitching on him to the press about an "alledged" management deal!
Actyually to the more intelligent with which you have terrible trouble understanding, this was another master stroke from fergi. Whats the best way to take attention off something or somebody? An even bigger story. It was a smokescreen and gave the press boys a differant story to write about. Fergie took the focus off his team (something Beckham never thought of when he showed off his scratch on his head), like a truely great manager (Gerrard Houllier take note) he takes pressure off his players himself.
Sure, he's been a shrewd manager, made some good decisions. But alot have managers would have achieved in that set-up.
Thats why united managers till fergi had so much trouble winning trophies, even though they had the same resources available. Thats why Madrid are always on top of things? No wait for 8 years in the spanish league in the 90's they were nowhere near achieving success. Money doesnt guarnatee success, milan prooved that. He has only the the last 3 years been able to actually sign players that are truely world class as up until then the wage restrictions united had meant that even chelsea had less trouble getting players to sign for them. Sure Cantona nearly left because they wouldnt resign him for the going rate!!
Again for the more intelligent of football fans you would actually see that fergies team spends no more then most in the transfer window. Over the past 10 years I would say, balancing out the sale of players (which is underestimated but I have followed closely the clever finance shifting figures) to the purchase of players, while it may not be equal it would certainly shock.
Fergies ability to juggle sales with expenses is remarkable and the united spin docters make united fans happy. United bought one player this year and last year, getting rid of Cole, yorke, irwin, Blomqwist, stam, Johnsen along with many others to cuit wage bills and get cash. Of course you wouldnt understand this kind of simple financial jargon but I will leave it there for those that do.
keep up the bashing, Im sure there are some out there that agree. the funniest thing is that you say....
I know most of you live in the South and started supporting United in 99 - but if you try - you could carve out a non-media driven response.
Yet all your knowledge of fergi and united is from the media, kind of ironic really, or just a contradiction. All your responses and opinions have been shaped by the media, you tool!!:D ;)

The Rule

02-25-2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Drummer
1.What wealth did he inherit??
United were a very average team when he was appointed manager, Edwards couldnt even sell his shares of the club for 1 million pounds, I dont know where you get that from.

2.So thats what this rant is about. I suppose he is the only manager in the epl to give out about this. No actually arsenal moaner does also. I dont see any other english team having more then 5 players on teh english panel. My point is that the english papers only write about things that relate to the england national team. Wenger going on about france and england is differant because he loses more players to france then england, so he doesnt get as upset about the english situation.

3.dont be either naive or stupid. did beckham apologise to united fans when he missed a days training to watch his son so his wife could go shopping? No , why is this important? Because he makes in a day what most people make in half a year and its the fans that have to caugh up for it. Ohh Englands finest got a boot in the head, so f*kin what, he is a ponce and no other player in the world would be as faggoty to make sure the rest of the world would see it.
Anyway perhas fergie apologised in private, unlike the way Beckingham palaces queen would prefer it to be. So apologising in public would make it ok, thats the way dirty linen should be done??

4.Actually its not guts she has but marketing abilities. Beckham in the paper is her in the paper, is publicity, if you think that its anything else, then sory for you. As for what happens in the dressing room should remain there. Millions of pro's around the world have fall-outs with coaches but you dont see them bitching about them or coming out in public with a scratch covered up as if they had been shot in the head.

5.You said yourself it was a mistake so why should he broadcast an apology to the press?/ Oh because we deserve to know or some crap like that?? I dont care what happened, what I do care is that Beckham showed no signs of keeping what happens in the club a secret. Dressing room bust-ups etc should be kept in the dressing room. Beckham made sure this didnt and I think that he is a greater criminal in the whole ordeal then Fergi.

6.Actyually to the more intelligent with which you have terrible trouble understanding, this was another master stroke from fergi. Whats the best way to take attention off something or somebody? An even bigger story. It was a smokescreen and gave the press boys a differant story to write about. Fergie took the focus off his team (something Beckham never thought of when he showed off his scratch on his head), like a truely great manager (Gerrard Houllier take note) he takes pressure off his players himself.

7.Thats why united managers till fergi had so much trouble winning trophies, even though they had the same resources available. Thats why Madrid are always on top of things? No wait for 8 years in the spanish league in the 90's they were nowhere near achieving success. Money doesnt guarnatee success, milan prooved that. He has only the the last 3 years been able to actually sign players that are truely world class as up until then the wage restrictions united had meant that even chelsea had less trouble getting players to sign for them. Sure Cantona nearly left because they wouldnt resign him for the going rate!!
Again for the more intelligent of football fans you would actually see that fergies team spends no more then most in the transfer window. Over the past 10 years I would say, balancing out the sale of players (which is underestimated but I have followed closely the clever finance shifting figures) to the purchase of players, while it may not be equal it would certainly shock.
Fergies ability to juggle sales with expenses is remarkable and the united spin docters make united fans happy. United bought one player this year and last year, getting rid of Cole, yorke, irwin, Blomqwist, stam, Johnsen along with many others to cuit wage bills and get cash. Of course you wouldnt understand this kind of simple financial jargon but I will leave it there for those that do.
keep up the bashing, Im sure there are some out there that agree. the funniest thing is that you say....

8.Yet all your knowledge of fergi and united is from the media, kind of ironic really, or just a contradiction. All your responses and opinions have been shaped by the media, you tool!!:D ;)

to much to grow through,but
1.He inherited a big club with a decent core of players and he was backed financially.
2.You're correct Arsene Whinger is far worse at than Fergie.
3.Fergie hasn't apologised at all, he has said as much.Beckham missed training cos Brooklyn was sick, Posh went shopping in Boots to get medicine for him.
4.Good point.
5.he should apologise because IMO it would boost his image, people would see that he can admit when he was in the wrong, he is viewed as arrogany,If it had hit Keane you can be sure he'd have apologised.
6.He was disrespectful and seems to have gained the opinion that he's bigger than the club and the FA.He should have kept his mouth shut.
7.Madrid only went 6 years without winning La Liga, but that's neither here nor there, Fergie could have signed the best players, he had the money, but the players wanted to play in Italy.
8.I agree with Flow to be honest,but i think it was 96 when most people jumped on the band-wagon(i don't mean you Drummer)

flowforth

02-25-2003, 06:02 PM

1.What wealth did he inherit??
United were a very average team when he was appointed manager, Edwards couldnt even sell his shares of the club for 1 million pounds, I dont know where you get that from.

*Actually they were one of the two richest teams. Edwards kept hedging on the sale of his shares - irrelevent!

2.So thats what this rant is about. I suppose he is the only manager in the epl to give out about this. No actually arsenal moaner does also. I dont see any other english team having more then 5 players on teh english panel. My point is that the english papers only write about things that relate to the england national team. Wenger going on about france and england is differant because he loses more players to france then england, so he doesnt get as upset about the english situation.

* Sure - Wenger is bad too! But Sir A-hole takes it a bit further with his various methods of coersion!

3.dont be either naive or stupid. did beckham apologise to united fans when he missed a days training to watch his son so his wife could go shopping? No , why is this important? Because he makes in a day what most people make in half a year and its the fans that have to caugh up for it. Ohh Englands finest got a boot in the head, so f*kin what, he is a ponce and no other player in the world would be as faggoty to make sure the rest of the world would see it.
Anyway perhas fergie apologised in private, unlike the way Beckingham palaces queen would prefer it to be. So apologising in public would make it ok, thats the way dirty linen should be done??

* Beckham's "alleged" shopping incident has no baring on basic principles of human etiquette! Your argument had some merrit until you lapsed into your homophobic ravings. I'm sorry your insecure in this department - to the point that Beckham could unsettle you. You shouldn't mention "dirty line" in a conversation about Sir A-hole. His attempts to smear people in public and in print are matched only by the pathetic Roy Keane! At least you too

4.Actually its not guts she has but marketing abilities. Beckham in the paper is her in the paper, is publicity, if you think that its anything else, then sory for you. As for what happens in the dressing room should remain there. Millions of pro's around the world have fall-outs with coaches but you dont see them bitching about them or coming out in public with a scratch covered up as if they had been shot in the head.

* Strange sentences there mate! I think your trying to deduce that Beckham embelished the injury! I think you might be right! But...let's see...where do you think he learned to over-exaggerate? Couldn't be that freak of a manager could it?

5.You said yourself it was a mistake so why should he broadcast an apology to the press?/ Oh because we deserve to know or some crap like that?? I dont care what happened, what I do care is that Beckham showed no signs of keeping what happens in the club a secret. Dressing room bust-ups etc should be kept in the dressing room. Beckham made sure this didnt and I think that he is a greater criminal in the whole ordeal then Fergi.

* I'm not sure if your ethical opinion holds weight after reading a few sentences of your attempted rebuttal. Fergie's psychotic power-lusting theatrics are a little more over the top than most other manangers - if we are to be honest!

6.Actyually to the more intelligent with which you have terrible trouble understanding, this was another master stroke from fergi. Whats the