Must Read!!!Gore Vidal;Oil Behind Bush's Afghan Fiasco

[rimaldiniKG]

Mirror.co.uk
> >
> > Jul 10 2002
> >
> > By Jon Clements
> >
> > US writer Gore Vidal has launched a blistering attack on George W Bush
> > and his War on Terror.
> >
> >
> > The outspoken 76-year-old said America provoked the September 11 attacks
> > with its own military intervention in countries around the world.
> >
> >
> > Staunch democrat Gore, a former White House aide to John F Kennedy,
> > insisted the US should stop meddling in other people's affairs.
> >
> >
> > In an interview with LA Weekly reporter MARC COOPER he claimed Bush's
> > attack on Afghanistan was motivated by oil, not revenge. Here's his
> > views:
> >
> >
> > LA WEEKLY: Are you arguing that the 3,000 killed on September 11 somehow
> > deserved their fate?
> >
> >
> > GORE VIDAL: I don't think we, the American people, deserved what
> > happened. Nor do we deserve the sort of governments we have had over the
> > past 40 years. Our governments have brought this upon us by their
>actions
> > all over the world.
> >
> >
> > I have a list in my new book that gives the reader some idea how busy we
> > have been.
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately, we only get disinformation from The New York Times and
> > other official places. Americans have no idea of the extent of their
> > government's mischief.
> >
> >
> > The number of military strikes we have made unprovoked, against other
> > countries, since 1947 is more than 250.
> >
> >
> > These are major strikes from Panama to Iran. It isn't even a complete
> > list. It doesn't include places like Chile, as that was a CIA operation.
> > I was only listing military attacks.
> >
> >
> > Americans are either not told about these things or are told we attacked
> > them because...well...
> >
> >
> > Noriega is the centre of all world drug traffic and we have to get rid
>of
> > him. So we kill some Panamanians in the process.
> >
> >
> > Actually we killed quite a few. We brought in our Air Force. Panama
> > didn't have an air force. But it looked good to have our Air Force
>there,
> > busy, blowing up buildings.
> >
> >
> > Then we kidnap their leader, Noriega, a former CIA man who worked
>loyally
> > for the US. We arrest him. Try him in an American court that has no
> > jurisdiction over him and lock him up - nobody knows why.
> >
> >
> > And that was supposed to end the drug trade because he had been
>demonised
> > by The New York Times and the rest of the imperial press.
> >
> >
> > (The government) plays off (Americans') relative innocence, or ignorance
> > to be more precise.
> >
> >
> > This is probably why geography has not really been taught since World
>War
> > II - to keep people in the dark as to where we are blowing things up.
> >
> >
> > Because Enron wants to blow them up. Or Unocal, the great pipeline
> > company, wants a war going some place.
> >
> >
> > And people in the countries who are recipients of our bombs get angry.
> > The Af-ghans had nothing to do with what happened to our country on
> > September 11. But Saudi Arabia did. It seems Osama is involved, but we
> > don't really know.
> >
> >
> > I mean, when we went into Afghanistan to take over the place and blow it
> > up, our commanding general was asked how long it was going to take to
> > find bin Laden. The general looked surprised and said, well, that's not
> > why we are here.
> >
> >
> > Oh no? So what was all this about? It was about the Taliban being very,
> > very bad people and that they treated women very badly, you see.
> >
> >
> > They're not really into women's rights, and we here are very strong on
> > women's rights, and we should be with Bush on that one because he's
> > taking those burlap sacks off of women's heads. Well, that's not what it
> > was about.
> >
> >
> > What it was really about is that this is an imperial grab for energy
> > resources. Until now, the Persian Gulf has been our main source for
> > imported oil. We went there, to Afghanistan, not to get Osama and
> > vengeance.
> >
> >
> > We went partly because the Taliban - who we had installed during the
> > Russian occupation - were getting too flaky and because Unocal, the
> > California corporation, had made a deal with the Taliban for a pipeline
> > to get the Caspian-area oil - the richest oil reserve on Earth.
> >
> >
> > They wanted to get that oil by pipeline through Afghanistan to Pakistan
> > and from there to ship it off to China, which would be enormously
> > profitable.
> >
> >
> > Whichever big company could cash in would make a fortune.
> >
> >
> > And you'll see that all these companies go back to Bush or Cheney or
> > Rumsfeld or someone else on the Gas and Oil Junta, which, along with the
> > Pentagon, governs the United States.
> >
> >
> > We had planned to occupy Afghanistan in October, and Osama, or whoever
> > hit us in September, launched a pre-emptory strike. They knew we were
> > coming. This was a warning to throw us off guard.
> >
> >
> > LA WEEKLY: Still, even if one reads the chart of military interventions
> > in your book and concludes that, indeed, the US government is a "source
> > of evil" can't you conceive there might be other forces of evil as well?
> > Can't you imagine forces of religious obscurantism, for example, that
>act
> > independently of us and might do bad things to us, because they are
>evil?
> >
> >
> > VIDAL: Oh yes. But you picked the wrong group. You picked one of the
> > richest families in the world - the bin Ladens. They are close to the
> > royal family of Saudi Arabia, which has conned us into acting as their
> > bodyguard against their own people - who are even more fundamentalist
> > than they are. So we are dealing with a powerful entity if it is Osama.
> >
> >
> > What isn't true is that people like him just come out of the blue. The
> > average American thinks we just give away billions in foreign aid, when
> > we are the lowest in foreign aid among developed countries. Most of what
> > we give goes to Israel and Egypt.
> >
> >
> > I was in Guatemala when the CIA was preparing its attack on the Arbenz
> > government (in 1954).
> >
> >
> > Arbenz, who was a democratically elected president, mildly socialist.
> >
> >
> > His state had no revenues. Its biggest income maker was United Fruit
> > Company. So Arbenz put the tiniest of taxes on bananas and Henry Cabot
> > Lodge said in the Senate the Communists have taken over Guatemala and we
> > must act.
> >
> >
> > He got to Eisenhower, who sent in the CIA, and they overthrew the
> > government. We installed a military dictator and there's been nothing
>but
> > bloodshed ever since.
> >
> >
> > Now, if I were a Guatemalan and I had the means to drop something on
> > somebody in Washington I would be tempted to do it. Especially if I had
> > lost my family and seen my country blown to bits because United Fruit
> > didn't want to pay taxes. Now, that's the way we operate. And that's why
> > we got to be so hated.
> >
> >
> > LA WEEKLY: You've spent decades bemoaning the erosion of civil liberties
> > and the conversion of the US from a republic into what you call an
> > empire. Have the after effects of September 11, things like the USA
> > Patriot Bill, pushed us further down the road or are they, in fact, some
> > sort of historic turning point?
> >
> >
> > VIDAL: The second law of thermodynamics always rules: Everything is
> > always running down.
> >
> >
> > And so is our Bill of Rights. The current junta in charge of our
>affairs,
> > one not legally elected but put in charge of us by the Supreme Court in
> > the interests of the oil, gas and defence lobbies, have used Oklahoma
> > City and now September 11 to further erode things. And when it comes to
> > Oklahoma and Tim McVeigh, well, he had his reasons as well to carry out
> > his deed.
> >
> >
> > Millions agree with his general reasoning, though no-one agrees with the
> > value of blowing up children.
> >
> >
> > But the American people instinctively know when the government goes off
> > the rails like it did at Waco and Ruby Ridge. No-one has been elected
> > president in the past 50 years unless he ran against the federal
> > government. So, the government should get through its head that it is
> > hated not only by foreigners whose countries we have wrecked, but also
>by
> > Americans whose lives have been wrecked. The Patriot movement was based
> > on folks run off their family farms. We have millions of disaffected
> > Americans who do not like the way the place is run and see no place
>where
> > they can prosper.
> >
> >
> > LA WEEKLY: And yet Americans seem quite susceptible to a sort of
> > jingoistic "enemy-of-the-month club" coming out of Washington. You say
> > millions of Americans hate the government. But something like 75 per
>cent
> > say they support George W. Bush, especially on the issue of the war.
> >
> >
> > VIDAL: I hope you don't believe those figures. Don't you know how the
> > polls are rigged?
> >
> >
> > It's simple. After 9/11 the country was shocked and terrified. (Bush)
> > does a war dance and talks about evil axis and all the countries he's
> > going to go after. And how long it is going to take, he says with a
>happy
> > smile, because it means billions for the Pentagon and for his oil
> > friends.
> >
> >
> > And it means curtailing our liberties, so this is very thrilling for
>him.
> > He's out there bombing Afghanistan. Well, he might as well have been
> > bombing Denmark.
> >
> >
> > Denmark had nothing to do with 9/11. And neither did Afghanistan.
> >
> >
> > So the question is still asked, are you standing tall with the
>president?
> > Standing with him as he defends us? Eventually, they will figure it out.
> >
> >
> > LA WEEKLY: They being who? The American people?
> >
> >
> > Yeah, the American people. They are asked these quick questions. Do you
> > approve of him? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, he blew up all those
> > funny-sounding cities over there.
> >
> >
> > That doesn't mean they like him. Mark my words. He will leave office the
> > most unpopular president in history. The junta has done too much
> > wreckage.
> >
> >
> > They were suspiciously ready with the Patriot Act as soon as we were
>hit.
> > Which means they have already got their police state.
> >
> >
> > LA WEEKLY: Let's pick away at one of your favourite bones, the American
> > media. Some say they have done a better-than-usual job since 9/11. But I
> > suspect you're not buying that?
> >
> >
> > VIDAL: No, I don't buy it. Part of the year I live in Italy. And I find
> > out more about what's going on in the Middle East by reading the
>British,
> > the French, even the Italian press.
> >
> >
> > Everything here is slanted. I mean, to watch Bush doing his war dance in
> > Congress...about "evil doers" and this "axis of evil" - Iran, Iraq and
> > North Korea. I thought, he doesn't even know what the word axis means.
> >
> >
> > LA WEEKLY: What about George W. Bush, the man?
> >
> >
> > VIDAL: You mean George W. Bush, the cheerleader. That's the only thing
>he
> > ever did of some note. He had some involvement with a baseball team...
> >
> >
> > LA WEEKLY: He owned it...
> >
> >
> > VIDAL: Yeah, bought with other people' s money. Oil people's money. So
> > he's never really worked and shows little capacity for learning.
> >
> >
> > LA WEEKLY: Should the US just pack up its military from everywhere and
>go
> > home?
> >
> >
> > VIDAL: Yes. With no exceptions. We are not the world's policeman. We
> > cannot even police the United States.
> >
> >
> > GORE Vidal's latest book is entitled: Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace:
> > How We Got To Be So Hated.
> >
> >
> >
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/156025405X/qid=1026290468/sr=1-1/ref=
>sr_1_1/002-0760418-3867260
> >

[ilcapitano]

Originally posted by rimaldiniKG
> > LA WEEKLY: Should the US just pack up its military from everywhere and
>go
> > home?
> >
> >
> > VIDAL: Yes. With no exceptions. We are not the world's policeman. We
> > cannot even police the United States.


Exactly.
None of this is hardly a surprise to anybody...

[Storm]

As I previously mentioned in other threads, the U.S do things always with a hidden agenda. The U.S would never waste their time or resources unless there was something substantial to be gained. Worse still they like to make themselves appear the noble/honourable country when they carry out their ridicualous actions. Sad that many r blinded to the self-centred way of the U.S and it's policies, they r out to profit off everything else regardless of the rules that need to be broken or the innocents they hurt.

[rimaldiniKG]

This is just a little of what did really happen!!!!!!!

[Ivan]

Thank you for that excellent article! :thumbsup:

If the current US regime had at least a few people in it's cabinet with the intellect of Gore Vidal, the government wouldn't be half bad.

[Walter BC]

This is a very good article, and all of it is true, but it's not even close to all of what has been done by the mighty USA!

[rimaldiniKG]

You're welcome...
And i wish that the american members read this.......!!!!

And i want to say that this is a part of the reality of 11 sept.....And still to know the other realities of others circumstances like Israel, Iraq.....and many others...

[Storm]

I got the following from a good reputable source a while ago, shame I now can't find the source again. It proves to be interesting reading.

For those further interested, look up Commordore Mathew Perry. He was the one who led the U.S naval blockade of Japan. The purpose of the blockade was to force Japan to trade with the U.S. In short the U.S flexed their muscle once again to force their way into a profitable situation.



VI. Wantonly Infringing upon Human Rights of Other Countries
>
>The United States ranks first in the world in terms of military
>spending and arms export. Its military expenditure accounts for
>nearly 40 percent of the world total, more than the combined
>military expenditure of the nine countries ranking next to it. Its
>arms exports account for 36 percent of the world total. U.S.
>defense budget for the 2003 fiscal year announced by the U.S.
>Defense Department on February 4, 2002 totaled 379 billion U.S.
>dollars, up 48 billion U.S. dollars, or 15 percent, over the
>previous year and representing the highest growth rate in the past
>two decades.
>The United States ranks first in the world in wantonly
>infringing upon the sovereignty of, and human rights in, other
>countries. Since the 1990s, the United States has used force
>overseas on more than 40 occasions. On April 1, 2001, a U.S.
>military reconnaissance plane flew above waters off China's coast
>in violation of flight rules, causing the crash of a Chinese
>aircraft and the death of its pilot. It presumptuously entered
>China's territorial airspace without permission from the Chinese
>side and landed on a Chinese military airfield, seriously
>encroaching upon China's sovereignty and human rights. After the
>incident, the United States made all sorts of excuses to defend
>itself, refusing to make a public apology for the serious
>consequences of its intruding aircraft and trying to shirk its
>responsibilities. This aroused great indignation and strong
>protests from the Chinese people.
>The United States has built many military bases all over the
>world, where it has stationed hundreds of thousands of troops,
>violating human rights everywhere in the world. Before the
>September 11 incident, the United States had stationed its troops
>in more than 140 countries. Today, the United States has expanded
>its so-called security interests to almost every corner of the
>world. In recent years, U.S. troops stationed in Japan have
>frequently committed crimes. In 1995, three American soldiers
>raped a Japanese schoolgirl in Okinawa, sparking massive protests
>by the Japanese people and arousing the alert of world public
>opinion. In fact, scandals like this happen almost every year. On
>January 11, 2001, an American soldier was arrested for molesting a
>local schoolgirl in Okinawa. On January 19, the Okinawa parliament
>adopted a resolution of protest against frequent criminal
>activities by American soldiers, calling for reduction of U.S.
>troops in Japan. However, in an e-mail message to his subordinates,
>the U.S. commander in Okinawa insulted the Okinawa magistrate and
>parliament. On June 29, another soldier of the U.S. air force
>sexually assaulted a Japanese girl in Kyatan of Okinawa.
>
>
>The NATO headed by the United States dropped a large number of
>depleted uranium bombs during the Kosovo war, subjecting peace-
>keeping soldiers as well as the local people to serious danger.
>The U.S. side claimed that one of the reasons for the withdrawal
>of U.S. troops from Kosovo is that "it would not let radiation
>hurt our boys." Latest reports say that the United States knew the
>dangers of depleted uranium bombs and where they were dropped, and
>that, when dividing up peacekeeping zones, it allocated the most
>seriously contaminated areas to allied forces. After the U.S. army
>entered Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo, it gave a boost to the sex
>industry in the two places. Over the past year, Bosnia-Herzegovina
>uncovered dozens of women trafficking cases, many of which were
>associated with the U.S. army. Most of the U.S. soldiers were
>involved in prostitution and some of them were even involved in
>selling women. In September 2000, the U.S. Army published a report
>of more than 600 pages, detailing all kinds of bad behaviors
>committed by the No.82 air-borne division of its First Army during
>their peace-keeping mission in Kosovo, admitting that the general
>atmosphere of the U.S. army in Kosovo is very inhumane.
>Available data indicate that in the Gulf War the United States
>dropped more than 940,000 depleted uranium bombs with a total
>weight of 320 tons onto Iraqi land, causing serious destruction to
>the environment of Iraq and the health of its people. The Ministry
>of Health of Iraq pointed out in a report that the number of
>cancer patients in Iraq increased dramatically after the Gulf War,
>from 6,555 in 1989 and 4,341 in 1991 to 10,931 in 1997. In the ten
>years since the end of the Gulf War, the incidence rate of
>leukemia, malicious tumors and other difficult and complicated
>cases in areas hit by depleted uranium bombs in southern Iraq was
>3.6 times higher than the national average and the proportion of
>women with miscarriage was ten times as high as in the past. On
>February 22, 2002, Emad Sa'doon, a medical expert with Basra
>University in southern Iraq, disclosed to the media that after
>many years of research the medical group led by him found that in
>the 1989-1999 period, the number of patients with blood cancer
>doubled and the number of women with breast cancer increased 102
>percent.
>
>
>The United States always flaunts the banner of "freedom of the
>press". Yet according to an Agence France-Presse report on
>February 21, 2002, the annual report of International Journalism
>Institute published on the same day pointed out that the way in
>which the U.S. government dealt with the media during the Afghan
>War and its attempt at suppressing freedom of speech by
>independent media were "the most amazing in 2001."
>In the United States, close to 100 companies manufacture and
>export considerable quantities of instruments of torture that are
>banned in international trade. They have set up sales networks
>overseas. In its February 26, 2001 report, Amnesty International
>said some 80 American companies were involved in the manufacture,
>marketing and export of instruments of torture, including electric-
>shock tools, shackles and handcuffs with saw-teeth. Many
>instruments of torture and police tools are high-tech products,
>which can cause serious harms to the human body. For instance,
>handcuffs,which would tear apart the flesh of the tortured if the
>victim slightly exerts himself, are very cruel, and so is a high-
>pressure rope for tying up a person. Although categorically
>prohibited by U.S. law, the Commerce Department of the United
>States has given official export licenses for exporting such tools.
>According to statistics, American companies have secured export
>licenses and sold tools of torture overseas valued at 97 million U.
>S. dollars since 1997 under the category of "crime control
>equipment." It is inconceivable that, while the U.S. State
>Department is talking about human rights, the U.S. Department of
>Commerce has given export licenses for products determined as
>instruments of torture in statutes of the U.S. government, said Dr.
>William Schulz, who conducted the investigation.
>The United States has also conducted irradiation experiments
>with the dead bodies of babies from overseas. The Daily Telegraph
>and the Observer of the United Kingdom disclosed in June of 2001
>that the United States has recently declassified some top-secret
>documents, which indicate that in the 1950s the United States
>carried out what was called "Project Sunshine" experiments. For
>these experiments, about 6,000 dead babies were obtained from
>overseas and cremated without permission of their parents. The
>ashes were sent to laboratories for irradiation studies.
>The U.S. government has until this day refused to sign the
>Basel Convention, which restricts the transfer of waste materials.
>It often transfers dangerous waste materials by different methods
>to developing countries, damaging the health of the people of
>other countries. The Associated Press reported on February 25,
>2002 that, according to an estimate by environmental protection
>organizations, as much as 50 percent to 80 percent of the
>electronic wastes collected by the United States in the name of
>recycling have been shipped to a number of countries in Asia for
>waste treatment, causing serious environmental and health problems
>to the local people.
>
>
>The United States has announced its withdrawal from the Kyoto
>Protocol, refusing to bear the responsibilities of improving the
>environment for human survival and bringing about negative impacts
>on environmental protection efforts in the world.
>The Third UN Conference Against Racism held in Durban of South
>African in September 2001 was an important gathering in the area
>of international human rights at the beginning of the new century.
>It attracted representatives from more than 190 countries, which
>reflected the burning desire of the international community to
>eliminate hatred accumulated over time and eradicate the remnants
>of racism through dialogue and cooperation. The United States,
>however, turned a deaf ear to the voices of the international
>community. Ignoring its international obligations, it asserted
>openly to boycott the conference before it was opened. Although
>the United States sent a low-level delegation to the conference as
>a result of prompting and persuasion by the United Nations, it
>took the lead in opposing discussing slave trade and colonial
>compensation, expressed opposition to putting Zionism on a par
>with racism, and walked out of the conference midway. Behaviors of
>the United States at the conference revealed its hypocrisy when it
>professes itself as "a world judge of human rights" and show how
>arrogant and isolated the hegemonic acts of the U.S. government
>are.
>For many years, the U.S. government has year after year
>published reports on human rights conditions in other countries in
>disregard of the opposition of many countries in the world,
>cooking up charges, twisting facts and censoring all countries
>except itself. It also publishes a report every year to make a so-
>called appraisal of anti-drug trafficking campaigns of 24
>countries including all Latin American countries. The United
>States deals with any country it deems "inefficient in cracking
>down on drug trafficking" with condemnation, sanctions,
>interference in the latter's internal affairs, or outright
>invasion.
>In 2001, without support from the majority of member countries,
>the United States was voted out of the United Nations Human Rights
>Commission and the International Narcotics Committee. This shows,
>from one aspect, that it is extremely unpopular for the United
>States to push double standards and unilateralism on such issues
>as human rights, crackdowns on drug trafficking, arms control and
>environmental protection. We urge the United States to change its
>ways, give up its hegemonic practice of creating confrontation and
>interfering in the internal affairs of others by exploiting the
>human rights issue, go with the tide of the times characterized by
>cooperation and dialogue in the area of human rights, and do more
>useful things for the progress and development of the human
>society. Enditem

[Storm]

http://bugler-john.50megs.com/PEARL%20HARBOR%20%20-JOHN%20W.%20BUGLER.pdf

The above site shows u that the U.S knew about Pearl Harbour way b4 hand, but needed it as an excuse to enter the war. Their Head of State at the time wanted to have the public behind him. So the only way this could be doen was to bait the Japanese to attack 1st. The U.S r prepared to sacrafice even their own citizens to further its own hidden agendas.

There r far more interesting articles out there about Pearl Harbour, so look it up fellas.

[Storm]

Elements within the CIA may have deliberately targeted the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, without NATO approval, because it was serving as a rebroadcast station for the Yugoslavian army.
The London Observer and Copenhagen’s Politiken reported that, according to senior U.S. and European military sources, NATO knew very well where the Chinese embassy was located and listed it as a "strictly prohibited target" at the beginning of the war. The Observer stated that the CIA and its British equivalent, M16, had been listening to communications from the Chinese embassy routinely since it moved to its new site in 1996. The Chinese embassy was taken off the prohibited target list after NATO detected it sending Yugoslavian army signals to forces in the field. "Nearly everyone involved in NATO air operations (radio) signals command knows that the bombing was deliberate," said Jens Holsoe of Politiken, lead investigative reporter on the news team reporting on the story.
President Clinton called the bombing a "tragic mistake" and said it was the result of a mix-up. NATO claimed that they were using old maps and got the address wrong. However, Observer reporters quoted a Naples-based flight controller who said the NATO maps that were used during the campaign had correctly identified the Chinese embassy.
A French Ministry of Defense report stated that the flight that targeted the Chinese embassy was not under NATO command, but rather an independent U.S. bombing raid. In July 1999, CIA director George Tenet testified before Congress that of the 900 sites struck by NATO during the bombing campaign, the only one targeted by the CIA was the Chinese embassy.
In response to the claims by the New York Times and the Washington Post of having investigated this story and having found no substantiation, Seth Ackerman states that within the CIA there are strong anti-China elements. The Counter-Proliferation Division within the CIA is known for its opposition to Clinton’s China policy. The CIA’s regular targeting office—the Central Targeting Support Staff—was not consulted about the mission. Instead the Counter-Proliferation Division forwarded the target information to U.S. forces.
The CIA was outraged not only because the Chinese were helping the Serbs by serving as a rebroadcast station, but also because they believed that Yugoslavia had sold the wreckage of the downed U.S. F-117 stealth fighter to the Chinese, thereby improving China’s ability to develop a stealth-proof radar system.
According to the New York Times April 17, 2000 edition, the CIA still claims that the bombing was an accident, but cannot explain "why so many mistakes occurred."
The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Porter Goss, said he was confident that the strike was not deliberate, but added, "unless some people are lying to me."
The bombing of the Chinese embassy was described by Chinese Ambassador Li Zhaozing as "a horrifying atrocity, something rarely seen in the entire history of the worst of diplomacy."

[Ivan]

strangely enough, up till now, no "pro-Americans" have posted anything in this thread ;)

[BLAUGRANA]

Funny that, how Gore Vidal mentioned just the past 40 years which just happens to be the period of time AFTER the administration he was in.

In regards to his statement about Americans not being taught Geography, I was offended. I studied Geography and know my fair share of locations around the world, probably as many as others around the world.

Anyway, our country is not perfect and many Americans know this. George Bush lost the popular election in our country, but become President due to his slim margin of victory in electoral votes. I personally don't like George Bush and did not vote for him.

While many of our actions overseas are debatable, they are not all bad and some good that benefits others does come out of them. I would prefer that we were not the world's policeman.

It's funny how you guys all just rip on the United States and don't bother to consider your own governments or countries. In fact, some of you (who I don't need to mention) don't even have the courage to state where you are from. I just hope that none of the countries where you are from ever need our help.

[Storm]

I did it once and was called Aussie/Malasian 3rd World Maggot. Shame u bring up geography because the sad and pathetic abuser was from the U.S and he couldn't even get the locations right in the above abuse.

True the systems of Government in the rest of the World may not be perfect, but at least they r no exploitive, manipulative, self-
centered or destructive and filled with hiddent agendas.

Don't worry we don't need your help, because I really can't see how helpful firnedly fire mishaps or high civilian casualties at a wedding and a whole lot more can help other countries. We also don't need to have our troops of civilians experimented on by the U.S's latest technology.

[BLAUGRANA]

Originally posted by Storm
I did it once and was called Aussie/Malasian 3rd World Maggot. Shame u bring up geography because the sad and pathetic abuser was from the U.S and he couldn't even get the locations right in the above abuse.

True the systems of Government in the rest of the World may not be perfect, but at least they r no exploitive, manipulative, self-
centered or destructive and filled with hiddent agendas.

Don't worry we don't need your help, because I really can't see how helpful firnedly fire mishaps or high civilian casualties at a wedding and a whole lot more can help other countries. We also don't need to have our troops of civilians experimented on by the U.S's latest technology.

You're missing my point. I know who you're referring to about the geography thing and one bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch Storm, so don't go lumping me together with someone else just because i'm an American.

About other governments, many if not all of them would be doing the same thing or similar things as our government if they were in the same position of power. The British Empire, the Roman Empire, the Soviet Union (sorry Ygor and Sergei) all demonstrated similar characteristics and in many respects were worse than the so-called "US Empire".

The Afghan wedding incident was very unfortunate indeed. I won't even comment on it further.

[Storm]

I understand that the policies and stances adopted by the Government never reflect the complete views of the populace. However, people judge citizens from other countries based on the ones they have come across. Many who have met U.S citizens have come across the type, we have one in this forum. To further complicate matters, your Government's actions have not endeared u to the rest of the World.

I don't disagree with u, a lot of Governments in the position of the U.S would likely abuse their power. The fact still stands that it is not right and the purpose of the Government is to better society. What is more disturbing is when your Government keeps trying to pass of it's dubious actions as honourable and for the good of the World. When as demonstrated by some of the other posts on this thread it isn't and the sole purpose was to further its own selfish, exploitive and manipulative hidden agendas. Worse of all is then we have the majority of U.S inhabitants blinded by all this and start bragging because their Government announces that they r doing good for the rest of the World. Some go even further and believe the rest of the World owe the U.S something for all the so called "good" that they have done.

[BLAUGRANA]

Fair enough.

[rimaldiniKG]

Very good topic and replies Storm....


"It's funny how you guys all just rip on the United States and don't bother to consider your own governments or countries. "


Our government don't interfere in any of the affairs of other countries like do U.S.A...........That's why!

[BLAUGRANA]

Originally posted by rimaldiniKG
Very good topic and replies Storm....


"It's funny how you guys all just rip on the United States and don't bother to consider your own governments or countries. "


Our government don't interfere in any of the affairs of other countries like do U.S.A...........That's why!

No, you're country is innocent. Rockets are never launched from Lebanon into Israel. That's not to mention how you're people fought with each other. If you're country is so great, how come no one ever wants to visit much less live there??

[Ivan]

Originally posted by AZULGRANA


No, you're country is innocent. Rockets are never launched from American war planes into Iraq. That's not to mention how you're people fought with each other.



As for visiting Lebanon - I'd love to visit that country. I heard that Beirut is a beatiful city with a great night life. They call it the Paris of the middle east.

Rimaldini - would a Yugoslav citizen require a visa to come visit Lebanon?

[Storm]

AZULGRANA relax man, Lebanon was actually a very famous tourist location prior to the troubles in the Middle East. I won't go into it here because I will most likely be called anti-semetic, which is normally the case when u voice any criticism of Israel or its citizens. It is like the best self protection mechanisim, if anyone has even the slightest criticism of a Israel or a person from Israel, instantly they can be labeled anti-semetic and then everyone is against u and dispersions r instantly cast about u as a person also u r in league with the Nazis etc. In short Lebanon was a extremely beautiful place prior to the war in the Middle East involving Israel.

Even now it is a beautiful place with plenty of things to see and do, it is just in the remoter regions that there is strife and danger. The only things outsiders most likely hear about Lebanon is all the negative stuff, such as the ongoing disturbances, but that is all in the remote areas so Lebanon is defintly a place worth seeing.

[BLAUGRANA]

Originally posted by Storm
AZULGRANA relax man, Lebanon was actually a very famous tourist location prior to the troubles in the Middle East. I won't go into it here because I will most likely be called anti-semetic, which is normally the case when u voice any criticism of Israel or its citizens. It is like the best self protection mechanisim, if anyone has even the slightest criticism of a Israel or a person from Israel, instantly they can be labeled anti-semetic and then everyone is against u and dispersions r instantly cast about u as a person also u r in league with the Nazis etc. In short Lebanon was a extremely beautiful place prior to the war in the Middle East involving Israel.

Even now it is a beautiful place with plenty of things to see and do, it is just in the remoter regions that there is strife and danger. The only things outsiders most likely hear about Lebanon is all the negative stuff, such as the ongoing disturbances, but that is all in the remote areas so Lebanon is defintly a place worth seeing.

I know it's actually a beautiful place and that it used to a very popular vacation destination. Is it now though? I don't think so, but am unsure. Either way, as Rimaldini so eloquently posts i'm sure any americans wouldn't be welcome. I'd love to visit Iraq and Iran too. Not my #1 choices, but if someone offered a free trip I'd take it.

That's one thing I wish the Israelis and Palestinians could see, the economic advantages of peace. With the warm climate and beaches, not to mention the religious locations, they could really have a great tourist industry.

[Storm]

Iran is sensationaly, my friend worked there for a few years and loved it. Lebanon is still quite a tourist attraction too, I saw it on a program recently that discussed Lebanon. Besides my friends just came back from a holiday there and said it was a vibrant and beautiful place. So definitly must go!!!

The U.S Government is hated, but I feel their citizens r not provided they do not have an huge ego and a overwhelming superiority complex just because u carry a U.S passport. If u conduct yourself in a correct manner, u will be welcome in most parts of the World regardless of race/nationality. It is only certain people that would really struggle when in foreign lands, a prime example being a member of this forum.

[rimaldiniKG]

"No, you're country is innocent. Rockets are never launched from Lebanon into Israel. That's not to mention how you're people fought with each other. If you're country is so great, how come no one ever wants to visit much less live there??"

Did you forget that Israel is still occupying a part of South Lebanon????????Should we shut up and do nothing while Israel is taking our territory??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And i didn't say that our government is innocent ,i just said,we don't interfere in matters relating to other countries.....

Who told u that no one ever wants to visit much less live here??? The number of tourists in Lebanon is increasing year after year.....!!!! It's true that Beyrouth is Paris of MEA, all the world know that!

"Rimaldini - would a Yugoslav citizen require a visa to come visit Lebanon?"
For sure Ivan, and you will be very welcome here....Lebanon is the most country in MEA that give facilities to tourists:)

"I know it's actually a beautiful place and that it used to a very popular vacation destination. Is it now though? I don't think so, but am unsure. "
For sure it is......

"Either way, as Rimaldini so eloquently posts i'm sure any americans wouldn't be welcome. "
Azulgrana-The point that i want you to understand is that we are talking about governments not about citizens, and i will assure to you that if you or any other american come to Lebanon you will be very welcome.....As for me, i have an american friend (his name is Scott) ......See, we don't hate citizens!!!!!!Just governments....!
But i'd like to add that the exception on this is Israel.....Any israeli is not welcome at all in Lebanon...and i beleive that if you lived here in the time of war and saw what Israel did with us and still do with palestinians, u will for sure be with our side......
I really wish that u can understand that ...And don't forget that we are just discussing.......
Rimaldini

[Storm]

Well said rimaldiniKG, just wish there were more reasonable people in this forum, that way all threads can be like this thread. Different opinions, yet very civil and purely sharing of views with no one reosrting to verbal abuse.

[Porca Troia]

why respond to hypocrisy. gore vidal is not here to respond to those statements. even so i will debate this for practice.
first of all, he portrays all administrations since WWII as the reason why this country is hated and the present one is the devil's seed. as it is pointed out in the article he served in the kennedy admin. this makes him no better than the people he is accusing. he is a hypocrite. what kennedy was a saint?!!???

i would love to know if you can name any country that is not driven by ulterior motives. the US's motives are always outlined, whether we like it or not. all eyes are on the US. all the global media and govts are looking at what the US will do next. we allow freedom of speech. this allows for this country to view all points. that's what this country is all about - different people, different cultures, different ideas, different faiths - although most of the americans, or residing in it, that post on this board support the govt, there are many in the media and in society at large that are opposed to what the govt does. they voice their concern, even right after 9.11 many accused the US govt for orchestrating this disaster. that's fine, to each his own.

so go ahead and point all the faults in our system. nevertheless, your system has loopholes the size of the grand canyon. you think corruption is rampant in the US? it's a way of life in many parts of this planet.
so go ahead and name a country that you would consider has better policies, way of life, and opportunity than the US.

[rimaldiniKG]

"so go ahead and name a country that you would consider has better policies, way of life, and opportunity than the US."

If you are talking about internal life, i agree with you that the U.S. is better but if you are talking about foreign policies, i think that we can not make a comparison at this point, just because the U.S. dominate on all the decisions of the U.N.....That's why, no country can do what U.S. do...
The point that i'm talking abt is that the U.S. always interfere in matters relating to other countries.....!!!!!!!!! And always it helps countries which are in his side and intersests.....

Ok, i will agree with you and say that U.S. is the best country but can you answer these facts and questions:
Why the most hated gov. in the world (on the foreign popular side) is the U.S.?
Why too many people are very enjoyed when they burn the american flag??????????
Please always remember that we are talking about governments and not about american citizens!...
RimaldiniKG

[rimaldiniKG]

Did you hear the latest news??????????????????

Israel killed, in a new genocide added to its full history, 15 palestinians between them 7 children the youngest is 3 months and the oldest is 5 years old........
Bush described this as a cruel attack!!!!!!!!!So strange!. If this was committed by Palestinians it will not be cruel but terrorist!!!!!!

Hammas promised that they will take revenge...I wish so!.....

[Storm]

The Zionist movement is getting way out of hand, especially because they know the U.S will not go against them. Since the U.S won't go against them, many or the other Western nations also overlook this Zionist genocide that takes place. It is ridculous the double standards adopted by the U.S in the Middle East. I and many others r sick and tired of Jewish people milking the Holocaust dry also defaming their critics by labeling them anti-semetic, when very often the individual(s) crticism is extremely valid/applicable.

I actually consider the Jews to be one of the most racist collective of people. In a way they r motivated purely by self-interests and believe the lives of others is worth far less if even worth anything at all, than the lives of their people. I have experienced racism from Jewish people 1st hand. Jews actually really dislike Asians, I never knew that until I went to Uni and found that a lot of the racist graffiti was created by Jewish students. I later found the reason for this is they r taught at home since young that Asians will be there main rivals in the World, whether it be in school or workplace. The fact they never make any effort to intergrate and make a conscious effort to keep exploiting everything/everyone and at the same time keeping all their $$$ within their own community. They care little about anyone but themselves and would never contribute to society other than their own little closed communities.

[Porca Troia]

i disagree with you on your point about the most hated country. if you look at africa and asia, you will note that most of the hatred is directed to colonial powers.
foreign policies have mainly to do with trade. the US is the biggest trader with the rest of the world. big corporations are victimized because they hire cheap labor outside the US and administrations are victimized for granting China most favored nation. to combat most countries we have differences with we impose sanctions - iraq and cuba- , those who are poor - afghanistan and somalia - we bomb the shit out of.
this does sound cruel, but any nation that has the status the US has would only do worse.

[Storm]

I'm sorry but what u say is not right and not to mention unproven. U cannot excuse the U.S for their selfish, exploitive and extremely manipulative actions throughout time by saying others would do worse in the same position. That is the lamest way to excuse your nation's ongoing misdeeds. I would have thought such a lame excuse would come from a gun loving, redneck Hill Billy like a certain member of this forum.

[Storm]

I'll remember that excuse the next time I do something bad!!!

Judge: "Storm, r u trying to tell this court that u murdered, tortured, robbed and raped all those people because u believe others in your position would certainly have done worst."

Storm: "Certainly your honour, I mean I was the strongest there and it was only fair I attacked those innocent people in their own house because others that r stronger than them would've done it sooner or later. Since I was in the position to do so and I was the 1st one to break in, I feel it was my right to do as I wished due to my superior position than those around me at the time. Besides I figured they may have a gun in their house and one day they may attack me, so it was better I attack 1st. In terms of the girl, same thing, I thought she was hiding something and would not submit to an inspection, so I had to rape her just in case I got attacked and also because others in my position would've done the same.

Thanks Porca it is certainly the greatest and most legitimate defence for commiting evil deeds I've heard for a long time. The whole World should empty their jails then because I'm sure all those criminals all thought others would've done the crimes they commited if they were in their postition. U can't right off all the evil deeds that have been accomplished by your Government with a pathetic excuse like that. What offends/annoys more people is the fact that your Government refuses to admit to these evil actions/motives and instead constantly masquerades behind false pretenses and is always claiming it's actions r for the good of the World. I would have more respect for the U.S and its policies if it came out in the open, and stated yes, we r in the Middle East for oil and to exploit u bastards and there is nothing u can do about it because we have the military power to back us up in our drive to fulfill our selfish desires/greed. That is what the U.S Government should do, that way they will at least be respected for their moral courage, but then again it is very hard to talk about moral courage when your current Head of State is a AWOL/Coward!!!!!!

[Porca Troia]

maybe i should "dumb down" my posts a notch or two so you can actually understand what i'm writing.
i am not coming up with excuses for US policies. simply put, all countries engage in similar activities. the US stands out because it is the main focus of all countries. nobody talks about how japan extorts its neighbors (malaysian rainforest eradication as an example) to promote their products and gadgets. nobody talks about the ulterior motives the USSR had when invading afghanistan. nobody talks about the British modern day colonization of Zimbabwe by bribing the politicians for the land (now it is biting them in the arse) nobody talks about the French deploying nuclear weapons in the South Pacific. nobody talks about how Ghaddafi sent some of his ministers a week prior to 9.11 to the West Indies to grant the countries foreign aid for stadiums, reportedly because he wanted to ensure that his offshore bank accounts remained anonymous.