Louis Van Gaal [Archive] - Page 2 - Soccer Fans Network Forums

Bier

12-07-2002, 03:02 AM

Well ... as I see it Van Gaal this season is prove so far that the whole situation around the Camp Nou has developped into a doubtable direction since he was forced to step back from his first charge at the club. I was convinced ever since Rivaldo had to bring on his famous chileno against Valencia to make us participate in the Champions League that there was only one man who could help us out of our miseries, and that is Van Gaal. Van Gaal is a proved coach with Ajax and Barça and is without doubt able to form a Champions Team, but our results in the league this year don't back these theories obviously, honestly our domestic achievements so far are a disgrace to our club and some of the worst experience I walk through since being a Barçafan. But if there's one person whom I don't consider responsible, it has to be Louis Van Gaal. I mean sometimes you don't have to question the coach but the team and the luck to find the answer to questions for reasons of teams crisis. In our case it's particularely the luck we seem overflowed with in the Champions League, we are totaly missing domestically, I mean our players play with heartbleed, fightspirit, grace and intelegence, but somehow always manage to waste their chances, our keepers make strange moves from time to time and our opponents are not seldom excessively lucky in front of our goal. Luck or unluck however is nothing to make a coach responsible of and I'm confident when the offensive machinery get's in a role, and Marc Overmars his first team spot we'll see a lot of better days. And Van Gaal is the right man to run this offensive machinery tactically and a person who knows about the strenghs of Overmars. Another point is the question of what are we expacting after two years of rather less glory? Van Gaal is no magician, he can't change a team that more or less struggled to reach it's aim of at least reaching the Champions League again for two years into a teams that wins em all with ease withing 6 months, nobody can I reckon and if so he's just lucky. But luck is nowadays not on our side so we need to put our bucks on time.
Give Van Gaal 2 or 3 years and he'll built us a breathtaking team of young guns ready to conquer Europe.
Show Van Gaal the door and our club will end up in an chaos as it has never seen it before.

BTW: Anyone saw Zenden play left back against Germany some weeks ago? Hell I wish we never sold him. He was definately man of the match IMO. Tremendous defending and respectable offensive actions and running the wing all the game.
Plus: he must have worked on his crosses. :D

Strike

12-07-2002, 09:12 AM

Yes Bier I saw Zenden, but I know him for a long time ago
as he played at PSV. I'll too wished we never sold him cause
he can play all at left-midfield. And I also saw VDV with the
pass at Hasselbaink.I'm a VDV admirer as you a De la Pena
admirer.

soccer fanatic

12-07-2002, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Bier

Give Van Gaal 2 or 3 years and he'll built us a breathtaking team of young guns ready to conquer Europe.
Show Van Gaal the door and our club will end up in an chaos as it has never seen it before.

In an interview he said he wanted to retire when he turns 55 or 54, I think he is 51 now, so he should hurry if he wants that.

BTW: Anyone saw Zenden play left back against Germany some weeks ago? Hell I wish we never sold him. He was definately man of the match IMO. Tremendous defending and respectable offensive actions and running the wing all the game.
Plus: he must have worked on his crosses. :D

No, Zenden wasn`t man of the match, Stam was, both my opinion and of all Dutch viewers.

funky6

12-07-2002, 12:06 PM

I disagree. Until someone can reasonably prove that Barca's problems are LVG's fault or can provide a realistic and better alternative, i'm sticking by him.

That's right.(about the alternative).If LVG leaves or gets kicked in the middle of the season the most probably is that a guy like CR will be in charge(or someone else ex Barça player and team's member at the present).There's any worst scenario than this coming nightmare IMO(as we saw the previous two seasons)

Barça's problems are not only VG''s fault,but it's his TOO.It's a very complicated issue.The teams moral is below zero and apart from 2-3 players noone can take the situation in his shoulders for a club like Barça.The pressure from the Catalan press and of the most difficult crowd in the world is unbelievable.It gets worse when you think that the Club's "leader":rolleyes: is living in his own world.

If i understand right what Bier said,i think it's impossible for the Catalan fans especially to give LVG such a long time.Besides if he has to built such a team he will definitely need some reinforcements cause the current squad and some B youngsters are not capable to respond in a project like that.

LVG must understand that Barça has always been a club identified with the individual talent of some players.We never were a robot team like 95'S Ajax and there is no Rivaldo or Figo like his first time in charge.

I can't imagine what can happen in Mestalla,Bernabeu,San Siro,Riazor etc..

Bassat for prezident NOW!Otherwise GOD HELP US!

We're in a crisis that Barça hasn't faced since the situation after the '86 lost final...I've tried to believe that nothing really bad is going to happen since the beginning of the season but i just can't anymore.

(i've just realized i have no idea to come up with for this situation..)

hollowi

12-07-2002, 01:57 PM

Bier's posting is one of the greatest I've read the whole time I've been here. Maybe it's because I agree to him about van Gaal, maybe not. I think van Gaal is one of the best coaches there is, if not the best. I think that we made the right decision saying good bye to Rivaldo and taking LVG back because football is played by a team, not by a group of individuals, although their skills bring the goals in the last point, but no-one scores from own box, you'll need somebody to bring the ball up front for you. Really nobody can blame the coach (though that is what many do) if the players are making stupid mistakes and not using their chances to score

funky6: We may not have a certain #1 player but we have plenty of players who can take control of the field. This is great IMO because you don't want your team to be dependant over one player, who is only a man.

Barca may be targeting Chivu, Schneider, etc defenders in January. I would certainly like to see a defender that can repair the mistake of selling both Sergi and Coco. Actually that wasn't the mistake, not buying a new one is. We need the LB as much as the goalie. You don't sell your goalies and put the striker between bars, do ya? Something I definitely don't want to see is Puyol in center because De Boer is N/A and Gabri as the right full back.

I hope that the fans who want changes aimed their anger to Gaspart who is clearly incompetent and let LVG do his job, he's the best we can get.

Van Gaal has admitted that Barça players might not be good enough to win the games which is good, I think. The players may now look in the mirror and wonder have they been playing well enough to win. As tactician, LVG is one of the best there is (remember Leverkusen still?), though he should be a bit more open towards such as JRR.

Keep hope alive and Louis as coach, but for God's sake who will let the fans out of their misery by putting Gaspart aside.

hollowi

12-07-2002, 01:59 PM

By the way, sorry about the total lack of order in my post, I just came from The Two Towers lineparty and I haven't slept at all after wednesday-thursday night. :yawn:

funky6

12-07-2002, 02:41 PM

Ofcourse a team must not be depended on one player only but every team needs a leader for the hard times(i don't miss Rivaldo at all ofcourse) and i can't think of anyone else for this role except from Lucho who is not playing at the time.

And you are right that everyone should target this Gapart looser,but LVG has made his mistakes too(i count Bayer's tactics in them) and the Catalan press is starting a new war against him.

I don't think he will be given much time simply because the word patience after these years(and generally always)is an unknown word for Barça.Considering there is noone who would like to be the next coach he is our last hope we like it or not but i think JG will not be afraid to kick him out.This is a really complicated issue.

I don't think that Barça will buy any of these players in January.

The current situation in Barça is really hard to predict what will happen but the worst things haven't come yet with this as**ole who is leading the Club

Bier

12-08-2002, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by hollowi
Bier's posting is one of the greatest I've read the whole time I've been here. Maybe it's because I agree to him about van Gaal, maybe not. I think van Gaal is one of the best coaches there is, if not the best. I think that we made the right decision saying good bye to Rivaldo and taking LVG back because football is played by a team, not by a group of individuals, although their skills bring the goals in the last point, but no-one scores from own box, you'll need somebody to bring the ball up front for you. Really nobody can blame the coach (though that is what many do) if the players are making stupid mistakes and not using their chances to score

Thanks, I'm really feeling honoured and see we have the same views on the latest Camp Nou hapenings. :)

Originally posted by Strike
Yes Bier I saw Zenden, but I know him for a long time ago
as he played at PSV. I'll too wished we never sold him cause
he can play all at left-midfield. And I also saw VDV with the
pass at Hasselbaink.I'm a VDV admirer as you a De la Pena
admirer.
I saw VDV several times on dutch coverage at "Eurogoals" and have to admit he's really the De La Pena kind of a player, pure genius :star: ... he even scores quite often, not?

Originally posted by soccer fanatic
No, Zenden wasn`t man of the match, Stam was, both my opinion and of all Dutch viewers.
That's why I said: in my opinion ;)

Originally posted by funky6
Bassat for prezident NOW!Otherwise GOD HELP US!

Yeah, I seriously think you got a point there. I mean nothing is wrong with the person of Gaspart, I'll always keep him in my heart as the most passionate futbal club president I've ever seen and I totally admire the passion he offers for the club, but I fear he's leading Barça into the wrong direction. :( Nunez was way less passionate but made the club rich, and now, after 3 years Gaspart ... where are all our bucks gone?

BLAUGRANA

12-08-2002, 06:44 AM

Great posts guys. This is the sort of discussion I love. Unfortunately, i'm tired and off to bed soon. I'll join in tomorrow night, unless I see the girlfriend.

echobelly

12-08-2002, 07:09 AM

is it possible to bring back cruyff to Nou Camp?

I think he may bring some luck to us!
;)

Olesen10

12-08-2002, 01:41 PM

Well I don't think Cruyff is an option. He's come with some dumb sayings about other coaches and the team...

soccer fanatic

12-08-2002, 07:56 PM

Cruijff is no option, no way in hell he would accept of becoming head coach of Barca again.

Perhaps Koeman is an option, it is early, but he is an extremely good manager, who can bring back some steady times and positivism, as well as results. He will be better with press and is very good in handling the bigger players.

A manager who brings back rest and is very stressfree under all cercumstances should be the best option. Stepping in as headcoach isn`t the most rewarding job right now.

I still think Van Gaal should be given more time, but it is time for a warning, even though players can be hold partially responsible too. In the end the manager is responsible and if he can`t get these players too work and play at their best perhaps it is time too face he isn`t the manger who can inspire and handle this group of players.

funky6

12-08-2002, 08:31 PM

So if Cruijff(i hope it's right):D wanted to come back there would be no problem with his health?He had a problem with his heart some years ago and he is an old man after all.

Besides,if he and Gaspart meet in a street..i wouldn't like to be there:D.

What i would like to see is Gaspart leaving,LVG staying and doing something good for two seasons with some necessary reinforcements in the squad(+sell a couple of players if we can find who would buy Geovanni or Christanvall 4 example) and then Koeman as the head coach.Unless if Barça can find a great coach to replace Van Gaal immediately(and not jokes like Ericsson).This means a lot of money and i don't think we can afford at the time.

I would really like to see Ronald in our bench.Noone can inspire players,fans,press etc in Barcelona more than him at the time and this is as important as technical abilities(he seems to be great in this too).

soccer fanatic

12-08-2002, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by funky6
So if Cruijff(i hope it's right):D wanted to come back there would be no problem with his health?He had a problem with his heart some years ago and he is an old man after all.

I meant the opposite, that he wouldn`t accept, exactly because of what you said, health issues. He isn`t that old though, not as old as Robson.

Besides,if he and Gaspart meet in a street..i wouldn't like to be there:D.

:D:D He would be outnumbered, Cruijff would have been supported by the fans. accept one guy here who doesn`t seem to be a big fan of him. But that is what you get if you are an outspoken person like Cruijff, people who know him well all say he is a genius on football area and has a very clear vision on all other subjects, he is unreachable for normal people, although he never went crazy on his succes, always stayed himself.

What i would like to see is Gaspart leaving,LVG staying and doing something good for two seasons with some necessary reinforcements in the squad(+sell a couple of players if we can find who would buy Geovanni or Christanvall 4 example) and then Koeman as the head coach.Unless if Barça can find a great coach to replace Van Gaal immediately(and not jokes like Ericsson).This means a lot of money and i don't think we can afford at the time.

I agree. Van gaal needs time, but has too straight up his act soon, this is beyond Barca standard, even for a team that is rebuilding. If he does and is given time, he will bring back succes.

Question is if the local fans can wait and accept the current results. I doubt it. You can`t expect Van Gaal to make a Mercedes out of a Lada in only a month.

For Barca and Koeman it would be better if he stayed longer with Ajax too gain more experience, but don`t wait too long, he said he wants too retire when he`s 50.

I would really like to see Ronald in our bench.Noone can inspire players,fans,press etc in Barcelona more than him at the time and this is as important as technical abilities(he seems to be great in this too).

May sound weird as an Ajax supporter who is delighted with the work he has done so far here, but I can`t wait for him too join Barca too. :)

I know Barca is his destimy and not Ajax, I will guarantee you he will bring succes and trophees to Barca. :)

BLAUGRANA

12-09-2002, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic
.

Perhaps Koeman is an option, it is early, but he is an extremely good manager, who can bring back some steady times and positivism, as well as results. He will be better with press and is very good in handling the bigger players.

He was a Barca player who was part of the dream team, so he already has a bit of headstart. HOWEVER, he is Dutch and could easily find himself in a Van Gaal (Catalan for a bad situation for the Barca manager).

barça

12-09-2002, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

He was a Barca player who was part of the dream team, so he already has a bit of headstart. HOWEVER, he is Dutch and could easily find himself in a Van Gaal (Catalan for a bad situation for the Barca manager).

Every day, I learn a little more Catalan. That's pretty funny.

In our house, whenever someone gets in a bad mood, we would say something like "Don't be Van Gaal", my kids call him Van Maal. The Canal + soccer report, paints him with a brick for a face.

All in a tortured good fun kind of way (I hope that makes sense) We love the team and we keep our heads up and hope that the coach and the pllayers do as well.

I am not a Van Gaalista, never have been and never will be, but that does not mean that I don't support him, I accept him and try to give him the benefit of the doubt, (after all I have not coached past a High School team, last I checked the man had won titles). The root of the problem in Barcelona is not Van Gaal, nor is it, who plays here or there, but the fact that Gaspart has not been a good president. Gaspart probably loves the club more than anyone else but he gets too emotionally involved and reacts and decides erroneously. Examples are when he leaves his seat in the middle of a game, or blames Figo for the fans behavior and these examples are just image issues, I won't go into coaching or player decisions.

soccer fanatic

12-09-2002, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

He was a Barca player who was part of the dream team, so he already has a bit of headstart. HOWEVER, he is Dutch and could easily find himself in a Van Gaal (Catalan for a bad situation for the Barca manager).

He played for Barca? :D

I don`t think he will get in a similar position, koeman is loved more in Barcelona and has a better approach to press, players, fans and board of directors.

relejado

12-09-2002, 04:44 PM

what about hitzfeld as new coach? i dont think that he will renew his current contract with bayern munich.

soccer fanatic

12-09-2002, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by relejado
what about hitzfeld as new coach? i dont think that he will renew his current contract with bayern munich.

Barca is a club with a name too hold high, he is a good coach, but is he able to let a team play attractive football and get a lot of points? I can`t say I enjoy watching Bayern.

Perhaps a Spanish coach would be best. Are there any good Spamish coaches available?
Or perhaps Topmueller or Rainieri. (Chelsea)

funky6

12-09-2002, 05:18 PM

I don't think they're available but i would like to see someone like Benitez or Fernandez in Barça.

I don't think Topmueller would be able to stand the pressure of being the Barça coach at the time and i hate Rainnieri.It's difficult to find an experienced coach,whose style fits to Barça's(that's why nobody wants guys like Erikson or Capello)

The question is if anyone of all of them would like to sit in this electric chair...

soccer fanatic

12-09-2002, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by funky6
I don't think they're available but i would like to see someone like Benitez or Fernandez in Barça.

I don't think Topmueller would be able to stand the pressure of being the Barça coach at the time and i hate Rainnieri.It's difficult to find an experienced coach,whose style fits to Barça's(that's why nobody wants guys like Erikson or Capello)

The question is if anyone of all of them would like to sit in this electric chair...

You could be right. If you consider the options for another coach, you can`t deny that good options are limited. Hard too find a good coach who fits Barca and like you said are man enough to go for it.

Nice use of words BTW. :)

BLAUGRANA

12-10-2002, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

Barca is a club with a name too hold high, he is a good coach, but is he able to let a team play attractive football and get a lot of points? I can`t say I enjoy watching Bayern.

I personally think that Hitzfield would be taking a step back by leaving Bayern for Barca. Bayern are still in a good position despite being out of the CL and with Ballack, Deisler and Hargreaves they have some real talent for the future. If i'm Hitfield, i'm not leaving Bayern for any other managerial job in football. The only way I would leave Bayern if i'm Hitzfield is if the Kaiser (and i'm not talkin' about Wilhelm here either), Hoeness, etc get too involved with my job.

BLAUGRANA

12-10-2002, 04:53 AM

Originally posted by funky6

I don't think Topmueller would be able to stand the pressure of being the Barça coach at the time

The question is if anyone of all of them would like to sit in this electric chair...

If LVG goes in the near future and Koeman isn't ready or interested (for whatever reason), then I think that we should go for a Topmuelleresque manager. Someone who isn't too big a name. In fact, i'd even consider someone who's not very well known at all. It'd be a gamble, but then they probably wouldn't have as much too lose (in terms of reputation anyway).

As it is though, the only guys i'd realistically consider for the job are Koeman or Bianchi.

relejado

12-10-2002, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

Barca is a club with a name too hold high, he is a good coach, but is he able to let a team play attractive football and get a lot of points? I can`t say I enjoy watching Bayern.
)

i agree, bayern really doesn't play a very attractiv football. but i don't think that it would be a stepback for hitzfeld. it would be a tough challenge for him, but interesting. toppmüller or ranieri are not strong enough to stand the pressure at barca. benitez on the other hand is too tough, IMO, to guide players like kluivert,saviola and others. these guys are artists, not mineworkers...
under these circumstances LVG is really the best choice right now...unfortrunately, I don't know bianchi that much, so i can't say if he's best choice or not. let's stick to van gaal and pray..;)

azul, great lucho-pic...i would post it in my appartement right away !

funky6

12-10-2002, 09:37 AM

azul, great lucho-pic...i would post it in my appartement right away

:silly::silly::D:D

I just saw it.The collages from the Boixos website are all great.The most funny of them are the ones for the Madrid players.I still remember that poster from Stuart Little with Casillias:silly: and the MAR(i)CA cover.

soccer fanatic

12-10-2002, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

I personally think that Hitzfield would be taking a step back by leaving Bayern for Barca. Bayern are still in a good position despite being out of the CL and with Ballack, Deisler and Hargreaves they have some real talent for the future. If i'm Hitfield, i'm not leaving Bayern for any other managerial job in football. The only way I would leave Bayern if i'm Hitzfield is if the Kaiser (and i'm not talkin' about Wilhelm here either), Hoeness, etc get too involved with my job.

Its not about taking a step back or not , it is about the difference between Bayernand Barca, although I must say Barca is a step up from Bayern, both on fanbase and on league and squad quality. If Hitzfeld thought that Beckenbauer shouldn`t get too involved he would already have left. :)

I saw Bayern play a lot and am not convinced that Hitzfeld is capable of letting them play attractive football, what in my eyes is a must for Barca. That is what I meant with "Barca has a name too hold high." Hitzfeld isn`t a coach who fits Barca, but ofcourse he is a good manager. I`m BTW also not yet convinced on the subject Hargreaves being a great talent. He is good, but has too perform better to earn more status.

If you think about it, options for a succeeder are limited, best option is perhaps Koeman.

great sig by the way forgot to mention that earlier. :)
Enrique is one of my fave Barca players.

funky6

12-10-2002, 06:59 PM

I`m BTW also not yet convinced on the subject Hargreaves being a great talent. He is good, but has too perform better to earn more status.

Me neither.The one day he made his debut with Bayern and before nobody realizes it he is a Bayern starter and begins with the English NT in Japan:shocked:.He reminds me of Motta though the last one doesn't play for Seleçao:rolleyes:

Azul, i really like Topmueller,he is a fresh name in the European football map and i wouldn't like his carreer 2 be destroyed because of Barça and it's the same for unexperienced coaches who are not from Spain.Imagine them having to deal with Sport,MD(daily), fans who "boo" from the first half in Camp Nou etc....it wouldn't work IMO.

BLAUGRANA

12-11-2002, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by funky6

:silly::silly::D:D

I just saw it.The collages from the Boixos website are all great.The most funny of them are the ones for the Madrid players.I still remember that poster from Stuart Little with Casillias:silly: and the MAR(i)CA cover.

I like the one of Roberto Carlos as Mini Me.

BLAUGRANA

12-11-2002, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

Its not about taking a step back or not , it is about the difference between Bayernand Barca, although I must say Barca is a step up from Bayern, both on fanbase and on league and squad quality. If Hitzfeld thought that Beckenbauer shouldn`t get too involved he would already have left. :)

I saw Bayern play a lot and am not convinced that Hitzfeld is capable of letting them play attractive football, what in my eyes is a must for Barca. That is what I meant with "Barca has a name too hold high." Hitzfeld isn`t a coach who fits Barca, but ofcourse he is a good manager. I`m BTW also not yet convinced on the subject Hargreaves being a great talent. He is good, but has too perform better to earn more status.

If you think about it, options for a succeeder are limited, best option is perhaps Koeman.

great sig by the way forgot to mention that earlier. :)
Enrique is one of my fave Barca players.

I was trying to say that he's at a bigger club essentially. Bayern have a more impressive trophy case, have as good a squad, have had as many great players and IMO are bigger than Barca. Don't get me wrong, I love Barca. I think the clubs are close.

soccer fanatic

12-11-2002, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

I was trying to say that he's at a bigger club essentially. Bayern have a more impressive trophy case, have as good a squad, have had as many great players and IMO are bigger than Barca. Don't get me wrong, I love Barca. I think the clubs are close.

Bayern has some great quality, but can`t be compared to Barca. it is not only about prizes, it is also about club identity, fanbase league they are active in. Bundesliga is good but not as good as the Spanish league.

But ofcourse you are free too think that.

funky6

12-11-2002, 11:14 AM

was trying to say that he's at a bigger club essentially. Bayern have a more impressive trophy case, have as good a squad, have had as many great players and IMO are bigger than Barca. Don't get me wrong, I love Barca. I think the clubs are close.

I know it might be boring(even for me) defending Barça all the time but how can i not answer that?I hope you're joking Azul.Seriously.What's the bigger trophy case Bayern has?

They got 16 championships(as Barça)and 10 cups(24 for Barça) in a 20 times easier league and cup.Both clubs have all Euro trophies like Ajax and Juve but Barça have more C.W.C. than Bayern and more Uefa cups i think.They just have 3 more E.C.than Barça(that deserved atleast one more).I'm bored of ppl underestimating Barça because of this feking cup.

Barça's trophy collection in general is one of the best in Europe.

About players?Samitier,Kubala,Stoickov,Lineker,Schuster,Romario,Ronaldo,Rivaldo,Figo,Guardiola,Maradona,Cr uijff,Neeskens,Laudrup,Zamora,Suarez,Eulogio Martinez,Bakero,Zubizzareta,Koeman and many others.I don't think any team in this world can be compared with Barçá in this issue

Any other comparison between international(perhaps domestic too)fanbase,stadium,annual badget etc is funny.

soccer fanatic

12-11-2002, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by funky6
[B
About players?Samitier,Kubala,Stoickov,Lineker,Schuster,Romario,Ronaldo,Rivaldo,Figo,Guardiola,Maradona,Cr uijff,Neeskens,Laudrup,Zamora,Suarez,Eulogio Martinez,Bakero,Zubizzareta,Koeman and many others.I don't think any team in this world can be compared with Barçá in this issue
[/B]

Ahum. *cough* Ajax. *cough* :)

Barca has a good history with fantastic players, but ofcourse they are not the only team who can say that, I refuse to name a list of Ajax players.

funky6

12-11-2002, 12:03 PM

Ok i'm wrong maybe but compared to Bayern we definitely are superior in this issue.

soccer fanatic

12-11-2002, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by funky6
Ok i'm wrong maybe but compared to Bayern we definitely are superior in this issue.

I agree. :) Its just a wrong comparison between the two teams, Barca is on a totally different level. Bayern absolutely has good history too and have had great results, but it is comparing two completely different things to eachother.

Just look at the stadiums, worldwide fanbase, playing style, budget, etc.

funky6

12-11-2002, 12:39 PM

I'm happy we avoided another Ajax vs Barça discussion.:D

BTW great game against Roma last night.Cool to see the old Ajax is coming back gradually.Where all these young diamonds coming from?:shocked:.

The Rule

12-11-2002, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by funky6

.

About players?Samitier,Kubala,Stoickov,Lineker,Schuster,Romario,Ronaldo,Rivaldo,Figo,Guardiola,Maradona,Cr uijff,Neeskens,Laudrup,Zamora,Suarez,Eulogio Martinez,Bakero,Zubizzareta,Koeman and many others.I don't think any team in this world can be compared with Barçá in this issue

Real Madrid.....unfortunetly i don't have a week to name off all the great plyers they've had

VivaBarcaInter

12-11-2002, 03:00 PM

Even their list doesn't match up to ours.

No-one's list does. Even not listing the HUGE line of great players to play for Barca, all I would need to say is Cruyff and Maradona!!! The best ever European and the best ever period!

funky6

12-11-2002, 03:05 PM

Rule:

I just answered to Azul who said that Bayern has had as many good players as Barça.

It just took me a minute.I guess you''ll need 30 seconds to do so.Take a week off,concentrate and think who to write.:D.

Juan

12-11-2002, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by VivaBarcaInter
Even their list doesn't match up to ours.

No-one's list does. Even not listing the HUGE line of great players to play for Barca, all I would need to say is Cruyff and Maradona!!! The best ever European and the best ever period!

Yet Diego did pretty much nothing in a Barça shirt...

And, if you consider what they did with Barça, neither of them comes close to the great Ladislao "Laszi" Kubala.

But, looking at history, Barça has had a thing for signing the top players, at least until Florentino was voted president at Madrid. Kinda makes you think, huh?

soccer fanatic

12-11-2002, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by funky6
I'm happy we avoided another Ajax vs Barça discussion.:D

:D
Me too actually. :)

BTW great game against Roma last night.Cool to see the old Ajax is coming back gradually.Where all these young diamonds coming from?:shocked:. \

I don`t know. :) We just scout them from all over the world and give the special Ajax youth trainings. They grow up with the Ajax system in there hearts and heads and a lot of attention also goes too the basic skills, How to cotroll and pass the ball.

I`m not going to make this a long post since I`m at the Barca forum not on the Ajax forum. :)

VivaBarcaInter

12-11-2002, 04:35 PM

You're right Juan. That was one (of quite a few!) underachieving Barca teams. Diego himself performed pretty good that first season until that Bilbao hatchetman nearly ended his career. Add that to the multitude of personal and club problems he had at the time (some his own fault, some other peoples), and he was never going to reach the heights his talent could have. But I'm still very pround that Maradona, my favourite player of all time, wore the Barca shirt.

I think that second thing is to do with the Catalan/Barca mixed culture. All the great Barca teams, and plenty of the underacheiving ones, had a star that the fans would look to as their hero. Like a focal point of the team, a guy that the team would literally crumble without him there. Plus, the management seemed to want people to consider Barca a world power, especially in the time where they were the last European giant not to have won the European Cup.

funky6

12-11-2002, 05:23 PM

Plus, the management seemed to want people to consider Barca a world power, especially in the time where they were the last European giant not to have won the European Cup.

You seem to have a point there.I'll never understand how they managed to lose that cursed final in Sevilla against Steaua Bucarest:rolleyes: with Bernd Schuster in the team...(we deserved to lose in the other two finals)

But I'm still very pround that Maradona, my favourite player of all time, wore the Barca shirt.

Nothing to add...

relejado

12-11-2002, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Juan

Yet Diego did pretty much nothing in a Barça shirt...

And, if you consider what they did with Barça, neither of them comes close to the great Ladislao "Laszi" Kubala.

agreed about diego

Paba

12-11-2002, 05:38 PM

If Capello decides to leave Italy, I feel that he would be interested in Barca. Also, if Inter sign Mancini and give Cuper the boot, a thing that doesnt look very likely at the moment, the Argentinean could be heading for Barca.

I hope that Barcelona sign Ramon Diaz, Daniel Passarella or Ronald Koeman though. Maybe even give Cryuff another chance?

barça

12-11-2002, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Paba
If Capello decides to leave Italy, I feel that he would be interested in Barca. Also, if Inter sign Mancini and give Cuper the boot, a thing that doesnt look very likely at the moment, the Argentinean could be heading for Barca.

I hope that Barcelona sign Ramon Diaz, Daniel Passarella or Ronald Koeman though. Maybe even give Cryuff another chance?

Cuper or Capello? I wonder which would cause me to shoot myself first? God I hope that does not happen. I will get a banner outside the mini stadi clamoring to bring back Rexach.

I have a feeling, we are going to see a new president before we see a change in coach.

BLAUGRANA

12-12-2002, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by barça

Cuper or Capello? I wonder which would cause me to shoot myself first? God I hope that does not happen. I will get a banner outside the mini stadi clamoring to bring back Rexach.

I have a feeling, we are going to see a new president before we see a change in coach.

I don't know. I think Cuper could get the job done, but he's not a favourite of mine (and i'm an Inter fan too). I don't want Capello either.

I think we'll see a change in manager before we do president, unfortunately.

BLAUGRANA

12-12-2002, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

Just look at the stadiums, worldwide fanbase, playing style, budget, etc.

Not to pick on you Fanatic, but to respond to all of you. Having a great stadium for me is a nice thing, but not a must. Look at the old bitch Juve. They play in the Stadio delle SHITTY! Yet i'd take their trophy case over ours any day.

Fanbase is very important. Barca definately have the nod here. Bayern are a very popular club though.

Playing style isn't that important to me. If a club can win with style, great. However for me it's winning that counts, period.

Budget? Bayern's financial situation is 10 times that of Barca's at present. Bayern are rich and dont' have nearly the debt we do. Besides, I'd be proud to have purchased Michael Ballack for only 7 million pounds as opposed to Overmars for 20 million pounds. No offense to Overmars, just an example. Geovanne would have been a better example.

In terms of trophies, I still give Bayern the nod. The Champion's League crowns put them ahead. Their most recent one being very impressive due to the expanded CL. And as for the Bundesliga, I rate it right up there with the EPL, La Liga and the Serie A. Right now, I consider La Liga to be the best league. However, IMO the leagues always sort of ebb and flow over time as to which is the best. Besides, with the amounts of money spent by teams in the EPL, Serie A and La Liga, their teams should be better.

Look, I consider Bayern to be on par with Barca. Not necessarily better. The whole point was about Hitzfield and what's best for him. He's got a good thing going at Bayern and considering the clubs' recent respective histories, he'd due better staying with Bayern.

BLAUGRANA

12-12-2002, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by funky6
Rule:

I just answered to Azul who said that Bayern has had as many good players as Barça.

Bayern have had their greats too though. The Kaiser Franz Beckenbauer, Gerd Muller, Lother Matheuss, Jurgen Klinnsmann, Uli Hoeness, Olly Kahn to name but a few. Not the most stylish or popular players ever, but some of the greats none the less.

The Rule

12-12-2002, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

Not to pick on you Fanatic, but to respond to all of you. Having a great stadium for me is a nice thing, but not a must. Look at the old bitch Juve. They play in the Stadio delle SHITTY! Yet i'd take their trophy case over ours any day.

Fanbase is very important. Barca definately have the nod here. Bayern are a very popular club though.

Playing style isn't that important to me. If a club can win with style, great. However for me it's winning that counts, period.

Budget? Bayern's financial situation is 10 times that of Barca's at present. Bayern are rich and dont' have nearly the debt we do. Besides, I'd be proud to have purchased Michael Ballack for only 7 million pounds as opposed to Overmars for 20 million pounds. No offense to Overmars, just an example. Geovanne would have been a better example.

In terms of trophies, I still give Bayern the nod. The Champion's League crowns put them ahead. Their most recent one being very impressive due to the expanded CL. And as for the Bundesliga, I rate it right up there with the EPL, La Liga and the Serie A. Right now, I consider La Liga to be the best league. However, IMO the leagues always sort of ebb and flow over time as to which is the best. Besides, with the amounts of money spent by teams in the EPL, Serie A and La Liga, their teams should be better.

Look, I consider Bayern to be on par with Barca. Not necessarily better. The whole point was about Hitzfield and what's best for him. He's got a good thing going at Bayern and considering the clubs' recent respective histories, he'd due better staying with Bayern.

This is an excellent post,obviously very well thought out,Munich are a huge club,one of the four biggest in Europe in my opinion(with Madrid,Barca and Juventus),it's true that they've never had the transfer power of Barca,but it's not because of a lack of Financial stroke,it's because of the league they play in and the climate aswell,the Bundesliga is at best Europe's fourth league after La Liga, the EPL and Seria A, the top players from Spain,italy, and England don't want to go their because the league is inferior to their own,the top French and Dutch players would rather play in the biggest leagues as well, and the south americans would as well.plus who wants to run around in temperatures below freezing.What Bayern have accomplished, for me anyway,outranks what Barca and Juve have done,because unlike those two,they've never spent huge amounts of money on players and they still win a lot of trophys.The CL winning team was assembled for a fraction of what Barca and Juve have spent on their current teams,yet Barca last one the CL 10 years ago and Juventus 5 years ago(i think).Barca have spent incredible amounts of money in recent years on players who weren't worth it,Azul mentioned Overmars, he's an excellent player but £20 million was a ridiculous amount to spent on him,players like Dani,Petit and Alfonso(as well as many others) were brought in for large amounts and done very little for the club.i think Barce need to get to take Munichs example and have a Coach,who looks after the team and a General Manager who deals with the technical end of things,including transfers,it doesn't neccesarily have to be someone with a "huge name in footbal",more someone who is a good business man.They would be able to control the financial side of things and make sure that the books balance.Van Gaal seems to be incapable of doing this as Barca's financial situation shows,i don't know if its in his contract but he seems to have a certain amount of freedom when it comes to transfers,Munichs system seems to be that Hitzfeld puts forward a list of players,say three of four for each position,and then the GM looks to see which is the best buy economically.

Hitzfeld is far better off in Germany than he would be at Barca(i know it was me who mentioned him as a possible manager for barca)At Barca nothing is ever good enough,look at Robson,he did a good job in his year in charge and then gets "moved upstairs" to bring in Van Gaal.Hitzfeld is a clever man,and he knows that if things didn't go right straight away he'd be out on his ear,and it would leave a black mark on his career,a career which to date has been excellent.Looking for a new manager for Barca is a task which should be carefully considered,track record is not the only thing that should be brought into it,age should be a big factor,with Van Gaal retiring in 3 years(if he lasts that long),Barca will again need a new man. La Liga experience is another thing,they should have gone for Benitez or Irureta instead,these are men who lead teams to La Liga success on a quarter of the budget Van Gaal has to work with.I think Capello would have been a better choice than Van Gaal,look what he did in his year at Real,turned an average team into Champions for less money than Barca spent that same summer.Capello has a great record every where he has been,the only concern would be how long more he wants to stay in the game.

Funky6 as far as Barca having the best European player ever,i'd disagree with you,Cruyff was amazing,in the top five ever,but Beckenbauer, in my opinion, was a better(and more successful)player.Munich had possibly the greatest natural goalscorer off all time as well in Mueller

oh and last point,Fanatic,i've been to the olympic stadium in Munich and it can hold it's own against any in Europe,it's an amazing structure and while the atmosphere might not be as intense as the Nou Camp, the San Siro and the Bernebeu it's still pretty good

funky6

12-12-2002, 05:25 PM

Funky6 as far as Barca having the best European player ever,i'd disagree with you,Cruyff was amazing,in the top five ever,but Beckenbauer, in my opinion, was a better(and more successful)player.Munich had possibly the greatest natural goalscorer off all time as well in Mueller

I don't remember saying this cause i don't think there is something like"the best european player"/"the biggest Club"(emotionally it does though :D) and things like that.

When we talk about a Club's players we have to consider who was a big player generally and who served the club great.Thinking like that Kubala or Koeman were definitely bigger FOR Barça than Maradona(or Cruijff maybe too)but i'm still proud there are pictures of them in a Barça jersey.Beckenbauer was huge but you can't compare him top Cruijff cause they were two totally different players.

Azul

Ofcourse i respect Bayern(who doesn't) and i know these huge players were playing for Bayern.It's just that they were all together in some great squads Bayern had at times but Barça
always tried to have the best in the world(especially afte the 70's but before too) and managed to make it true.

soccer fanatic

12-12-2002, 06:22 PM

Olesen10

12-12-2002, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

A stadium is part of the identity of the club. I`m not refering to size, because we all know that doesn`t matterm, but to possible atmosphere. Nou Camp is much more intense and "warm" than the stadium of Bayern. Bayern stadium is unique, but common, it is cold. I`m not downtalking it architecture, but the possible atmosphere. I seriously think atmosphere is an important part of football, one stadium gives more opportunity than the other.

I don`t know if it is a must, perhaps not for fans far away from the stadium who don`t get a chance to visit their team a lot, but season ticket holders do care I think. It is a secundair quality point for a club, first is the team.

A good stadium isn't a must, but it sure does come in handy with about 70 thousand Barca supporters or so, when big games are played. I've been at Nou Camp, and even without any crowd, I could feel how it would be to stand in the middle of a huge crowd cheering for Barca. It is an huge experience, and some day, I will go to see a Barca - RM match! I promise not to throw bottles after Figo:silly:

funky6

12-12-2002, 10:40 PM

I promise not to throw bottles after Figo:silly:

Chicken:D

Well,i would prefer to keep the bottle and drink it home too i guess.:D

BLAUGRANA

12-13-2002, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by The Rule

This is an excellent post,obviously very well thought out

You must be referring to your post. Seriously, your post is very good. About mine, thanks. However, it wasn't really thought it. It was just a response that I felt needed a little more.

Originally posted by The Rule

oh and last point,Fanatic,i've been to the olympic stadium in Munich and it can hold it's own against any in Europe,it's an amazing structure and while the atmosphere might not be as intense as the Nou Camp, the San Siro and the Bernebeu it's still pretty good

While i've never seen a match at the Olympic Stadium, I have been there twice. In terms of architecture, I think it looks pretty cool considering it's probably 30 years old or more. I don't like stadiums with the track around the pitch though. I like it when the fans are right up to the pitch. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. I think Bayern are possibly getting a new stadium soon.

As for the arguement that a club's stadium is important, it is. However, IMO some of you are putting way too much an emphasis on this. The Nou Camp is a special ground, but i'd much rather we played in a stadium like Munich's and had their CL titles rather than the Nou Camp.

hollowi

12-13-2002, 07:30 AM

Well I think that stadium means a lot. I think we are considered to have the biggest home advance in CL, or maybe with Galatasaray (still we did win at Ali Samiyen and they didn't at Nou Camp). We have the biggest stadium in Europe and I wouldn't trade it away. If you think of our miserable La Liga curriculum this year, we are still unbeaten at Nou Camp. Only four teams have been able to hold such record, excluding such as Valencia and Deportivo La Coruña.

funky6

12-13-2002, 11:33 AM

http://www.soccerstadiums.homestead.com/barcelona.html

Check out the pics.Especially the first one.

yks_barca

12-13-2002, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

However, IMO some of you are putting way too much an emphasis on this. The Nou Camp is a special ground, but i'd much rather we played in a stadium like Munich's and had their CL titles rather than the Nou Camp.

:shocked:

relejado

12-13-2002, 12:49 PM

soccer fanatic

12-13-2002, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by The Rule

Funky6 as far as Barca having the best European player ever,i'd disagree with you,Cruyff was amazing,in the top five ever,but Beckenbauer, in my opinion, was a better(and more successful)player.

I can`t agree, although there are hard to compare, Cruijff was better. He wasn`t only technically advanced, his vision was amazing, he revolutionised football, not alone ofcouse, but still.
What they won isn`t a point to judge on, especially with NT you just need luck where you are born, not many people doubt the Dutch Nt of 1974 was better than the German team, in the end victory counts, but I wouldn`t trade in playing style for the trophy.

oh and last point,Fanatic,i've been to the olympic stadium in Munich and it can hold it's own against any in Europe,it's an amazing structure and while the atmosphere might not be as intense as the Nou Camp, the San Siro and the Bernebeu it's still pretty good

I disagree completely on this, but I guess it is just a matter of preference, I can`t imagine even mentioning the Bayern stadium in a comparison to Nou Camp. I will respect your opinion, with with huge astonishment.

soccer fanatic

12-13-2002, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by relejado

really ?? IMO, titles are not everything. the pride of having the most beautifull and biggest (at least in europe) stadium is much more worth. this pride is one of the differences between cules and fans of other big teams in europe.

I agree, trophees are nice and always wanted, but everything begins with a good home base. Barca has that, Nou Camp is surreal, so beautiful.

soccer fanatic

12-13-2002, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

As for the arguement that a club's stadium is important, it is. However, IMO some of you are putting way too much an emphasis on this. The Nou Camp is a special ground, but i'd much rather we played in a stadium like Munich's and had their CL titles rather than the Nou Camp.

I`m not the biggest Barca fanatic, but this is kind off offensive. You really would like to trade in Nou Camp for Munich`s trophees? Don`t you see Barca is so much better and so much more worthy of being proud off.

I never expected this post from you Azulgrana, thought you were really Barca maniac, but how can you be that and are willing to throw one of the most beautiful stadiums away for some trophees. It doesn`t all start or end with trophees you know.

Olesen10

12-13-2002, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

As for the arguement that a club's stadium is important, it is. However, IMO some of you are putting way too much an emphasis on this. The Nou Camp is a special ground, but i'd much rather we played in a stadium like Munich's and had their CL titles rather than the Nou Camp.

I would also have Munichs CL-titles of course :D, but I don't think Barca would ever have grown so big if Nou Camp wasn't there. Sure, we only have one CL-title, but the Nou Camp is "feared" by every team in the whole world partly beacuse of the size, atmosphere, history and crowd, and I don't think any other club in Europe have a stadium like that.
And I know who almost eveybody of my friends would cheer for, if Barca and Bayern ever would play CL-match. And I don't only mean folks from the Barca forum at the WSB. :)
And some of them are even RM-fans...

J R R

12-13-2002, 04:37 PM

i wouldnt trade camp nou its a beautiful stadium with a great
atmosphere i know loads of people who if they could visit any ground it would be Barca's
we might not have as many trophies as some other clubs but they are not everythig
it is an amazing feeling to watch a game at camp nou

funky6

12-13-2002, 06:18 PM

Am i the only one here who thinks Barça's trophee collection is great?

soccer fanatic

12-13-2002, 06:39 PM

Ofcourse not, but it can always be bigger right?

VivaBarcaInter

12-13-2002, 07:32 PM

Of course. But our trophy list stands on it's own.

Plus, this debate doesn't wash with me. As huge a club as Bayern are, they simply don't compare to Barca. And it's as much about the off field stuff as the on field.

Sure they've won more European Cups. So have Nottingham Forest. No1 cares about them. (well, except the poster on WSB that keeps telling everyone how great they are!) Winning European Cups alone doesn't equal greatness. It's a factor, winning the Euro Cup. but only one of several. And us having UEFA's offical biggest AND best stadium in Europe is a big one for me. I'm immensely proud that every football fan on Earth knows about the Nou Camp and wishes to go there.

Plus, when you look at the overall picture, Our list of legends, huge popularity, infinitely stronger financial pulling power, more domestic successes against tougher opposition, political and social importance, we are in a class of our own.

Olesen10

12-13-2002, 09:19 PM

Well said!

BLAUGRANA

12-15-2002, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by VivaBarcaInter

Plus, this debate doesn't wash with me. As huge a club as Bayern are, they simply don't compare to Barca. And it's as much about the off field stuff as the on field.

They do compare on the field and in footballing terms. Off the field, they don't compare with Barca.

Originally posted by VivaBarcaInter

Sure they've won more European Cups. So have Nottingham Forest. No1 cares about them. (well, except the poster on WSB that keeps telling everyone how great they are!) Winning European Cups alone doesn't equal greatness. It's a factor, winning the Euro Cup. but only one of several. And us having UEFA's offical biggest AND best stadium in Europe is a big one for me. I'm immensely proud that every football fan on Earth knows about the Nou Camp and wishes to go there.

Comparing Nottingham Forest and Bayern Munich is derisory! Yes, winning European Cups doesn't equal greatness. Then again, neither does being one of the greatest symbols of Catalan nationalism. Look, Bayern's trophy case is just as impressive as Bayern's whether you lot like it or not.

As for the stadium arguement, it's great we have such a great footballing ground. All I said was, i'd rather we had a greater trophy case. Give me Real Madrid's trophy case over the Nou Camp any day.

Originally posted by VivaBarcaInter

Plus, when you look at the overall picture, Our list of legends, huge popularity, infinitely stronger financial pulling power, more domestic successes against tougher opposition, political and social importance, we are in a class of our own.

Agreed, we are in a class of our own in terms of our club. HOWEVER, our list of legends can easily be disputed by Bayern's or Real's just to name two.

In terms of popularity, we are more popular than Bayern and that's great. Bayern is still a very popular club though and should be proud.

As for "financial pulling power", you'd have to be more specific. In terms of the current financial states of the respective clubs, Bayern are in much better shape than we are. Also, IMO rating "financial pulling power" isn't very wise in a sense. It's like saying that we've consistently had more money (specifically in terms of transfer funds, which is what I think you're talking about) than Bayern throughout the club's respective histories. That to me is almost an embarassing thing considering they've won more CL titles and their trophy list is just as impressive as ours is. I don't think it's something to be proud of to say "we've always had more money than they have" when they have had as many great players and have as impressive a trophy case. Also, look at how they've spent their money over time on players. Consider the recent future for example. Take the Ballack transfer compared to ANYONE we've signed in a long time. Value for money, his transfer was better than Rivaldo's IMO.

We've had tougher domestive opposition? Recently yes, but not necessarily over the two clubs' histories. That's another arrogant and short-sighted statement. Besides, if our domestic competition is so tough, how come that hasn't toughened up us in Europe and we haven't won the CL recently like Bayern?

Political and social importance? Yes, we do have the edge. That's a double-edged sword though IMO. I like the what the club represents, yet it can be a burden. It's great we field home-grown talent that the hometown fans can identify with. Yet, I hate it when they get overly critical of a player just because he's not Catalan. I don't consider that a good thing.

BLAUGRANA

12-15-2002, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

I`m not the biggest Barca fanatic, but this is kind off offensive. You really would like to trade in Nou Camp for Munich`s trophees? Don`t you see Barca is so much better and so much more worthy of being proud off.

I never expected this post from you Azulgrana, thought you were really Barca maniac, but how can you be that and are willing to throw one of the most beautiful stadiums away for some trophees. It doesn`t all start or end with trophees you know.

Look mate, I'm as much a Barca fan as anyone here. The fact that I can think critically about the club and for the club is a good thing. I never said I preferred Bayern over Barca. All I ever said was that Hitzfield was better off staying with Bayern than he would be in joining Barca. Hell, he'd have joined Man Utd if he wanted to leave Bayern.

You totally misunderstood my statement about the Nou Camp and Bayern's trophy case. I meant that I would prefer to be a club that's been more successful with a lesser stadium than the Nou Camp as opposed to a club with the Nou Camp as your stadium but with a lesser trophy case. While Barca are a special club, the FACT of the matter is that we're in the BUSINESS of football and it's about winning championships and NOT how nice or great your stadium is.

I would never trade what Barca has for what Bayern has. Barca is truly the most unique football club in the World. However, football isn't all about being unique and special and different.

BLAUGRANA

12-15-2002, 03:06 AM

Here's another example of what i'm trying to illustrate to you all. Here's the table of top European clubs playing consecutively in Europe:

1. Barcelona 1955-2002 -47 years*
2. Benfica 1960-2001 -41
3. Anderlecht 1964-2002 -38
4. Porto 1974-2002 -28
5. PSV 1974-2002 -28
6. Juventus 1963-1991 -28
7. Sporting 1977-2002 -25
8. Ajax 1966-1990 -24

A feat to be proud of indeed. Yet, wouldn't you all rather like Ajax and in 8th place on this list but with more CL titles? It's great to be in European competitions, but IMO it's better to win them.

funky6

12-15-2002, 12:07 PM

It's great to be in European competitions, but IMO it's better to win them.

We do win them.We got 10 feking Euro trophies and we've been to nearly 20 finales man!We got all of them and sorry but i don't think that four old C.W.C. is a mickey mouse achievement.I'm also proud that Barça won three Euro trophies in the late 50's while that b@st4rd was doing everything he wanted in Spain.

I'll say it again.I'm not going to continue this arguement because Schuster couldn't score a feking penalty in Sevilla and make the feking cups too,like Manu,Benfica,Inter and Juve(whose trophy case you would like-for the 26 champions i guess).

About not winning the trophy recently i think we will definitely in the next one or two years or maybe this year and i prefer that crazy,anarchy football of Barça(not this year) that can reach stratospheric level than those boring Krauts.Unfortunately as it's well known:"Good football wins fans and good defences win trophys"

Camp Nou:This is the reason I and millions of others became Barça fans since kids.This arena one of the most immense memories i have from Barça in the back of my mind.Seeing Barça splitting any opponent in four pieces in this huge field is something i would never change.This ground(i'm not talking about the 5 zones for fans) is the main reason for this royal style of Barça's play that no others teams could reach.I wouldn't change it for any trophee case in the world,especially for one that has the same trophies.

With this conversation i've started to feel like an Aston Villa or Club Brugge fan.

soccer fanatic

12-15-2002, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

Look mate, I'm as much a Barca fan as anyone here. The fact that I can think critically about the club and for the club is a good thing. I never said I preferred Bayern over Barca. All I ever said was that Hitzfield was better off staying with Bayern than he would be in joining Barca. Hell, he'd have joined Man Utd if he wanted to leave Bayern.

I have no problems with you thinking criticly about Barca. It is a good thing, I would never argue with that.

Hitzfeld being better of at Bayern is also based on opinion, so I won`t argue with it.

You totally misunderstood my statement about the Nou Camp and Bayern's trophy case. I meant that I would prefer to be a club that's been more successful with a lesser stadium than the Nou Camp as opposed to a club with the Nou Camp as your stadium but with a lesser trophy case. While Barca are a special club, the FACT of the matter is that we're in the BUSINESS of football and it's about winning championships and NOT how nice or great your stadium is.

A stadium is partly your identity, you mentioned you would trade it in for Bayerns trophees, I was mad at that. You can`t give away your identity in exchange for some trophees.

I don`t know about the business part, ofcourse football is business, but it is more than that, it is also entertainment for millions and millions of people all over the world. I know to compete you need too lead a club like a business, but as a fan I don`t see Barca as a business.
No need in telling me the stadium isn`t everything.

I would never trade what Barca has for what Bayern has. Barca is truly the most unique football club in the World. However, football isn't all about being unique and special and different. [/B]

It is about entertainment, too give entertainment, the club has too be run like a business. Being special and unique can make a person more proud one a team, but logically every team is unique and special, it is all about which team fits you. For me those are Barca, Arsenal and ofcourse Ajax.

BLAUGRANA

12-15-2002, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

I have no problems with you thinking criticly about Barca. It is a good thing, I would never argue with that.

Hitzfeld being better of at Bayern is also based on opinion, so I won`t argue with it.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

A stadium is partly your identity, you mentioned you would trade it in for Bayerns trophees, I was mad at that. You can`t give away your identity in exchange for some trophees.

You still misunderstand me on this one. I meant that if we had throughout our history (and right now) a lesser stadium like the Olympic stadium but had won more trophies, I would have preferred that. It's much easier to make improvements to a stadium than it is a trophy case. And i'll just come out and say it right now, WINNING TROPHIES IS FOR ME MORE IMPORTANT THAN HAVING A GREAT STADIUM!

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

I don`t know about the business part, ofcourse football is business, but it is more than that, it is also entertainment for millions and millions of people all over the world. I know to compete you need too lead a club like a business, but as a fan I don`t see Barca as a business.

While I see Barca as more of a club, they are a business too. Take away the financial aspects of any club and they could cease to exist altogether. Also, I wasn't directing the business aspect of the arguement towards you.

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

Being special and unique can make a person more proud one a team, but logically every team is unique and special, it is all about which team fits you.

Exactly. Very well said. Well, everything but that bit about you liking the Arsehole. :sick: :D The thing is, I feel as though Bayern has been slagged altogether way too much in this discussion. Unless you're a Real Madrid fan, you'd better watch who you're slagging.

soccer fanatic

12-15-2002, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

You still misunderstand me on this one. I meant that if we had throughout our history (and right now) a lesser stadium like the Olympic stadium but had won more trophies, I would have preferred that. It's much easier to make improvements to a stadium than it is a trophy case. And i'll just come out and say it right now, WINNING TROPHIES IS FOR ME MORE IMPORTANT THAN HAVING A GREAT STADIUM!

I don`t know, I think love for a club is bigger if you get sucked in the matches by a great ambiance in the stadium. Would your love for the club be this intense, if they played in a stadium with no ambiance at all? I think the last setence is a comparison which is hard too judge, important for me is also how they are won. You leave that out here, let me make a comparison for you, you choose:

Option 1: 1 EC1 with beautiful attractive football in a beautifiul atmospheric stadium.
Option 2: 4 EC1 in a cold stadium with no atmosphere and lousy counter football. (No offence too Bayern (:angel:)
Think about it that the stadium (and atmosphere) counts for competition too. :D

While I see Barca as more of a club, they are a business too. Take away the financial aspects of any club and they could cease to exist altogether. Also, I wasn't directing the business aspect of the arguement towards you.

That is what I said, but as a fan you are interested in attractive football and being entertained right?

Exactly. Very well said. Well, everything but that bit about you liking the Arsehole. :sick: :D The thing is, I feel as though Bayern has been slagged altogether way too much in this discussion.

Really hurts coming from an Inter fan. :D

Well you have too see it in perspective, in comparison with Barca they come out bad, but if you compare them too, I don`t know, RBC Roosendaal they come out a lot better. :D
Seriously, ofcourse Bayern is a team of great accomplishments, but they are just not the team I would like too watch. If other people enjoy it, great, I`m very happy for them. Just different approaches on football perhaps.

Unless you're a Real Madrid fan, you'd better watch who you're slagging.

I don`t get it.

BLAUGRANA

12-15-2002, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

I don`t know, I think love for a club is bigger if you get sucked in the matches by a great ambiance in the stadium. Would your love for the club be this intense, if they played in a stadium with no ambiance at all?

You must mean that monstrosity that is the Amsterdam Arena. :D How many pitches have they had to lay since it was built?

Everything else in the club's history still being equal, yes. Well that is to say that it'd be pretty close. Anyway, I can't think of many stadia that don't have some sort of ambiance at all. BTW fanatic, have you ever been to the Nou Camp for a match or even otherwise?

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

I think the last setence is a comparison which is hard too judge, important for me is also how they are won. You leave that out here, let me make a comparison for you, you choose:

Option 1: 1 EC1 with beautiful attractive football in a beautifiul atmospheric stadium.
Option 2: 4 EC1 in a cold stadium with no atmosphere and lousy counter football. (No offence too Bayern (:angel:)
Think about it that the stadium (and atmosphere) counts for competition too. :D

I never said that it didn't. There is a bit of a problem with your comparison though. It would never be a cold stadium in Barcelona. The weather is almost always nice there. Seriously though, a lesser stadium than the Nou Camp could very well still be a great stadium.

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

That is what I said, but as a fan you are interested in attractive football and being entertained right?

Of course, but i'd rather play less attractive football and win trophies rather than play attractive football and win nothing (as a general rule of thumb).

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

Well you have too see it in perspective, in comparison with Barca they come out bad, but if you compare them too, I don`t know, RBC Roosendaal they come out a lot better. :D
Seriously, ofcourse Bayern is a team of great accomplishments, but they are just not the team I would like too watch. If other people enjoy it, great, I`m very happy for them. Just different approaches on football perhaps.

I too would prefer to watch Barca. Entertaining play for me doesn't dictate how great the club is though. We just agree to disagree I guess. However, i'd like to ask one question. What club do you think is the greatest club ever (and I don't mean your favourite club)?

Originally posted by soccer fanatic

I don`t get it.

This wasn't necessarily directed at you. I was just saying that while Barca fans could reasonably slag off plenty of other clubs, there are some that they should be careful of slagging. Bayern being one of them. I was also saying that IMO the only club's fans who could get away with slagging off other clubs are Real Madrid's.

soccer fanatic

12-15-2002, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

You must mean that monstrosity that is the Amsterdam Arena. :D How many pitches have they had to lay since it was built?

:D:D:D:D.
Cheap shot. :D
Who said I liked the Amsterdam Arena???
Around twenty, or was that the amount of chances Ajax created against Inter? :D

Everything else in the club's history still being equal, yes. Well that is to say that it'd be pretty close. Anyway, I can't think of many stadia that don't have some sort of ambiance at all. BTW fanatic, have you ever been to the Nou Camp for a match or even otherwise?

I saw a lot of matches of Bayern, on TV though, but it never got a real ambiance, too cold. No tempurature jokes please, thank you. :)

I never visited the Nou Camp.
I did hear Barcelona is a beautiful city, better than Madrid. :)

I never said that it didn't. There is a bit of a problem with your comparison though. It would never be a cold stadium in Barcelona. The weather is almost always nice there. Seriously though, a lesser stadium than the Nou Camp could very well still be a great stadium.

Yes it would be the structure makes the stadium more open for ambiance, the structure of for example the stadium of Bayern doesn`t do that. Feeling happy in a stadium makes the atmosphere better, although a team should perform well. :(

Last line is correct, but like you say it yourself, it would be less.

Of course, but i'd rather play less attractive football and win trophies rather than play attractive football and win nothing (as a general rule of thumb).

As a season ticket holdr too? Could you watch over 30 matches, including cup matches, too a your team playing like Liverpool? (Again no offence.] Trophees are nice when you win them, but in the end they are only great if you can say: "and we earned them by playing the best football". IMO, the best football is always attractive. S Liverpool for example can win 5 prizes in a year, great, but that doesn`t mean they played the best football.

That is what you get if you are an Ajax fan I guess. You get attached to beautifull football, that is why I support Barca and Arsenal. :)

I too would prefer to watch Barca. Entertaining play for me doesn't dictate how great the club is though. We just agree to disagree I guess. However, i'd like to ask one question. What club do you think is the greatest club ever (and I don't mean your favourite club)?

Like I said, I think entertainment value is very important, so I go with Ajax, having in mind that I don`t take into consideration what happened before the seventees. Sorry. Could be biased a bit, but this is really my opinion. We were high quality, attractive playing, football innovating and responsible for forthbringing some of the worlds best players. Which is yours? Real Madrid? They won the most.

But it is difficult to say who is the best of all time, more teams had succesfull eras. Real Madrid, AC Milan, Liverpool, Barcelona are no peanuts either ofcourse.

This wasn't necessarily directed at you. I was just saying that while Barca fans could reasonably slag off plenty of other clubs, there are some that they should be careful of slagging. Bayern being one of them. I was also saying that IMO the only club's fans who could get away with slagging off other clubs are Real Madrid's.

Because they won the most trophees? You should know reading my posts here that is not the standard I use for making comparisons or forming opinions. :D

VivaBarcaInter

12-15-2002, 08:20 PM

Ummmm....why would that be? It's obvious that most people on this particular board consider Barca to be the biggest club on Earth. IF we were so inclined, we would be able to slag anyone. But I haven't seen much slagging, of Bayern or anyone else.

It seems to me ( I may be wrong though) that the crux of the matter is that you think

A) In sporting terms at least, Bayern are the equal of Barca

B) You would trade the Nou Camp for Bayern's Trophy count.

I'm not too sure what you mean on the first point. In terms of current squad, Bayern have a considerably superior squad to us. But to me that has little relevance to overall club size. After all, that great assembled squad at Bayern this season has so far won the same as us this season. If you mean players of past and present, there will always be arguments and debates as to who was better than who, better forwards, bigger legends and so on. But I don't think there's any doubt that the weight of fan belief in is our favour, in terms of neutrals. I don't know many who would think that Beckenbauer Rumminege et al, as great as they are, can match up to Kubala, Maradona, Cruyff ect.

I'm even more confused by this second thing. I suppose it boils down to personal priorities as a fan, which I understand. We all have our own thoughts on this subject. But I, personally, wouldn't trade the Nou Camp for 100 Champions League wins. If you just mean CL wins, don't think you think it would be a bit...."cheap" to trade the Nou Camp for 3 more CLs? If you just mean trophies overall, It makes more sense but not enough for me.

My information may not be correct, but I looked hard so we'll work with it dammit!

Bayern have won 17 league titles and 10 German Cups. 4 European Cups, 1 UEFA Cup and one Cup Winners Cup. They've also won the Intercontinental cup twice and their League cup 4 times. 39

Barca have won 16 Leagues, 24 cups, 1 European Cup, 4 Cup Winners Cups, 3 UEFA cups, 2 European Super Cups, and if you want to count them, 2 League Cups. 50, if you don't count the league cups.

We've won more, by a bit of a distance. If you have a personal preference to what trophies mean more to you, then that's your prerogative. I personally just want to win trophies, regardless of what they are.

soccer fanatic

12-15-2002, 08:26 PM

Than Rosenborg would be the best in the world. :)
They won like for the 8(?) time in a row the national league.
8 trophies in 8 years, how many did we win?

I know what you mean, but the CL is the biggest trophy in the world, so that should count heavier, although 30 years ago it was easier to win, a lot less matches. On the other hand it was more difficult too qualify, you exactly had to be a champion too ecter the champions league. Fourth wasn`t good enough back then.

Olesen10

12-15-2002, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA

However, i'd like to ask one question. What club do you think is the greatest club ever (and I don't mean your favourite club)?

If you ask me, I'd answer Real Madrid. If you look at their trophys and comare 'em to anyone other, they are greatest, but that doesn't necessarily means they've played the most beautiful football! I don't think RM ever had a team like Barca's "El Dream Team" or a team like Man Utd.'s when they won the triple. They can have as many star players as they want, but when those starplayers doesn't know how to play in a team, they aren't great IMO. RM has, on the paper, the best team in the world right now, but you can't say they look like a dream team when you wath 'em play, can you? :rolleyes:

funky6

12-15-2002, 09:07 PM

Bayern have won 17 league titles and 10 German Cups. 4 European Cups, 1 UEFA Cup and one Cup Winners Cup. They've also won the Intercontinental cup twice and their League cup 4 times. 39

Barca have won 16 Leagues, 24 cups, 1 European Cup, 4 Cup Winners Cups, 3 UEFA cups, 2 European Super Cups, and if you want to count them, 2 League Cups. 50, if you don't count the league cups.

I wouldn't even trade MiniEstadi to get this trophy case.

Zul:If there's a team that has been slagged in this thread it's FCBarcelona like it was a Blackburn Rovers side with 5 cups.

Soccerfanatic:So in your opinion Barça won 17 trophys?Cause i'm proud for all the 57 of them and i know there are less than few Clubs in Europe that have the potential to make their trophys more than Barça can their.

About the greatest Club of the world?I think it's Barça.We have been through sh*t no team in this earth have faced.Stolen players,bans,unfairly decisions and we are the only Club in Europe to have had a member of it killed by fascists.President Sunyol in case someone doesn't know it,but we still are there massive,proud and having won many trophys.

If you want it about trophys,football etc only i think it's hard to decide between Juve,Milan,,Ajax,Barça,Bayern and Liverpool.Consistent presence in Europian competitions and domestic success.

Madrid?I wouldn't like to talk about one of the worst cases in the history of sports.It's a personal issue of any person of who to support and admire.It's like admiring Darth Vader for his power.I personally always hated the ones that were given power instead of others in this world.I see it generally.I think these ppl have twisted the history of European football but i guess i sound like a weirdo in 2002.Look at their trophycase!And they got Zidane:rolleyes:

soccer fanatic

12-15-2002, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by funky6

Soccerfanatic:So in your opinion Barça won 17 trophys?Cause i'm proud for all the 57 of them and i know there are less than few Clubs in Europe that have the potential to make their trophys more than Barça can their.

If this refering to my comment with Rosenborg than you misunderstood, I made that comparison because Rosenborg plays in a clearly minor league. Barca clearly doesn`t. Ofcourse you are proud of all your trophees, so am I.

About the greatest Club of the world?I think it's Barça.We have been through sh*t no team in this earth have faced.Stolen players,bans,unfairly decisions and we are the only Club in Europe to have had a member of it killed by fascists.President Sunyol in case someone doesn't know it,but we still are there massive,proud and having won many trophys.

Perhaps,because Barca had such a difficult but rich history it is so loved and are fans so proud on Barca. Most clubs go through rough times though.

If you want it about trophys,football etc only i think it's hard to decide between Juve,Milan,,Ajax,Barça,Bayern and Liverpool.Consistent presence in Europian competitions and domestic success.

because there are good and bad periods with all those teams, and there are more than one way to judge. It is always personal.

BLAUGRANA

12-15-2002, 09:36 PM

LVG is gone! Well, probably. After tonight's result he could be sacked. If he isn't, i'm sure they will if the next game is the same. :worried:

relejado

12-15-2002, 09:44 PM

wow...0:3 down at home...against sevilla...:eek: ....i don't know what to say...i just can't belive that...

barça

12-15-2002, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA
LVG is gone! Well, probably. After tonight's result he could be sacked. If he isn't, i'm sure they will if the next game is the same. :worried:

I sure hope so and along with him, and more importantly, the clown Gaspart. I am never a fan of changing the coach in the middle of the season, but Van Gall is so stubborn that he deserves it. Can you believe sending Dani up front, and leaving Chirtanval alone with DeBoer back, when Puyol went forward? Suicidal and they did manage to kill themselves.

soccer fanatic

12-15-2002, 09:57 PM

Still a fan of him and always will be for obvious reasons, but he should go. I don`t see him getting back from this. :)

Can`t believe I just said that. :(
What is wrong with him? Did he loose confidence after the Dutch NT catastrophy?

funky6

12-15-2002, 11:03 PM

I think he's already out but the question is who's in?After what i 've seen even Rexack would be better now.Besides acting crazy he's a whole negative vibe.I hope JG follows him.

HUMILLIATION

Azerkid

12-15-2002, 11:15 PM

I dont understand LVG's tactics, why in the hell did he play Xavi (Central Mid) and Kluivert (Striker) on the wings? He put Kluivert in Overmars' postion, and started Dani instead of Saviola. He also played Motta, a winger, in the center, he could have atleast started Rochemback in the center. And to top everything off, he substituted Mendieta (a pure mid) for Christianval, why not Reiziger or Cocu?

VivaBarcaInter

12-16-2002, 12:29 AM

I didn't get his tactics either. Dani spent most of the game out on the right wing.

But amusingly enough, I don't blame him that much for this crushing defeat. Admittedly, the way the team was set out left Kluivert without service against 2 guys, but there are many reasons why we lost that Van Gaal couldn't fix.

1) MORE injuries. Puyol got a knock which eventually led to his substitution. Same with Navarro.

2) The referee didn't help. While I don't want to seem like the sort of person that always blames the ref (although I probably am), The penalty decision obviously changed the game, and even Jerry Armstrong could see the foul was outside the box. Plus, anytime Overmars or later Saviola got running, Sevilla players would physically try to remove their shirts.

3) Our players just can't do it for some reason. Riquelme gets the ball and trys to spray passes, but watching games you see he has trouble spotting anyone to pass to. There isn't a lot of movement up front, precious little on the left wing, and nothing on the right. There's nowhere for Riquelme and Xavi to hit the ball. Which is scandalous on the Nou Camp pitch, considering it's one of the largest playing surfaces, if not THE largest, in football. At home we should be using the wings (which for me would involve a player like Geovanni, instead of sticking Central forward Dani out on the right). Motta just doesn't seem to offer......well, anything. Frankly, I'm amazed he hasn't recieved more reds to go with his Sociedad one. He Is supposed to have a great left foot, yet rarely shoots or hits a long pass. And if we are playing with only ONE centre forward, we need the midfielders to get in the box and shoot.

Maybe Van Gaal just doesn't know what to do, or have what it takes. Even when he was successful at Barca, he had a hugely talented squad. A phrase I read was "winning by default rather than design".

barça

12-16-2002, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Azerkid
I dont understand LVG's tactics, why in the hell did he play Xavi (Central Mid) and Kluivert (Striker) on the wings? He put Kluivert in Overmars' postion, and started Dani instead of Saviola. He also played Motta, a winger, in the center, he could have atleast started Rochemback in the center. And to top everything off, he substituted Mendieta (a pure mid) for Christianval, why not Reiziger or Cocu?

Azerkid.

Your positions and stats are not correct. LVG did start Dani in for Saviola but the rest of your info is wrong.

Kluivert played up front, Motta was on the left wing right behind Overmars, Xavi was in the middle, diagonally behind Riquelme, Dani played up on the right with Puyol behind him. LVG had a defense of three De Boer, Christanval and Navarro.

Mendieta came in for the injured Puyol, not for Christanval (unfortunately, Chirstanval played the whole game) Saviola came in for Dani and Gabri for the injured Navarro.

Cocu wasn't even on the list of elegible players with an injury.

No matter how you look at it, a disaster to leave De Boer, Christanval and Navarro by themselves, they are not fast nor good enough to do it.

Juan

12-16-2002, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by funky6
Madrid?I wouldn't like to talk about one of the worst cases in the history of sports.It's a personal issue of any person of who to support and admire.It's like admiring Darth Vader for his power.

You don´t know the power of the Dark Side *loud breathing noises*

Atalla

12-16-2002, 02:47 PM

i Think it's about time that the fans started to express thier grief.. Louis Van gaal and Gespart must go... 3-0 and 13th place is a disaster... this is one of the most prestigious clubs in history, and it has been brought down on it's knees.. this is a farce... 1-0 to RECREIATIVO??? WTF?? who agrees with me that this should call for the resignation of both LVG and gespart?? let's take a tally and see who feels that they should both leave or both stay?

LuisEnrique

12-16-2002, 02:49 PM

LVG & Gaspart are not hard enough for barça , I think Koeman-Bassat or Capello - Bassat is the best combination

barça

12-16-2002, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by LuisEnrique
LVG & Gaspart are not hard enough for barça , I think Koeman-Bassat or Capello - Bassat is the best combination

Please don't say Capello, I don't want him at Barcelona, he can go wherever but Barcelona.

No Capello, No Cuper, No Van Gaal, I had enough of these guys that think they have to the starts.

LuisEnrique

12-16-2002, 03:18 PM

Capello is a defensive coach, that's what barça needs

relejado

12-16-2002, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by LuisEnrique
LVG & Gaspart are not hard enough for barça , I think Koeman-Bassat or Capello - Bassat is the best combination

although i'm extremly disappointed, i think, it wouldn't be the best solution to sack LVG and gaspart NOW. that would bring to much chaos into the club. let's give them time till the end of this season and see what they can do...it can't get any worse...i hope.

BTW, welcome to this board luisenrique !!

relejado

12-16-2002, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by LuisEnrique
LVG & Gaspart are not hard enough for barça , I think Koeman-Bassat or Capello - Bassat is the best combination

koeman...capello...now ??? they're both under contract...let's stay realistic guys...

relejado

12-16-2002, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by LuisEnrique
Capello is a defensive coach, that's what barça needs

i can't agree...we don't need a defensive coach. barca has to play attacking football !

Olesen10

12-16-2002, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA
LVG is gone! Well, probably. After tonight's result he could be sacked. If he isn't, i'm sure they will if the next game is the same. :worried:

I don't know, I kinda like LVG and his tactics, but if we're not winning something has to happen. And that might be sacking him. But why not only choose Gaspart in stead of both, and see we're we headed at first?

My opinion: Sack Gaspart, keep LVG and see what happens with a new president...

funky6

12-16-2002, 05:58 PM

Guys the problem from now on is not about Van Gaal's tactics only.It's that his presence in the bench is bad for the squad's moral and teams unity.It's not difficult to understand that no matter what Gaspart says Van Gaal is a temporary Barça coach

I think that even Rexack could do better from now on in the Liga.It's an issue about moral too.Then we see about a new coach(not guys like Capelo or Cuper,Barça means attacking football)

LuisEnrique welcome!:)

barça

12-16-2002, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Olesen10

I don't know, I kinda like LVG and his tactics, but if we're not winning something has to happen. And that might be sacking him. But why not only choose Gaspart in stead of both, and see we're we headed at first?

My opinion: Sack Gaspart, keep LVG and see what happens with a new president...

I also don't like changing the coach nor the President during the season, but this is not a normal situation.

Van Gaal is so arrogant (more everyday) that he does not even feel that his club is in trouble. Today he said "look at the CL record" Well I am looking, but I am also looking at La Liga and his stupid insistance that De Boer is playing well.

Gaspart is no a person deserving of being President of this club, never was and never will be. I can think of too many instances where he brought the club down, he must go.

J R R

12-16-2002, 06:42 PM

totally agree with you barca
they both have to go so we are doing well in CL but we still have
inter to beat :eek: and newcastle away i hate to say this but we will struggle to get further in CL and 13th in la liga is crap
so yeah id say they should go especially gaspart he is responsible for our financial mess too
but i read that he will not resign, he wont sack VG and VG wont
resign either
do we need to be relagated before Gaspart will go?

BLAUGRANA

12-17-2002, 01:56 AM

Here are some of the players' views on the current situation and exactly who is to blame. This from the club's official website:

Frank de Boer

"When we play as poorly as we did tonight, it's the players who have to own up, not the manager. He did everything possible to prepare us as well as possible for the game."

"We didn't play well. It's quite tough to prepare yourself for a game after playing in midweek -Seville had all week to prepare this game."

Puyol

"I can't understand how we play so well in Europe, but don't perform in the Spanish League. The only thing I can tell you is that we prepare all the games in the same way. It's the players who've got to turn this around. We're all really down, but we won't let our heads drop and we've just got to work hard to solve the situation."

Riquelme

"It's never good to lose at home. We're on a bad run in the league and today we didn't play well. We know we've got to get out of this and the first thing is to win next weekend's game."

"It's the players who decide the game and we're just not performing."

Bonano

"You try to look for explanations, but you can't find them. I don't think we could do any worse even if we tried."

"We played badly and never came near the level we showed in midweek."

"I wouldn't even think about the boss leaving. I think the worrying thing is the level we've played at in a number of games -it's the players who count, it's us who go out there and play. All the players are aware that we're responsible for this situation."

BLAUGRANA

12-17-2002, 02:03 AM

Luis Enrique has come out in support of embattled boss LVG. Yet another player backing the boss in this crisis. Here are his comments:

"I believe that he is the right trainer to get us away from this situation, because he knows the squad and what the players can do.

"In addition, the team trusts him."

BLAUGRANA

12-17-2002, 02:26 AM

This from Sky:

Puyol

"The players are the ones who go out on to the field. We have the maximum responsibility because we are the ones who have put ourselves in this situation," said the 24-year-old.

"The solution is not changing the manager."

Puyol admitted he was at a loss to explain the Jekyll and Hyde nature of the team, as excellent performances in Europe this campaign have been overshadowed by their league woes.

He added: "I don't have an answer to explain why we have done so well in the Champions League and have not done the same in the league.

"We prepare for league games in the same way as European games. The only thing I know is that we try to give everything on the pitch.

"We are not happy with where we are, but we must not let our heads drop."

Frank De Boer

"I feel very bad," he said. "When you play like that it is not the trainer's fault.

"The boss prepares well for every game, it's us (the players) who are not carrying out what he tells us to."

BLAUGRANA

12-17-2002, 04:52 AM

What a mess we're in, huh?

Well, as for I STILL am backing LVG. We were in a very similar situation in 98 and we won the league. I don't think we'll win the league this time, but we can recover.

Also, I don't see very many good options around to replace LVG at this point. I'd take Rexach if we sack LVG or he resigns. I think that he knows the squad better than any other options and that it'd be less a shock to the system. After the season though, Rexach would have to go.

In terms of a long term replacement, I don't know who I'd take. I don't know if Koeman would come this soon. I'd take him if he did. Bianchi would be an option IMO, but I don't know if he'd succeed. If he didn't, I'd be all over him like the people who are all over LVG. I don't want Capello at all. I respect him for what he's achieved and think he's a good manager. I just don't think he'd do well at Barca.

Sorry, but I'm tired and it's late. I just wanna say that I still think everyone is hitting the panic button too prematurely and that LVG isn't completely to blame. I'd rather he stayed and we sent Gaspart packing. Unfortunately, I think their fortunes are tied together. Kinda ironic.

Força Barça

12-17-2002, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by AZULGRANA
[B]What a mess we're in, huh?

Well, as for I STILL am backing LVG. We were in a very similar situation in 98 and we won the league. I don't think we'll win the league this time, but we can recover.

That year we won the league with an incredible 4 games to spare, but a few key things allowed it to happen:-

- the other liga teams weren't as competitive as it is now. back then there were 5-6 good teams... nowadays there are 4-5 excellent teams and 7-8 good teams. Yes we will recover Azul and soon we'll surely make a run but it's unlikely to be as successful as 99 :(

- we were out of UCL by Christmas98 with that Man Utd 3-3 draw on day5. Every league game in the 2nd half of the season the team had a week to prepare (which the current coach and players crave and even use it to explain how the weaker teams are able to withstand Barça). This year, our Feb-April schedule will be a distraction, especially the pair of Inter clashes, and if we're in 1/4 finals.

- they acquired the de Boer brothers in Jan99 and it worked like a double-dose of tequilas. They started almost every game, they were revelations and coincided with the teams new found confidence (or they arguably contributed towards it big time). Back then, Barça could splash out $22mil for a pair of twins just to save their domestic season, but this time round a lot less $$$ is there to be spent :( But doesn't mean they should stop looking for emergency signings...

- Guardiola came back just after Christmas. The inspiration captain came back, the team started winning and became more organised. What a fairytale :) I see (hope) the same happens this time round when Luis Enrique comes back in 2003!!

Also, I don't see very many good options around to replace LVG at this point. I'd take Rexach if we sack LVG or he resigns. I think that he knows the squad better than any other options and that it'd be less a shock to the system. After the season though, Rexach would have to go.

In terms of a long term replacement, I don't know who I'd take. I don't know if Koeman would come this soon. I'd take him if he did. Bianchi would be an option IMO, but I don't know if he'd succeed. If he didn't, I'd be all over him like the people who are all over LVG. I don't want Capello at all. I respect him for what he's achieved and think he's a good manager. I just don't think he'd do well at Barca.

Ah ha, if Rexach comes back then all the best to him, but it will confirm how the club's management is going backwards. He was still a coach only 6 months ago, got replaced and now he's back. (Same story with van Gaal. gone 3 years ago, and came back. Rather than thinking he shouldn't have been re-hired, I strongly believe he shouldn't have been let go in the first place.)

Yes Koeman is probably a year or two away. He's doing too well in Ajax for him to leave this year.

Bianchi looks to be the best option out of the ones available in mid-season. Of course we'll never know but he will have a good chance to succeed based on track record and past tv-docs we've seen about how he positively treats his players.

Azerkid

12-17-2002, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by barça

Azerkid.

Your positions and stats are not correct. LVG did start Dani in for Saviola but the rest of your info is wrong.

Kluivert played up front, Motta was on the left wing right behind Overmars, Xavi was in the middle, diagonally behind Riquelme, Dani played up on the right with Puyol behind him. LVG had a defense of three De Boer, Christanval and Navarro.

Mendieta came in for the injured Puyol, not for Christanval (unfortunately, Chirstanval played the whole game) Saviola came in for Dani and Gabri for the injured Navarro.

Cocu wasn't even on the list of elegible players with an injury.

No matter how you look at it, a disaster to leave De Boer, Christanval and Navarro by themselves, they are not fast nor good enough to do it.

I got my line-up at soccerage.com and thats what it exactly said :(

http://www.soccerage.com/en/09/g7198.html

barça

12-17-2002, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by Azerkid

I got my line-up at soccerage.com and thats what it exactly said :(

http://www.soccerage.com/en/09/g7198.html

I had never seen the web site, I kind of like the way they show it, its a shame it was wrong. I wonder where they get their info!!

BLAUGRANA

12-18-2002, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by Força Barça

That year we won the league with an incredible 4 games to spare, but a few key things allowed it to happen:-

- the other liga teams weren't as competitive as it is now. back then there were 5-6 good teams... nowadays there are 4-5 excellent teams and 7-8 good teams. Yes we will recover Azul and soon we'll surely make a run but it's unlikely to be as successful as 99 :(

- we were out of UCL by Christmas98 with that Man Utd 3-3 draw on day5. Every league game in the 2nd half of the season the team had a week to prepare (which the current coach and players crave and even use it to explain how the weaker teams are able to withstand Barça). This year, our Feb-April schedule will be a distraction, especially the pair of Inter clashes, and if we're in 1/4 finals.

- they acquired the de Boer brothers in Jan99 and it worked like a double-dose of tequilas. They started almost every game, they were revelations and coincided with the teams new found confidence (or they arguably contributed towards it big time). Back then, Barça could splash out $22mil for a pair of twins just to save their domestic season, but this time round a lot less $$$ is there to be spent :( But doesn't mean they should stop looking for emergency signings...

- Guardiola came back just after Christmas. The inspiration captain came back, the team started winning and became more organised. What a fairytale :) I see (hope) the same happens this time round when Luis Enrique comes back in 2003!!

Very good points. I don't think we'll win the league by any means. However, I do think we can still get a Uefa Cup spot and possibly even the 4th CL spot.